The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Mr Popodopolous]

Not City or Championship related.

However Manchester United, yes their results will be out on Thursday, pre tax loss of £30m in the first 3/4 of 2022-23.

The allowable in the PL is £105m plus allowables in 3 years. So far, losses before tax and allowables:

2021-22- £149m

2022-23- £30m*

2023-24- £??

*=Still awaiting the 4th quarter to work out the results but definitely plausible they could fail P&S to this season. Interest payable is down and dividends have halted but.. 

Possible they might need their loelwedt loss since 2018-19, well that was a profit but this cumulative position should be interesting.

People talk about equity but that is required to take Man United up to the adjusted £105m plus allowables which they could exceed regardless.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

https://metro.co.uk/2023/10/25/everton-face-12-point-deduction-as-premier-league-demand-severe-punishment-19718928/

everton 12 points down possibly or thats what the league is asking for as the top end of the punishment

Edited October 25, 2023 by Rob26

[Mr Popodopolous]

If the Covid losses are inflated, I'd wholeheartedly support that.

They should have a sliding scale like the EFL do, maybe this case if a deduction arises will create on.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

I'm guessing its going to fully fully negoatied as everton do have the leverage I think to appeal and drag it out several years. 

so would expect things if they get settled without appeals to turn out to be a fine and the points to come down or have a good chunk of them to change to suspended.

part of me thinks that they would have to be stupid to think they could just breach and blame covid without taking strong legal advice to confirm if it would stand up or not. 

covid's been used as a massive get out clause for all sorts of failings in business in and out of football, so for me I think that is one thing that cannot be underestimated even tho we all know its a cop out/fiddle, but they may be fortunate that covid gets them out of it.

I think 12 points is fair for sure, think even 6 has potential to take them down if they don't sort out their performances on the pitch on the season the dock is placed.

I do wonder how it will go if they get docked 12 points and appeal, as the articles are making out the points being docked would be this season (which I imagine is what they are asking for not the reality), I wonder how appeal would work to remove that - assuming the appeals last as long as others (which have been years previously) would the points be suspended until after the appeals. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Points deduction would be imposed instantly if the Commission hand it down.

An appeal may amend, replace or uphold successful if precedent but it would not be in the interests of the penalised club to drsf it out on appeal as the sanction if handed down would be imposed instantly.

See Sheffield Wednesday as the closest example in terms of Appeals etc.

Remember too, this is an Independent Commission hence the PL can also appeal if they think the verdict doesn't reflect the charge e.g.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

£32.574m reported loss for Man Utd, that's before tax but also before allowances.

Wonder if they are candidates to run aground of the £105m plus allowables this season. They lost £149m last season (pre tax, pre allowables).

Edited October 26, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

They now need their lowest loss this season since 2018-19, well actually thst was profitable, to avoid a PL FFP breach IMO.

[1960maaan]

I really don't understand how the appeals process can be allowed to drag on if an appeal is made.

I imagine a situation , Everton looking at 3 Clubs claiming millions if they are found guilty. Then get docked 12 points but appeal . Stay up by 1 - 12 points and then the next 3 Clubs that go down instead of them make a claim for millions.
I'm seeing the figure of £300M mentioned , not sure if that is total or by each "wronged" Club , but even if it's over 3 Clubs they could still face being sued for another £300M by the next 3 Clubs. Imagine being fined £600M and still ending up with 12 points deduction.

They must be praying that they do fall within limits. Then does focus shift back to Man City, whos 115 counts are supposed to be worse. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

@1960maaan

If the Commission hands down a deduction, then the deduction would be applied instantly, then it would be up to Everton to get it overturned, reduced etc.

Likewise if the penalty is deemed too lenient, it is possible the PL would appeal the verdict.

Lastly, the suing thing...-12 points should impact Burnley in 2021-22 and give Leeds a fee million more in prize money for 17th v 16th 

Or if it should have been applied last season, Leicester and Leeds albeit Leeds only the gap between 19th and 18th 

£100m each although I'd argue £100m minus Parachute Payments. £60-70m each maybe.

*Norwich and Watford too far back in 2021-22, Southampton last season.

[1960maaan]

@Mr Popodopolous it seems an absolute minefield .

One thing that should be applied, somehow. If a deduction is made any appeal should be completed by the end of the season. Not sure how that would work mind.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, 1960maaan said:

@Mr Popodopolous it seems an absolute minefield .

One thing that should be applied, somehow. If a deduction is made any appeal should be completed by the end of the season. Not sure how that would work mind.

 

Seems to be a rule that has been brought in for that just purpose in the PL. I hope the EFL have something similar.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Leicester journalist seems to think they are compliant with Financial regs.

I am more inclined to agree than not, but the £92.4m pre tax loss in the 3 year cycle for 2021-22 surely at least raises a point of query to this present season, sure they are fine to 2022-23 and before.

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/journalist-makes-confident-financial-fair-play-prediction-involving-leicester-city/

Elsewhere saw a suggestion that Cardiff are operating just below limits. The accounts from last season will be instructive.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Owl Visiting]

Wednesday put under an embargo again.

What a mess we're in.

[chinapig]

15 hours ago, Owl Visiting said:

Wednesday put under an embargo again.

What a mess we're in.

HMRC debt I see. Assuming Chansiri doesn't put any more money in this could easily lead to HMRC going to Court unless somebody else comes to the rescue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67245949

[Rob26]

On 27/10/2023 at 13:52, Mr Popodopolous said:

Leicester journalist seems to think they are compliant with Financial regs.

I am more inclined to agree than not, but the £92.4m pre tax loss in the 3 year cycle for 2021-22 surely at least raises a point of query to this present season, sure they are fine to 2022-23 and before.

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/journalist-makes-confident-financial-fair-play-prediction-involving-leicester-city/

Elsewhere saw a suggestion that Cardiff are operating just below limits. The accounts from last season will be instructive.

god bless amortisation :laugh:

On 26/10/2023 at 16:56, 1960maaan said:

I really don't understand how the appeals process can be allowed to drag on if an appeal is made.

I imagine a situation , Everton looking at 3 Clubs claiming millions if they are found guilty. Then get docked 12 points but appeal . Stay up by 1 - 12 points and then the next 3 Clubs that go down instead of them make a claim for millions.
I'm seeing the figure of £300M mentioned , not sure if that is total or by each "wronged" Club , but even if it's over 3 Clubs they could still face being sued for another £300M by the next 3 Clubs. Imagine being fined £600M and still ending up with 12 points deduction.

They must be praying that they do fall within limits. Then does focus shift back to Man City, whos 115 counts are supposed to be worse. 

the clubs that went down wont even get close to 300m, thats just what they are probs asking for you, like the league asking for 12 points, that's their top end, obviously will be contested and brought down 

appeals process can take a long time because its a legal issue not a sporting issue as it would be challenged in court.

if they carry on as they have this season I think they will finish above a 12 point penalty. Dyche will grind enough results I think to keep their head above water,

the teams below them are just significantly weaker and I think only one of them out the 4 would probs get them out that rut with a change of management. It's probs the perfect season for them to be docked 12 points.

man citys 115 counts actually sound a lot easier to defend than evertons, everton only have covid to rely on, but the evidence on citys claims is lacking, I've seen a few videos where people with a legal mind have gone through it all and alot of it looks like fluff, the obv have broken ffp but think they have covered their tracks enough legally to just get a slap on the wrist, not enough of the claims are backed with good evidence. people look at the uefa case and think it was time barred but that was only one small part of the case and most of it was not sufficiently evidenced and the fine was for not co-operating. the premier league has a uber high burden of proof in this case.

here is a good legal summary on how hard some of these charges the premier league has made are going to be to evidence and prove and most have been tried and failed by uefa, a lot based on the number of auditors and other bodies that have previously approved all of these facts in the cases. and unless the deception is proven there is a 6 year statue of limitations which has clearly passed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuz2z2m1Vzk 

then you also have to factor in the governments role in this, they rely on the UAE for their special relationship with them that makes our country lots of money and no doubt a call will of been made to them to sort it out for them as well. the league is essentially accusing them of full on fraud and deception which you know they wont let slide. this also increases the chances of their being a slap on the wrist fine, probs for the agent fees and manager off the book payments, which really are just next to nothing offences in the grand scheme of things.

then factor in another goverment element, if they did fake revenue do the goverment owe them millions in overpaid tax :laugh:

the whole thing also is going to done at the request of the premier league behind closed doors, that sounds to me they are not confident or do not want what they are putting forward viewed by anyone. 

I don't doubt city have had plenty of early day shenanigans with ffp like many other clubs and gotten away with it, but this whole situation to me just reeks of the premier league trying to get leverage with the goverment against getting a regulator established to control them. The timing was indicator of it and also them wanting to keep it all private tells me that its probs has a lot of frivolous parts to the case. Epically with it failing for Uefa where the proof required was much less. After all like I said its one of our countries golden gooses this relationship we have with them, and the whole thing seems setup for a similar out come as the city case where they will just pay it off and maybe they may not be as regulated as they may have been.

both sides in both cases have option to taking it to high court and the court of appeal afterwards as well, this is why the appeals process will take a long time, they can't rush appeals like that otherwise that may likely be used in follow up appeals so everything needs to be correct

[Mr Popodopolous]

Precedent shows that a sporting sanction handed down would be instant on receipt of the verdict and would only change after completion of an appeal.

It would go:

Charge  Hearing  Instant imposition of SanctionAppealVerdict of Upper body- which may or may not change verdict.

Whereas not:

ChargeHearingSanction but stayed pending AppealAppeal- Final verdict of Upper Body.

[Rob26]

Chansiri is having a wip arround if anyone wants to donate so he dont have to pay anything https://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/football/sheffield-wednesday/sheffield-wednesday-dejphon-chansiri-fans-hmrc-wages-4391378

 

Sheffield Wednesday owner Dejphon Chansiri: Fans must ‘save club’ with £2m for HMRC and wages

Sheffield Wednesday owner Dejphon Chansiri has asked supporters who ‘call themselves owners’ to come up with £2m within the next few days to save the club from a multi-window transfer embargo - and admitted players and club staff might not be paid this month amid major cash flow issues.

[Davefevs]

Chansiri

[Rob26]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Chansiri

some of the stuff he has put out in that interview is batshit crazy, what he expect to happen that one of the fans is actually a millionaire and going to respond by buying him out the club? 

or have fans lend a club where the owner has said he will not put any more money into it, on the hope of keeping their club and making interest on it, yet if he wont put any money into the club there is no doubt the cashflow dries up and your unsecured loan sharp becomes worthless :laugh:

he can't be such an idiot he would rather not fund the club and have administration take it out his hands to make him get less from a sale than if he funded it and sold it if someone comes in who can make a deal with him.

there's no scenario in saying that where you get any respect from the fans or helps his situation at all. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/10/31/wolves-ffp-punishment-transfers-premier-league-coady-neves/

Yeah quite right too. Sounds like selling Nunes may have been the bonus, now incumbent that the IDC make the correct call on Everton otherwise it sends a terrible message.

[Rob26]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/10/31/wolves-ffp-punishment-transfers-premier-league-coady-neves/

Yeah quite right too. Sounds like selling Nunes may have been the bonus, now incumbent that the IDC make the correct call on Everton otherwise it sends a terrible message.

thankfully if they don't make the call its all boils down to what will be put on a extraordinary situation that covid 19 was

really interesting how that wild card is going to stand up, seems to be a bit of a free pass for many

 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/10/31/wolves-ffp-punishment-transfers-premier-league-coady-neves/

Yeah quite right too. Sounds like selling Nunes may have been the bonus, now incumbent that the IDC make the correct call on Everton otherwise it sends a terrible message.

Puts a lot of pressure on them making the right call with Everton doesn’t it.

[Mr Popodopolous]

18 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

thankfully if they don't make the call its all boils down to what will be put on a extraordinary situation that covid 19 was

really interesting how that wild card is going to stand up, seems to be a bit of a free pass for many

 

Yeah there are acceptable Covid losses ie normal revenue lost or revenue net of cost savings and taking the piss.

Everton, much like Stoke, potentially but not definitely Nottingham Forest and again potentially but not definitely Fulham seem to fall the wrong side of this line. 

Nottingham Forest had £28-29m in 3 years, the question is 3rd year.  Fulham had 1 PL year and maybe had £50-55m in 3, again not the worst. The sketchy item there is £20m I'm Covid impairment but even with that excluded they seem to come in okay.

Stoke with Championship x 3 had £60m in 3, hmm!! Comes to pushing 50% of their revenue across 2019-20, 2020-21 and a 2021-22.

Everton had up to £228m in 3 PL, utter nonsense.

In fact when you factor in Stoke and Everton as a percentage of revenue attributed, indirect v direct losses Stoke are similar if not slightly worse.

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Puts a lot of pressure on them making the right call with Everton doesn’t it.

Absolutely. If you decimate your squad to comply or a chunk anyway and wear losing a top class manager then yeah has to be enforced strictly for all.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Chansiri seems to have paid the wages and HMRC debt.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Quick random check when browsing.

Norwich post relegation..the usual steady results? Not quite!

@Davefevs

This is quite un Norwich like, loss before tax in the PL and post relegation. Pushing £50m across the 2 years!

No Parachute Payments next season..if they remain down! Wow, uncharted FFP related waters for them. The double whammy of a swing from £61m to £39m and Year 2 of Parachute Payments to EFL money having actually made hefty losses in prior years.

https://www.canaries.co.uk/content/norwich-city-release-annual-report

Edited November 4, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

Think this shows why they went down the free agent approach this summer.  Although wages would’ve been “decent”.

Couple of undisclosed fees in there.  Fisher was from Bromley, so not huge.

Outgoings:

Certainly an attempt to rectify.

[Rob26]

On 04/11/2023 at 08:23, Davefevs said:

Think this shows why they went down the free agent approach this summer.  Although wages would’ve been “decent”.

Couple of undisclosed fees in there.  Fisher was from Bromley, so not huge.

Outgoings:

Certainly an attempt to rectify.

bet their is savings on the wages tho too. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Definitely they got £20m or so in Profit on Disposal according to post Balance Sheet events. Aarons etc.

The amortisation should be down to an extent this year, wages too- sacking Smith depending on how they went, whether it was spread or one hit could also be a saving.

The real year of interest if they are still a Championship club will be next season. Currently equity permitting they're on £15-61m plus allowables plus some residual Covid losses from 2021-22 if applicable. Plus PL, Parachute 1 and Parachute 2.

Next year, equity permitting £15-39m plus allowables, no Covid stuff and a swing from Parachute to Solidarity.

Watford look better prepared in some ways, less so in others given Joao Pedro and Sarr sales..their contentious one was the sale and loan back of Kamara. That is or was under investigation, from a Fair Value perspective.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

That brings me onto another issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67363927

There could be a temporary ban in the PL at least from commonly owned clubs loaning with each other while a permanent solution is looked for.

Or for inbound loans anyway.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Bristol Rob]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

That brings me onto another issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67363927

There could be a temporary ban in the PL at least from commonly owned clubs loaning with each other while a permanent solution is looked for.

Or for inbound loans anyway.

So I expect we'll see lots of short term contracts with a 'buy back' clause of £1 or something