LJ hero or villain.

[Whale Eye Beef Hooked]

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Why don't you actually look at results, home and away and base things on that a bit as well? For both sides I mean, trends etc as well as just us in isolation.

Wigan in the main do not get thrashed away from home and particularly vs the better sides- they just don't! Expected goals wise in terms of underlying numbers, they probably outrank QPR in the table for a start. Went to Norwich, Sheffield United, WBA- 0-1, 2-4, 0-2 and Aston Villa 2-3. A 2-1 win would have been about par. Think they lost 2-1 at Derby as well.

They actually do create chances on the road though- a park the bus side they are not! Actually average 12.21 shots per game away from home-  they were always going to come and give it a go, especially being in a relegation scrap plus quite physical. QPR OTOH average about 10 per game- always likely to be an open or a close game here, at Norwich not so much.

Plus, QPR have **** all to play for and are managerless. Safe, rudderless- whereas Norwich have all to gain- was likely they could have run up a bit of a score. Whereas Wigan are scrapping down the bottom and we know how dangerous those sides can be.

We should have won, can't deny that- a bit of perspective and context though maybe.

Fair answer, but I was just frustrated that we are becoming predictable.  We are good enough to present these teams a lot of problems.  We are not a bottom half team that has to keep it tight and hope to nick a goal in the counter.   Yes against the top teams and to be fair it works and if we go up we will have to play like that but against your Wigan’s let’s give them something to worry about from the off.  We have struggled against the lower teams at home for a while now and if we can go a couple up early they will struggle to get back into the game   Going safe for an hour gives the opposition a bit of belief 

[054123]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

20 home games, leading in 3, drawing 10, losing 7.  In the 3 we were winning at h-t....we failed to win any of them.  It proves we are a better team second half, but too many times we’ve thrown on double / treble subs.  Luckily it has paid off several times...but it is a poor trend, and often the players changing it around, or contributing to turning it around aren’t getting selected to start.  Taylor and Eliasson, plus Palmer to a lesser extent, aren’t being given a fair crack.  That is something LJ will need to solve.

This is a great post for discussion.

Its got nothing to do with hero or villain or in or out, just people who regularly support a team discussing the main area that is currently challenging Lee Johnson.

I think the reason fans find it frustrating is that in the vast majority of cases, home form is the easier of the two to build some stability and positivity into. I’m sure Lee Johnson would happily admit the same.

For us this season, it’s been the other way around. We can guess as to why and I’m sure Lee is aware of it and will try to address it.

If our home and away results were flipped , I honestly don’t think people would raise it as an issue.

[mozo]

10 hours ago, Ian Crabbe said:

Can’t quite work out if LJ is a hero for sussing out the state of play at HT and changing formations and tactics

for the better in the second half,or a villain for not seeming to ever get it right from the start,when was the last time

a game was effectively over after 30 minutes or so.

Well you got grief for your thread and then it turned into an interesting debate...

I think you'd be mad not to wonder why the lads come out so lifeless in so many home games. Is it tactics or is the players?

LJ blamed fatigue.

[Drew Peacock]

23 minutes ago, mozo said:

Well you got grief for your thread and then it turned into an interesting debate...

I think you'd be mad not to wonder why the lads come out so lifeless in so many home games. Is it tactics or is the players?

LJ blamed fatigue.

Why are they any more fatigued than any other team?

I don't get it.

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Another interesting angle though might be, though we may have scored more in the 2nd half, in terms of baseline performance it maybe a more even split.

Some sites show 2nd and 1st half split of games- goals, shots, possession etc- I'll look into this in the coming day or 2.

I'm sure we are overall better in 2nd though, but performance level v goals may throw up some different aspects again. Though results ultimately what managers are judged on of course!

Saturday we scored more goals 2nd half e.g. but we had more possession and shots first half- conversely we conceded more chances arguably 2nd half and bore possession certainly despite only letting in one goal in each.

Overall I agree yeah, 2nd half demonstrably better- but performance levels perhaps a bit more variable. At times.

Yep...and as I posted, we get a rollercoaster (it seems) performance in every game at home.  Nobody expects us to dominate a full 90 minutes, but I don’t think we control enough of the game either.

Its a bit frustrating, but I’m at the point where I am just enjoying the fact that across all games, home and away, we are doing well enough to get the results / points to keep us right in the play-off mix.  In some respects I’d like to be critical of LJ for us being 0-1, but then I'd like to credit him with the subs, but then I'd like to criticise him for us not holding on to 2-1.  He’s making it very difficult for us fans to happy-clap or criticise him, when we get both sides within the sane 90 minutes. 

[reddogkev]

 

11 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42927225

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38864163

I've just spent a few minutes reading the match report of the 3-3 home draw with Sunderland, and now feel in a bad mood and furious with LJ for subbing Reid for Diony.

Cheers BS4 on Tour!

Don't even get me started on the Derby game ....

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, reddogkev said:

 

I've just spent a few minutes reading the match report of the 3-3 home draw with Sunderland, and now feel in a bad mood and furious with LJ for subbing Reid for Diony.

Cheers BS4 on Tour!

Don't even get me started on the Derby game ....

Why are you still furious about results from last season?     

Hindsight is a wonderful thing........

 

[MC RISK77]

9 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Why don't you actually look at results, home and away and base things on that a bit as well? For both sides I mean, trends etc as well as just us in isolation.

Wigan in the main do not get thrashed away from home and particularly vs the better sides- they just don't! Expected goals wise in terms of underlying numbers, they probably outrank QPR in the table for a start. Went to Norwich, Sheffield United, WBA- 0-1, 2-4, 0-2 and Aston Villa 2-3. A 2-1 win would have been about par. Think they lost 2-1 at Derby as well.

They actually do create chances on the road though- a park the bus side they are not! Actually average 12.21 shots per game away from home-  they were always going to come and give it a go, especially being in a relegation scrap plus quite physical. QPR OTOH average about 10 per game- always likely to be an open or a close game here, at Norwich not so much.

Plus, QPR have **** all to play for and are managerless. Safe, rudderless- whereas Norwich have all to gain- was likely they could have run up a bit of a score. Whereas Wigan are scrapping down the bottom and we know how dangerous those sides can be.

We should have won, can't deny that- a bit of perspective and context though maybe.

QPR are only 5 points above the relegation zone and in total free fall.

[Super]

58 minutes ago, mozo said:

Well you got grief for your thread and then it turned into an interesting debate...

I think you'd be mad not to wonder why the lads come out so lifeless in so many home games. Is it tactics or is the players?

LJ blamed fatigue.

Complete rubbish from LJ. It's not a one off.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, MC RISK77 said:

QPR are only 5 points above the relegation zone and in total free fall.

Well they likely considered themselves safe a while ago- I mean whether they are or not is a different matter but they just look from the outside pretty rudderless.

Once you enter that mindset it's very hard to turn back on again.

[reddogkev]

13 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Why are you still furious about results from last season?     

Hindsight is a wonderful thing........

 

Well, I wasn't furious before reading the report, but now I'm livid.

Or I could just be pulling your leg.

[reddogkev]

11 hours ago, Ian Crabbe said:

Can’t quite work out if LJ is a hero for sussing out the state of play at HT and changing formations and tactics

for the better in the second half,or a villain for not seeming to ever get it right from the start,when was the last time

a game was effectively over after 30 minutes or so.

LJ is a hero, who sometimes makes decisions that seem bizarre, so maybe villainous, if you like.

The one that still annoys me is the selection of Marinovic ahead of O'Leary against Ipswich.

I do agree he should've started much more attack-minded against Wigan, and went for them from the first whistle.

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

LJ is a hero, who sometimes makes decisions that seem bizarre, so maybe villainous, if you like.

The one that still annoys me is the selection of Marinovic ahead of O'Leary against Ipswich.

I do agree he should've started much more attack-minded against Wigan, and went for them from the first whistle.

Agree on O'Leary v Marinovic- his poor early kick, probably did not help confidence and set the tone a bit! Ipswich got at us quite a bit and a rusty, new, not confident- or maybe just not very good keeper behind a backline when we were in a bit of a dip was a curious decision...

Interested to know what you would have done differently v Wigan, shape wise- team selection wise? Weimann, Walsh, O'Dowda injured, Smith still recovering after a long time- Palmer not great from the start, more of an impact at this stage- would say in that formation it was amongst the best lineups, setups we could have gone with once we have factored in availability etc. Da Silva and Hunt at WB makes more sense than Pisano and Kelly e.g.

[downendcity]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

He is doing a grand job, but he also makes mistakes.  The pluses are definitely outweighing the minuses.

I’m very content.

In some ways I've become a bit passé about things.  In the past I would’ve been analytical about the first half, the second half up until the subs were made, and then the great 10 minutes and then the way we lost control from 2-1 up.

We basically go through a rollercoaster of events in a game.  It is why we don’t win by >1 goal, and why we don’t lose by >1 goal.

If you take a view that we (the forum) are pretty much gonna be happy when we win, we’ve ‘only’ done that 17 times in 39 games.  We’ve ‘failed’ to win in 22 out of 39.  Now, of course we know we aren’t gonna win every game, but even if you take results as black and white as above - win or don’t win, you can see why criticism takes place, despite being 6th with a game in hand.

If you take h-t at 0-1 we salvaged a point....yet from 2-1 up we’ve thrown away 2.

The way we play, we cannot be sure we will kick-on or fall-away.  Makes it interesting.

And I guess it shows despite what is looking like a very good season, LJ still has much to learn.  Same for the players too.

 

3 hours ago, Robbored said:

I am as well. Imv LJ is doing a good job..He like the players are learning game on game and gaining Championship experience. Let’s not forget that in managerial terms LJ is still a young gun at 37.......

He knows as we all do that home form has been a concern largely because many away teams don’t play in an open manner as they do at home. 

I posted on another thread that I reckon it’s the lack of creativity in midfield that’s the main problem and has been all season. Neither Pack or Brownhill  are creative and Pato is well........far too lightweight.......

Ive thought for some time that LJ has been doing a good job and that under him we have been progressing.

He's always struck me as a studious and analytical coach, which is very much the modern way of doing things. His ability to counter the opposition has been demonstrated admirably on many occasions and especially when we play away, but as we all know it is not the same story at Ashton Gate. Where LJ falls just short of the better managers/coaches at this level, and certainly the top coaches in the game, is his ability to select a team to play to our strengths and for that team to impose itself on the opposition.

Ive long felt that his approach is a bit too cautious and circumspect, although there is little denying how well it has been working, which would probably explain that while we don't often win by more than the odd goal we don't get turned over badly and lose only by the odd goal.  It could be , as RR suggests, that he feels we do not have the right personnel to play a more expansive style and formation, although it is interesting that a player that would seem to fit the bill ideally ( Palmer) has struggled to get a starting place, despite a few impressive performances as a second half substitution.

Is it that a more expansive style, which was not LJ's way when he was a player here,  is not comfortable to LJ's way of thinking - other than when we are having to chase a game?

[reddogkev]

48 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree on O'Leary v Marinovic- his poor early kick, probably did not help confidence and set the tone a bit! Ipswich got at us quite a bit and a rusty, new, not confident- or maybe just not very good keeper behind a backline when we were in a bit of a dip was a curious decision...

Interested to know what you would have done differently v Wigan, shape wise- team selection wise? Weimann, Walsh, O'Dowda injured, Smith still recovering after a long time- Palmer not great from the start, more of an impact at this stage- would say in that formation it was amongst the best lineups, setups we could have gone with once we have factored in availability etc. Da Silva and Hunt at WB makes more sense than Pisano and Kelly e.g.

All good points, and my team would have had Elliason from the start, I said as much to the guy sitting next to me after a few minutes.

My formation would have been adapted from a 3-5-2 to something more for suitable for Elliason.  I wanted to see his crossing ability for both Taylor and Fammy to attack.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

All good points, and my team would have had Elliason from the start, I said as much to the guy sitting next to me after a few minutes.

My formation would have been adapted from a 3-5-2 to something more for suitable for Elliason.  I wanted to see his crossing ability for both Taylor and Fammy to attack.

Where does Eliasson play in your 352?

[reddogkev]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Where does Eliasson play in your 352?

Sorry, maybe wasn't too clear, I wouldn't have had a 3-5-2 with Elliasson!

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Sorry, maybe wasn't too clear, I wouldn't have had a 3-5-2 with Elliasson!

Yeah, I misread...oops.

You might wanna look at the following thread:

 

[Rudolf Hucker]

 

 

4 hours ago, Super said:

Clearly started yet again at home with wrong team and tactics. Nobody can deny that. Got is so right away from home though.

"Clearly"? Really? It's so easy to be wise after the event - if one seeks to be.

Well, I deny your assertion absolutely. I was happy with the team selection and formation before the game. I suspect many others were too however, that team played poorly in the first half which couldn't have been anticipated. Normally standout players like Pack, Brownhill, DaSilva and Webster failed to achieve anywhere near their highest standard of performance. Did you know that was going to happen? I didn't and I doubt that LJ did. Famara missed a first half header which he could have farted home and which would have put us into the  lead  which would possibly have changed the game entirely. So how didn't the formation work?

Wigan deserve great credit for playing much better than their league position and away record suggested they would or could; they put us on the back foot. They did a number on us (just as we did the previous week against SheffU). LJ made timely changes to team and formation which worked very well. Despite that we conceded in the very last minute. Shit happens. Overall it was a fair outcome.

Could LJ have done things differently? Yep. If he knew then what he knows now, would he have done things differently? Undoubtedly. Would it have changed the result? Who knows? Well, apart from you. Clearly! 

[reddogkev]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah, I misread...oops.

You might wanna look at the following thread:

 

Yep, had a look at that thread and I like the first team selection, but I'd keep Taylor instead of Palmer.  I'd like to see if Taylor performs well over a run of games, and Palmer is a quality option from the bench.

[Super]

2 minutes ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

 

 

"Clearly"? Really? It's so easy to be wise after the event - if one seeks to be.

Well, I deny your assertion absolutely. I was happy with the team selection and formation before the game. I suspect many others were too however, that team played poorly in the first half which couldn't have been anticipated. Normally standout players like Pack, Brownhill, DaSilva and Webster failed to achieve anywhere near their highest standard of performance. Did you know that was going to happen? I didn't and I doubt that LJ did. Famara missed a first half header which he could have farted home and which would have put us into the  lead  which would possibly have changed the game entirely. So how didn't the formation work?

Wigan deserve great credit for playing much better than their league position and away record suggested they would or could; they put us on the back foot. They did a number on us (just as we did the previous week against SheffU). LJ made timely changes to team and formation which worked very well. Despite that we conceded in the very last minute. Shit happens. Overall it was a fair outcome.

Could LJ have done things differently? Yep. If he knew then what he knows now, would he have done things differently? Undoubtedly. Would it have changed the result? Who knows? Well, apart from you. Clearly! 

But that doesn't make it the right selection because a lot of fans were happy with it.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

 

 

"Clearly"? Really? It's so easy to be wise after the event - if one seeks to be.

Well, I deny your assertion absolutely. I was happy with the team selection and formation before the game. I suspect many others were too however, that team played poorly in the first half which couldn't have been anticipated. Normally standout players like Pack, Brownhill, DaSilva and Webster failed to achieve anywhere near their highest standard of performance. Did you know that was going to happen? I didn't and I doubt that LJ did. Famara missed a first half header which he could have farted home and which would have put us into the  lead  which would possibly have changed the game entirely. So how didn't the formation work?

Wigan deserve great credit for playing much better than their league position and away record suggested they would or could; they put us on the back foot. They did a number on us (just as we did the previous week against SheffU). LJ made timely changes to team and formation which worked very well. Despite that we conceded in the very last minute. Shit happens. Overall it was a fair outcome.

Could LJ have done things differently? Yep. If he knew then what he knows now, would he have done things differently? Undoubtedly. Would it have changed the result? Who knows? Well, apart from you. Clearly! 

Good post!

I would also add expanding on one of your points, I think and not for the first time we as fans perhaps underestimated a side at the bottom end- this time Wigan. A bit of lazy thinking that 'Wigan down the bottom, away from home? Us high and confident- therefore a bit of an attack v defence". No they came at us well- as I thought and posted on here they would in fact attack when possible and perhaps even deploy a strong counterattacking game. Their performances even on the road probably deserve more points and goals. Still disappointing that we had done the hard bit on the day, turning it around to 2-1 and couldn't see it out. Players underperformed and Diedhiou missing that chance when he did- but on the game itself, I thought when Wigan had that early freekick that there were danger signs, in fact they had 2 in the first 10-15 mins. Caught us off guard a bit?

[Rudolf Hucker]

3 minutes ago, Super said:

But that doesn't make it the right selection because a lot of fans were happy with it.

And it doesn’t make it wrong just because you assert that it clearly was.

[Super]

Just now, Rudolf Hucker said:

And it doesn’t make it wrong just because you assert that it clearly was.

Well it didn't work.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Super said:

But that doesn't make it the right selection because a lot of fans were happy with it.

With the available personnel, how would you have setup then?

[Rudolf Hucker]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

With the available personnel, how would you have setup then?

That’s irrelevant because I now know the outcome. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

That’s irrelevant because I now know the outcome. 

Ah yeah, true- hadn't thought of that.

I don't see a lot wrong with the team we went with given no O'Dowda, Walsh, Smith, Weimann- have I missed anyone from options who could have made it mesh better?

I remember writing this on Friday before the Wigan game too- dug it out.

Quote

I expect Wigan to attack when they get the opportunity or play a positive counterattacking game at minimum- they don't strike me as a park the bus side- should work for us but could pose us unexpected issues too.

Which is basically how they approached it- 2 sides playing, very competitive League. Yes we should've seen it out but...

[Super]

2 minutes ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

That’s irrelevant because I now know the outcome. 

I get that, just think that formation is more for playing away from home.

[Davefevs]

Looking back I think we lost the midfield battle, not by much, but enough for it to affect everything else.  Neither Pack, Brownhill or Paterson had anything resembling a good game....average at best.

Focussing on the negatives here:

Pack - was too deep.  Great as it is to see Webster gallop forwards, if Pack assumes his position by dropping in, what is the real benefit of Webster going forward?  

Brownhill - Just quiet generally, never got in the game.

Paterson - bullied. 

There four midfielders in a 2x2 (James and Morsy deeper than Powell and Windass) covered a lot of passing angles too.

The challenge is what do we do when we are being outgunned in midfield?  Although we played a 3 in the centre, they in effect played a 4 in a square.  When Marlon drops deep it makes it more outnumbered.

Personally I don’t know what the answer is....switch to 442 and make our FBs push their WBs back?  I dunno!  I think partly if most of our players win their battles then we win, and tactics become less material.

I don’t think Kalas and Webster were on their game, nor Dasilva, so along with the 3 midfielders that’s 6 players not quite on it.  That has a massive bearing.

 

edit: Paul Cook is a good manager, and if LJ goes anywhere, he ought to be on our list.

[Drew Peacock]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

edit: Paul Cook is a good manager, and if LJ goes anywhere, he ought to be on our list.

Was he the baldy one with anger management issues and heading for a heart attack or the more calm and collected one?