The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Mr Popodopolous]

As for Stoke, footballing dinousaurs such as Pulis and Neil fit your club well.

Chippy fans, dodgy (FFP Covid wise) finances, owners who help contribute to gambling issues in the UK by running Bet365- while certainly not as bad as Aston Villa a club to be proud of for sure!

Edited October 1, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[WarksRobin]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

As for Stoke, footballing dinousaurs such as Pulis and Neil fit your club well.

Chippy fans, dodgy (FFP Covid wise) finances, owners who help contribute to gambling issues in the UK by running Bet365- while certainly not as bad as Aston Villa a club to be proud of for sure!

Makes you wonder whether the HS2 chairperson supports villa….

[Rob26]

On 29/09/2023 at 17:32, Mr Popodopolous said:

Looked into it a bit further.

HS2 went through 10 percent of Aston Villa's Training Ground according to a 2016 report.

Was stated as 2 pitches.

Can someone begin to align the compensation and the speed of payment to commercial value here...?

£14.4m in 2018-19 alone and up to or pushing £20m across the piece.

10 pct..Bodymoor Heath would have to have been worth £144-200m surely??

yeah 10% of the original value before hs2 went past you get a payment for as the development will reduce your property value by a similar value, so this will be the value of 10% of the property's value that they keep. So looks like they are being forced to also sell 10% of the land, so they will keep 90% and get a payment for 10% of the original value of that 90% of the land.

then they are also due payment for the land (10%) they are being forced to sell to allow it to pass through the site. usually compulsory purchases like this are the value of the land bought, plus 10% compensation for doing so. 

that news article below looks like they are wanting to enhance the money claiming how much they have spent on the land that will need to be redone, so they spent 9m so a portion of that they are claiming is recoverable as well. 

19 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Found a bit more on it.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/aston-villa-line-hs2-compensation-9250409#amp-readmore-target

Spent £9m upgrading apparently. Compensation nearly double.

Then it states 10 pct of the training the ground.

Plus the speed and privileged access- House of Lords HS2 Select Committee etc.

I wish they'd gone bust in all honesty. Or at least into admin.

I bet you probs get a cash revenue boost for the sale and compo of the training ground to your revenue for ffp, but then you need to spend a big chunk on alterations due to the hs2 going through the site but these are all infrastructure based costs so do not cause a negative draw on your new revenue. 

if its the money your due, then they just like anyone else I think you should get what you deserve, sucks it looks like it will help them out with ffp but is revenue after all, just unfortunate that they will be able to spend against this and it shouldn't come off their budgets.

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

yeah 10% of the original value before hs2 went past you get a payment for as the development will reduce your property value by a similar value, so this will be the value of 10% of the property's value that they keep. So looks like they are being forced to also sell 10% of the land, so they will keep 90% and get a payment for 10% of the original value of that 90% of the land.

then they are also due payment for the land (10%) they are being forced to sell to allow it to pass through the site. usually compulsory purchases like this are the value of the land bought, plus 10% compensation for doing so. 

that news article below looks like they are wanting to enhance the money claiming how much they have spent on the land that will need to be redone, so they spent 9m so a portion of that they are claiming is recoverable as well. 

I bet you probs get a cash revenue boost for the sale and compo of the training ground to your revenue for ffp, but then you need to spend a big chunk on alterations due to the hs2 going through the site but these are all infrastructure based costs so do not cause a negative draw on your new revenue. 

if its the money your due, then they just like anyone else I think you should get what you deserve, sucks it looks like it will help them out with ffp but is revenue after all, just unfortunate that they will be able to spend against this and it shouldn't come off their budgets.

It already helped with FFP tbh, in 2019 especially to the tune of the analysis is right of £14.4m and £3m. It added this to their headroom.

Think it was £20m across 2017-18, 2018-19 and 2019-20.

They seemed to get some privileged access ie the Select Committee stuff.

The speed of payment is over and above many ordinary people and businesses I expect.

Infrastructure expenditure is excluded from FFP, always has been but this woukd have counted in full as "Exceptional" income at the time. Very useful...

The land value in that area would be interesting, at the very least the speed of settlement...seems a puzzle. The privileged access.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Btw @Norfolkandchance

Do tell your mates on the Oatcake that the future new financial regs may well be tighter and face more of an emphasis on own revenue with the 70 pct rule.

If still at this level in a few years I'm sure you'll love that Stoke.  I remember the 2019 your CEO moaning about FFP, the arrogance.

Turnover and of that:

It'll affect many clubs but we are more or less in line with it now. Far from sure Stoke can say the same about the new regs, the current regs absolutely yes.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2023/09/supporters-charter-group-statement-290923

Not quite finance this but interesting from a Governance perspective.

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2023/08/03/call-for-hs2-to-release-compensation-figures-amid-fears-scheme-is-costing-communities-livelihoods/

Says many are yet to receive compensation and I assume it will have been for much lower amounts. 

Aston Villa though, paid several years ago and got to testify to HS2 committee etc. Disgusting.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Birmingham 2022-23 accounts. The excellent Al Majir who has been seeking to hold their owners to account for years.

https://almajir.net/2023/10/03/bsh-accounts-analysis-2023/

Estimated pre tax loss of £25m, I reckon £24-25m personally as it's hard to say for sure given HK$ but that could easily be aggregated pre tax losses of £49-50m across 2021-22 and 2022-23.

My best estimates are that a pre tax loss exceeding £6.5-7.5m and FFP could well be breached this year.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Looks like Leeds are doubling down, indeed Burnley  Leeds and Leicester with the whole suing over FFP thing.

https://www.leedsallover.com/leeds-united-aiming-to-bank-100m-from-premier-league-legal-dispute-with-written-letter-emerging-report/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12588331/Leeds-Leicester-Burnley-write-Evertons-future-owners-777-Partners-tell-sue-club-300m-guilty-breaking-Premier-League-spending-rules.html

Everton fans of course are laughing, dismissing it as an agenda or impossible.

Of that I'd say only one out of Leicester and Burnley have a case. Leeds finished 19th so no save for prize momey gap between 18th and 19th.

Then it depends exactly which period was failed, the period ending 2021 or the period ending 2022. If is the former then Burnley, if the latter then Leicester!

Edited October 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Looks like Leeds are doubling down, indeed Burnley  Leeds and Leicester with the whole suing over FFP thing.

https://www.leedsallover.com/leeds-united-aiming-to-bank-100m-from-premier-league-legal-dispute-with-written-letter-emerging-report/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12588331/Leeds-Leicester-Burnley-write-Evertons-future-owners-777-Partners-tell-sue-club-300m-guilty-breaking-Premier-League-spending-rules.html

Everton fans of course are laughing, dismissing it as an agenda or impossible.

Of that I'd say only one out of Leicester and Burnley have a case. Leeds finished 19th so no save for prize momey gap between 18th and 19th.

Then it depends exactly which period was failed, the period ending 2021 or the period ending 2022. If is the former then Burnley, if the latter then Leicester!

they may be arguing all periods were in breech until the facts are established legally.

no doubt they will have to give some of the relegated teams hand outs, wonder how much tho, very interesting. 

plus would that put them in breach again payin out 10s of millions compo

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

they may be arguing all periods were in breech until the facts are established legally.

no doubt they will have to give some of the relegated teams hand outs, wonder how much tho, very interesting. 

plus would that put them in breach again payin out 10s of millions compo

That's fair, I'm trying to work on precedent. That would make sense.

If found guilty then how it works in the League is th at the prior periods are reset ie let's apply the same to the PL.

If Everton guilty and lost I dunno after FF0 and Covid deductions:

£15m, £70m and £22m to 2021, to reset would be:

£35m, £22m and therefore the adjusted Upper Loss in 2022 could not exceed £48m. As in £35m it remains at that, above only the amount to £35m remains and if below £35m, only that adjusted loss is included.

Hence why I think it is one or the other.

I should add if it was Burnley who benefit ie Everton should have been docked in 2021-22, then Leeds would only have a claim IMO for Prize Money gap between 16th and 17th. A fascinating test case however.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[AnAstonVillafan]

19 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2023/08/03/call-for-hs2-to-release-compensation-figures-amid-fears-scheme-is-costing-communities-livelihoods/

Says many are yet to receive compensation and I assume it will have been for much lower amounts. 

Aston Villa though, paid several years ago and got to testify to HS2 committee etc. Disgusting.

Let it go Mr Popodopolous.

 

Let it go.

 

We did nothing wrong.

 

Reading, Wednesday and Derby have all been destroyed. What more do you want ? HS2 took nealy a quarter of our traning ground. The recompense is fair.

 

Onwards and Upwards for us. New Stand. European football. Tangible progression.

Good time to be a Villa fan right now.

 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

Let it go Mr Popodopolous.

 

Let it go.

 

We did nothing wrong.

 

Reading, Wednesday and Derby have all been destroyed. What more do you want ? HS2 took nealy a quarter of our traning ground. The recompense is fair.

 

Onwards and Upwards for us. New Stand. European football. Tangible progression.

Good time to be a Villa fan right now.

 

 

 

On one level there is some merit to your post, on another there seem to be some outrageous swings of fortune- see the failure to switch Hawkeye on in 2020.

The fact that the rules were changed to allow Fixed Asset Profits in 2016, without that Aston Villa woukd surely have broken P&S. £36m profit on Villa Park and the aforementioned HS2.

The speed of settlement seems out of keeping with the experience of many and you can bet a large majority wouldn't get to speak to an HS2 Committee.

A report said 10 pct, you say closer to a quarter? The workings would be interesting. I doubt HS2 are FOIable however.

By the way Aston Villa are far from the only one to utilise Fixed Asset loopholes- Birmingham, Derby, Reading, Sheffield Wednesday, Stoke and I think even Blackburn did the Training Ground but without it...hmm.

Those 3 for what they did got what they deserved but it's not good enough for some to be pursued but not everyone. I still have a significant problem with Stoke.  Hope Everton get a nice deduction too.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'm sure the PL would never refer Aston Villa to even analyse the 3 years to 2019 under the right to go back and analyse btw:

1) Prince William high up in FA- supports Aston Villa.

2) Richard Masters head of PL- supports Aston Villa (so I've read anyway).

Edited October 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

20 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

On one level there is some merit to your post, on another there seem to be some outrageous swings of fortune- see the failure to switch Hawkeye on in 2020.

The fact that the rules were changed to allow Fixed Asset Profits in 2016, without that Aston Villa woukd surely have broken P&S. £36m profit on Villa Park and the aforementioned HS2.

The speed of settlement seems out of keeping with the experience of many and you can bet a large majority wouldn't get to speak to an HS2 Committee.

A report said 10 pct, you say closer to a quarter? The workings would be interesting. I doubt HS2 are FOIable however.

By the way Aston Villa are far from the only one to utilise Fixed Asset loopholes- Birmingham, Derby, Reading, Sheffield Wednesday, Stoke and I think even Blackburn did the Training Ground but without it...hmm.

Those 3 for what they did got what they deserved but it's not good enough for some to be pursued but not everyone. I still have a significant problem with Stoke.  Hope Everton get a nice deduction too.

land sales was defs a loophole but a legal one so even if we frown upon it if them clubs not broke the rules then you cannot blame them for taking advantage of it,

league/uefa when implementing the FFP should of had some accountants look at their rules they wanted to put in place and said your club x your making a 70m loss this season and breaching ffp, how do you game the system

but the clubs that got punished got punished for other factors other than selling stadiums for ffp, they did sell the stadiums but had other factors why they got punished as the stadium sales were deemed fine, like sheff wed literally back dated the sale by around a year to stay within FFP but the land registry showed they had lied, derby was for administration mainly, the stadium part was cleared on ffp but players values was not etc

i don't buy into a hs2 villa conspiracy to give them money and keep them in ffp, I just think they have clearly benefited from it, but it is the rules so they not done anything wrong. With the speed of the deal going through maybe Villa had a lot more leverage in the deal than many other people do, with them flagging up they had 10m of costs that could not be cancelled that would be ruined if the purchase was forced through I'm guessing the hs2 project may have been keen to get a settlement sorted sooner than later before more money was spent on the development on what would essentially be abortive construction works

 

[AnAstonVillafan]

On 03/10/2023 at 20:03, Mr Popodopolous said:

On one level there is some merit to your post, on another there seem to be some outrageous swings of fortune- see the failure to switch Hawkeye on in 2020.

The fact that the rules were changed to allow Fixed Asset Profits in 2016, without that Aston Villa woukd surely have broken P&S. £36m profit on Villa Park and the aforementioned HS2.

The speed of settlement seems out of keeping with the experience of many and you can bet a large majority wouldn't get to speak to an HS2 Committee.

A report said 10 pct, you say closer to a quarter? The workings would be interesting. I doubt HS2 are FOIable however.

By the way Aston Villa are far from the only one to utilise Fixed Asset loopholes- Birmingham, Derby, Reading, Sheffield Wednesday, Stoke and I think even Blackburn did the Training Ground but without it...hmm.

Those 3 for what they did got what they deserved but it's not good enough for some to be pursued but not everyone. I still have a significant problem with Stoke.  Hope Everton get a nice deduction too.

You must get of your head the idea that we badly broke the rules. We didn't. We did use a questionable (dodgy) loophole. But nothing more than that. The situation we are in today has nothing to do with that. We have differerent owners to when we overspent in (my opinion) in 2017.

We deserved promotion. And the club is being rebuilt. Personally I think its just being returned to where we should have been and maybe three seasons in the EFL were needed to clear out the deadwood, hangers on, poor owners and management.

As for the Hawkeye business, yes we got lucky with that. But in the very same season we had a legitimate goal outrageously disallowed vs Palace. An incorrect VAR decision when leading Arsenal in the last ten minutes, and a fraudulent penalty given to Man Utd at home when Fernandes fouled our player. No one ever talks about that. Just the Hawkeye decision. So, in my mind it evens out. A season is played over 38 games. Not one.

At the moment we are showing some ambition and trying to mix it at the top level without sovereign weath fund investment. Yes we have benefitted from the HS2 compensation but I'm not sure what you think a fairer way would be considering its a piece of farmland in the Warwickshire countryside owned by the club for nearly 50 years. It was £14.5m from the Government with the work costing £14m.  The youth teams and womens teams have had major benefit from the new digs.

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

You must get of your head the idea that we badly broke the rules. We didn't. We did use a questionable (dodgy) loophole. But nothing more than that. The situation we are in today has nothing to do with that. We have differerent owners to when we overspent in (my opinion) in 2017.

We deserved promotion. And the club is being rebuilt. Personally I think its just being returned to where we should have been and maybe three seasons in the EFL were needed to clear out the deadwood, hangers on, poor owners and management.

As for the Hawkeye business, yes we got lucky with that. But in the very same season we had a legitimate goal outrageously disallowed vs Palace. An incorrect VAR decision when leading Arsenal in the last ten minutes, and a fraudulent penalty given to Man Utd at home when Fernandes fouled our player. No one ever talks about that. Just the Hawkeye decision. So, in my mind it evens out. A season is played over 38 games. Not one.

At the moment we are showing some ambition and trying to mix it at the top level without sovereign weath fund investment. Yes we have benefitted from the HS2 compensation but I'm not sure what you think a fairer way would be considering its a piece of farmland in the Warwickshire countryside owned by the club for nearly 50 years. It was £14.5m from the Government with the work costing £14m.  The youth teams and womens teams have had major benefit from the new digs.

 

 

If it is so legitimate why did that loophole get closed again and why was it closed under the old FFP regs and why did UEFA never open it in any case. Very unusual that it was permitted for anyone at all. I alsi have a specific puzzle in that the £56.7m is shown as Loans Receivable as far down the line as 2021-22 which is unique in accounting treatment for any side who have done this.

The rules now expressly adjust out inclusion of Fixed Asset Profits on disposal as they did until 2016- and even shares in companies that own Fixed Assets..see the Reading case for an illustrative example and they were not permitted to include that under their Business Plan btw. Why was the Fixed Asset loophole opened in 2016 is a big unanswered question of the P&S era. Why was it opened..should it have been opened.

Without it Aston Villa would have been in serious P&S trouble yet mind you so would a host of others. What is your take on the initial and in UEFA case constant closure, the opening of it in 2016 and it finally being closed again in 2021? UEFA had the right idea I thought in never opening it anyway.

A fairer way could have been Aston Villa being in the same queue as everyone else, plenty still haven't received compensation, should there have been privileged access to the HS2 Committee? That's a matter of debate.

"Where you should be"? While Aston Villa clearly have a strong history that is debatable. No club anywhere a divine right to be anywhere. None.

Poor decisions are seen weekly, even ironically with VAR as the officials are dreadful. I often see the Crystal Palace goal cited, I must watch. Certain degree of hypocrisy though the reaction in the Leeds game the year was a disgrace, how Hourihane avoided a retrospective ban was tricky. Team threw a huge tantrum in April 2019 when Leeds played to the whistle, I would not have let Aston Villa or anyone walk it in personally.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

The reason it should never have been opened isn't sour grapes more:

1) It is a quick fix that can lead to longer term problems as it has in most instances. Derby etc albeit their trouble was about amortisation methods.

2) More technical. If Depreciation and Impairment of Tangible Assets is excluded, as well as purchase of Tangible Assets- Cash Flow, or indeed expenditure on it, Everton listed it separately below the Profit and Loss account, then it stands to reason that Profit on Disposal and Loss on Disposal of said assets should also be excluded.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[AnAstonVillafan]

20 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If it is so legitimate why did that loophole get closed again and why was it closed under the old FFP regs and why did UEFA never open it in any case. Very unusual that it was permitted for anyone at all. I alsi have a specific puzzle in that the £56.7m is shown as Loans Receivable as far down the line as 2021-22 which is unique in accounting treatment for any side who have done this.

The rules now expressly adjust out inclusion of Fixed Asset Profits on disposal as they did until 2016- and even shares in companies that own Fixed Assets..see the Reading case for an illustrative example and they were not permitted to include that under their Business Plan btw. Why was the Fixed Asset loophole opened in 2016 is a big unanswered question of the P&S era. Why was it opened..should it have been opened.

Without it Aston Villa would have been in serious P&S trouble yet mind you so would a host of others. What is your take on the initial and in UEFA case constant closure, the opening of it in 2016 and it finally being closed again in 2021? UEFA had the right idea I thought in never opening it anyway.

A fairer way could have been Aston Villa being in the same queue as everyone else, plenty still haven't received compensation, should there have been privileged access to the HS2 Committee? That's a matter of debate.

"Where you should be"? While Aston Villa clearly have a strong history that is debatable. No club anywhere a divine right to be anywhere. None.

Poor decisions are seen weekly, even ironically with VAR as the officials are dreadful. I often see the Crystal Palace goal cited, I must watch. Certain degree of hypocrisy though the reaction in the Leeds game the year was a disgrace, how Hourihane avoided a retrospective ban was tricky. Team threw a huge tantrum in April 2019 when Leeds played to the whistle, I would not have let Aston Villa or anyone walk it in personally.

The "where we should be" is my personal view. No club has a divine right to be in the PL. True.
However when a club like Aston Villa gets relegated they arent easliy going to give up and fall apart. Some do, but others use every asset, advantage they can to get back to the top.

I read most of the posts in this thread as an outsider who wishes Bristol City well, and you do spend a lot of time complaining about FFP and parachute payments. But I see Huddersfield, Brentford, Luton, Brighton, Forest and Leeds all get promoted without parachute payments.  While QPR, Watford, Huddersfield, Stoke, Middlesborough, Cardiff, Hull, Norwich and West Brom receive them but not come storming back, in fact a couple of those clubs are in serious trouble financially.

The loophole is/was poor. I dont agree with it. Without my guess is we'd be in dire straits. What saved Aston Villa really however was the change of ownership. Without that we'd have been in adminstration. If Spurs had simply offered fair market value for Jack Grealish, they'd have got him for a quarter of what City would eventually pay for him and we'd still be in the EFL, with owners draining money out of the club like what's happening at West Brom.

The HS2 money was spent on a training facility. Not new players. Some people havent received compensation, some have. There are uni buildings and office blocks being flattened right now in Birmingham to make way for HS2. Some of them less than 20 years old.

Conor Hourihane had every right to be pissed with those chancers at Leeds. If he got a three game ban, what difference does this make to the grand objective ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

The "where we should be" is my personal view. No club has a divine right to be in the PL. True.
However when a club like Aston Villa gets relegated they arent easliy going to give up and fall apart. Some do, but others use every asset, advantage they can to get back to the top.

I read most of the posts in this thread as an outsider who wishes Bristol City well, and you do spend a lot of time complaining about FFP and parachute payments. But I see Huddersfield, Brentford, Luton, Brighton, Forest and Leeds all get promoted without parachute payments.  While QPR, Watford, Huddersfield, Stoke, Middlesborough, Cardiff, Hull, Norwich and West Brom receive them but not come storming back, in fact a couple of those clubs are in serious trouble financially.

The loophole is/was poor. I dont agree with it. Without my guess is we'd be in dire straits. What saved Aston Villa really however was the change of ownership. Without that we'd have been in adminstration. If Spurs had simply offered fair market value for Jack Grealish, they'd have got him for a quarter of what City would eventually pay for him and we'd still be in the EFL, with owners draining money out of the club like what's happening at West Brom.

The HS2 money was spent on a training facility. Not new players. Some people havent received compensation, some have. There are uni buildings and office blocks being flattened right now in Birmingham to make way for HS2. Some of them less than 20 years old.

Conor Hourihane had every right to be pissed with those chancers at Leeds. If he got a three game ban, what difference does this make to the grand objective ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a fair post. Agree with most of.it...without the loophole a pot more sides would have failed FFP and bigger.

Stoke I still have a major issue with in truth. Covid also.

Yes Aston Villa are a major club I can't deny and no issue with the spending big per se. Even administration may not have been that big a disaster in the end despite -12, as debt cut and lessons moving forward maybe would have made Aston Villa attractive in a different way albeit to less than positive buyers- see Kirchner.

I suppose is a million dollar q is that had the 2016 rules remained in play-ie no Fixed Asset sale profit for P&S/FFP would the new owners have still invested even knowing that the vital loophole many clubs used was not applicable and that an undoubted hole faced them in the upcoming season.

Dread to think how much Derby fail by without it then they fail to 2019, 2020 (okay 2021)...2017 when accounts restated.

Maybe 2017, 2018, 2019 and the combined average of 2021 if accounts restated and no stadium sale.

As their accounts were maybe £23m to 2018, £15m to 2019 and probably given the projected surge in amortisation in 2020 another huge fail then. Could easily have been under their residual value model a P&S Loss of £50-55m in 2020 alone! That's before Covid.

Sheffield Wednesday probably fail at least once more without.

Stoke quite likely fail to 2021 or 2022 without.

Blackburn it's hard to say, they were quite marginal..their profit was £6-7m, then Covid allowance of £5m maybe they don't fail anyway.

Birmingham would have failed to 2019 and maybe but possibly not 2022. Not looked at them in depth for a while. Definitely 2019 however. If they sold Adams by end of June 2019 to compensate then the big player profit in 2020 is now lacking. Maybe Bellingham saves them anyway.

Reading would have failed bigger and sooner- they sold lots indeed. Old training ground, stadium and stadium again. Land around the ground..

The League would have had a very different look competitive balance wise between 2018 and 2021 when the loophole still in play. Both in terms of points off and Business Plans to prevent etc.. monitoring etc. Anything done in 2020-21 would still be relevant to 2023 due to the 3 years.

Cheating is fine to react badly to, but he scored in a play-off game...I do wonder if there was some leniency shown in terms of FA analysis given one of our players got a retrospective 4 gsme ban last year...consistency of rules applied. That said that's been an issue for years across mant clubs.

Watched the Lansbury goal in brief highlights and the decision looked soft tbh, the decision to disallow.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I won't labour the point much more but let's assume that the Fixed Assets loophole was shut hut the HS2 one permitted in 2018. I can run analysis on their clubs although Reading and Stoke are the other two main ones who maybe worse hit.

TV momey- down £12-13m in a hypothetical 2019-20, that was a starting point

As it played out, £11m down in HS2 revenue from 2018-19 to 2019-20 as the accounts showed.

No £36.374m in FFP profit.

I reckon in 2018-19 without it £30m or so would have to have been found. The pre tax loss was £68.3m minus £30m to Lerner , £13m in FFP allowances and promotion bonuses of about £15.8m.

The £30m hole to 2019.

Then into 2019-20, even if that filled, the TV money would be Championship down £11-12m, HS2 revenue down about £11m and think there was £10.4m in Profit on Disposal of Players.

Even if the club cut back and sell sufficiently to scrape to 2018-19, they are then hit by a triple whammy.

No Fixed Asset loophole and it genuinely would have been very interesting in 2019, 2020 and maybe beyond. Oh they would have had one of the top Championship incomes but it would have been very interesting to see the adjustment. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

On 05/10/2023 at 09:27, AnAstonVillafan said:

You must get of your head the idea that we badly broke the rules. We didn't. We did use a questionable (dodgy) loophole. But nothing more than that. The situation we are in today has nothing to do with that. We have differerent owners to when we overspent in (my opinion) in 2017.

We deserved promotion. And the club is being rebuilt. Personally I think its just being returned to where we should have been and maybe three seasons in the EFL were needed to clear out the deadwood, hangers on, poor owners and management.

As for the Hawkeye business, yes we got lucky with that. But in the very same season we had a legitimate goal outrageously disallowed vs Palace. An incorrect VAR decision when leading Arsenal in the last ten minutes, and a fraudulent penalty given to Man Utd at home when Fernandes fouled our player. No one ever talks about that. Just the Hawkeye decision. So, in my mind it evens out. A season is played over 38 games. Not one.

At the moment we are showing some ambition and trying to mix it at the top level without sovereign weath fund investment. Yes we have benefitted from the HS2 compensation but I'm not sure what you think a fairer way would be considering its a piece of farmland in the Warwickshire countryside owned by the club for nearly 50 years. It was £14.5m from the Government with the work costing £14m.  The youth teams and womens teams have had major benefit from the new digs.

 

 

you deserved getting relegated for selling us rudy gustede, although as a boro fan we deserved to get relegated for buying him

when we went last down first thing we done was blast most of the parachute payments under monk trying to do what newcastle did the year before, needless to say it didn't work out

I don't think there is many fans who will agree with loopholes that remove assets from the club to the owner, but if clubs take advantage of it to make FFP you I cannot hate on them - they will always operate within the rules in front of them. the anger should be directed towards the governing bodies that never had the foresight to consult with accountants and lawyers to anticipate what loopholes people would use to beat the system. at least they are closed now and they are making efforts to close other options as they come up too. people always think of new ways to get around authorities rules, I'm sure that they will be plenty of more fixes come out over the years that we haven't even thought about yet 

I do also think if the loopholes were not there for the land sales then maybe the clubs would still of passed FFP one way or another, I think they just would of had a different budget altogether and probs planned the land sales to create that budget rather than spending the money and thinking crap what can we do to fix this, hey lets sell the stadium etc

Edited October 9, 2023 by Rob26

[Mr Popodopolous]

[Mr Popodopolous]

This occasional Football writer is less than positive about Storey. We shall see..

[Bristol Rob]

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

This occasional Football writer is less than positive about Storey. We shall see..

Is he the fella behind the Rich Energy drink who sponsored the HAAS F1 Team?

[View from the Dolman]

10 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Is he the fella behind the Rich Energy drink who sponsored the HAAS F1 Team?

Yes. 

[CTIDhc]

58 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Is he the fella behind the Rich Energy drink who sponsored the HAAS F1 Team?

One of the biggest cowboys fathomable this is exceptionally bleak if he is cleared to be owning a football league club... 

 

A good video that summarises the shambles:

 

[Rob26]

On 11/10/2023 at 23:15, Mr Popodopolous said:

This occasional Football writer is less than positive about Storey. We shall see..

he's just been on talk sport, every reading fan response was out frying pan into the fire, and he seemed to dodge questions about lawsuits (although he said there was 8 cases, he won 7 and is on the front foot on the last one) and dodgy business dealings, he was all talk and sounded like he was gonna mostly borrow the money than use his own 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Rob26

[Rob26]

On 12/10/2023 at 08:30, CTIDhc said:

One of the biggest cowboys fathomable this is exceptionally bleak if he is cleared to be owning a football league club... 

 

A good video that summarises the shambles:

 

he still probs better than the current owners tho , saying that most people are :laugh:

[ExiledAjax]

https://pca.st/episode/3d278b3c-cf22-429e-8749-6bb1e4eb7511

Good special from PoF today. I've worked with Mark Middling and his work with Exeter is great.