Bedred31 Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Selling the ground to raise funds is fine, but (a) sale price has to be a genuine commercial valuation, ie not at an undervalue or, more likely, a huge overvalue. being thereby a vehicle to allow the owner to inject significant additional funds as a subsidy, and (b) the lease back involves the club paying a proper commercial rent (more difficult and expensive than you might think -ie normal commercial expectations start at 8% pa with full repairing covenants etc). It may be that Villa have questions to answer on either or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, Bedred31 said: Selling the ground to raise funds is fine, but (a) sale price has to be a genuine commercial valuation, ie not at an undervalue or, more likely, a huge overvalue. being thereby a vehicle to allow the owner to inject significant additional funds as a subsidy, and (b) the lease back involves the club paying a proper commercial rent (more difficult and expensive than you might think -ie normal commercial expectations start at 8% pa with full repairing covenants etc). It may be that Villa have questions to answer on either or both. Say a genuine company or property company or the like etc had paid Derby £81.1m for Pride Park or indeed a genuine company, property company that is a) Third party b) Of genuine arms length had paid £56.7m for Villa Park and c) They charged a genuine rent. I wouldn't like it but I would have no problem with it legally, or more accurately financially regardless of spirit of regs. Less of a breach of the latter for sure if a genuine arms-length, third party transaction. Plus a full commercial rent- Derby seemingly due to be paying £1.1m on an £81.1m transaction or if we wish to boil it down, £1.1m per year on a profit of around £40m or a net book value as such- that's waaaay too low for one. Aston Villa's would be interesting to see. Hell Reading paying £750k on a £26.5m transaction- Derby's should be in the £2.29m per season bracket based on that alone, and that feels too low- as you say 8%! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begley Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 48 minutes ago, Bristol is red said: A good start would be the ground cannot be sold until the EFL has appointed someone to value the ground to determine its market value. Or instead, the club must provide details of the valuation to the EFL (ie who valued it and how they came to that valuation). My understanding is that those procedures are in place today, also HMRC need to approve the valuation of the ground. My issue with selling the ground is that and in Villa's case, NSWE owned AVFC and AVFC was apparently going to fail P&S. NSWE then sold Villa Park to NSWE and are now apparently not in P&S trouble. Just looking at that from a high level and it appears to be unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf Hucker Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, Major Isewater said: As much as this seems grossly unfair , you have to admire the ingenuity of Morris and company when at one fell stroke they have got their respective clubs out of the brown stuff. The ‘admiration’ that they deserve is similar to that proffered to Great Train Robber, Ronnie Biggs when he fled to Brazil, avoiding extradition. Like Villa and Derby, he escaped justice and spent years enjoying celebrity, the high life and laughing at the law. Villa and Derby can run but they shouldn’t be able to hide. Let’s hope that in the case of Villa, the Premier League can enforce sanctions in the proper manner - which if they weren’t so unbelievably incompetent, the EFL would already have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begley Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 35 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Full Market rent should be a given too They have to pay that from a tax perspective but it will 'only' be about 5% of sale price so 3.5m a year or so. If taking on a long term debt of 3.5m a year is the cost of getting into the PL where revenues are 150m+ a year and increasing then that just encourages clubs to follow suit. Also, from the owners perspective they are now getting more cash out of the club as they have the revenue associated with the rent which is separate from the club's financials Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begley Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, daored said: 1 hour ago, Begley said: Which was why it was shit or bust for them last season Not so sure about that. Yes there was lots riding on promotion but if Villa didn't go up and having sold their ground they would have presumably then be operating on a level playing field as Bristol City and other clubs that do not have parachute payments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornacix the Druid Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but is this not an Adam Webster thread? (Asking for a friend) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begley Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Plus a full commercial rent- Derby seemingly due to be paying £1.1m on an £81.1m transaction or if we wish to boil it down, £1.1m per year on a profit of around £40m or a net book value as such- that's waaaay too low for one. I hadn't seen that number but it would surely need to be annual rent of at least 5%, so Derby should be paying 4m+ in rent a year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Talking of Webster, what's the latest? Is it a £20-25m or no deal or is there movement- hard to match wages if valuation matched- 3-4 x what he's on here we surely cannot compete...new contract and break our wage structure perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo88 Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Bristol is red said: Selling grounds are fine but I think it does need regulating and conditions put in place. Selling their Eastville ground didn’t do Rovers much good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow&Blue&Red Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Talking of Webster, what's the latest? Perhaps the club have been made an offer that is attractive, but they've asked for it to be left on the table until they've had time to find and organise a replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Marty said: Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but is this not an Adam Webster thread? (Asking for a friend) Don't be so utterly ridiculous. This is OTIB and thread titles should be ignored as they normally morph into some completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Begley said: Not so sure about that. Yes there was lots riding on promotion but if Villa didn't go up and having sold their ground they would have presumably then be operating on a level playing field as Bristol City and other clubs that do not have parachute payments. Yeah- however, the losses from 2017/18 would be the new starting point- see the FFP thread for (much) more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begley Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Talking of Webster, what's the latest? To me it appears that Villa are trying to buy Webster but not at Bristol City's valuation. They are looking to unsettle the player and all this talk of quadrupling his salary can't be helping the lad. That said, this is just normal practice by all clubs when it comes to transfers. Although we become somewhat immune to the actual size of the numbers and see people saying things like 'I wouldn't takes less than 25m or less than 30m etc' it is still a heck of a lot of cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpexile Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Major Isewater said: As much as this seems grossly unfair , you have to admire the ingenuity of Morris and company when at one fell stroke they have got their respective clubs out of the brown stuff. Agreed Major, I'm wondering how many times they can sell to save themselves, surely eventually they run out of things to sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedorDead BCFC Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 I may be speaking out of turn here, but do we own Ashton Gate or is that all Bristol Sport now? Anyway I’m still hoping another club come in for Webster like Southampton or Everton where we can barter with their players as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begley Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, bpexile said: Agreed Major, I'm wondering how many times they can sell to save themselves, surely eventually they run out of things to sell. It ends up putting so much pressure on PL clubs to remain in the PL and most will invest accordingly. However, 3 go down every year and depending on how well they use / risk their parachute payments will determine if they go back up again. The full system makes it harder and harder for Championship clubs to break into the PL and the gap between PL and Championship widens every year. The parachute payments are about 40m, 35m and 15m. That is on top of their Championship revenue. How the hell are Championship clubs meant to compete with that when the Championship clubs get about 6m revenue from the EFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 13 minutes ago, bpexile said: Agreed Major, I'm wondering how many times they can sell to save themselves, surely eventually they run out of things to sell. Maybe I am an idiot but what is stopping them from buying the ground back? I imagine they couldn’t do it for much less than they sold it but now having the prem money again they are in a position to reacquire it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 25 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said: Maybe I am an idiot but what is stopping them from buying the ground back? I imagine they couldn’t do it for much less than they sold it but now having the prem money again they are in a position to reacquire it? And then sell it again when they go down . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begley Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 19 minutes ago, Major Isewater said: And then sell it again when they go down . The fact that that is even theoretically possible shows what a shambles the EFL are making of P&S / FFP. They need to close the loop hole but no doubt that will be tough as surely clubs will complain that they want the same opportunities as Derby and Villa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, Begley said: The fact that that is even theoretically possible shows what a shambles the EFL are making of P&S / FFP. They need to close the loop hole but no doubt that will be tough as surely clubs will complain that they want the same opportunities as Derby and Villa. They re-opened it at a time unknown- that's the mental thing. Not so sure about the flipback thing- market rate and there would be a big overhang for the next 2 financial years- even relatively prudent clubs didn't make such a big profit in PL. EFL, EPL and likely Taxman would be asking questions too if the ground kept chanting ownership... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original OTIB Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Maguire to Man Utd would create a vacancy at Leicester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Jack Stephens now being touted by Villa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderInACan Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 43 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said: Maguire to Man Utd would create a vacancy at Leicester. £70m mind! https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48839601 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfc01 Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Jack Stephens now being touted by Villa. Hopefully that is a good sign re Webster and Villa. Leicester may take their place though with 70m in their pockets and not being afraid to take a punt on a championship player. I can't see Webster staying here tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original OTIB Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, CyderInACan said: £70m mind! https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48839601 Indeed, but domino effect and all that. £70m - £30m (Webster) leaves £40m. They may take the "punt" (big though it is)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Jack Stephens now being touted by Villa. Never rated him. Was like he was supposed to be good because he was from their academy. Same with Targett though he at least has had a good spell in the champ with Fulham. Keeping Webster will be so huge for how the players mindsets will be imo. If we keep him it really feels like we are all in this season. Which is also a bit scary as we may need to reign it in after this season if we do not go up. Finances seem stretched this year and if we don’t do it may need a mini rebuild meaning sales of players like Weimann, Paterson, Brownhill and Webster. Not a terrible things though! Seems like we will always have a core 6-7 that we can build from in a contractual standpoint(2+ years left). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 We should look to charge the full £30m before a sale IMO. Realistically we may settle for £20-25m but it should if straight cash be the full whack I feel- he's that valuable to us- that's as distinct from true market value, but his value to us is such that top dollar or forget it. Incidentally said it before- transfer market is nuts. Defender sought after at CB called Kabak, both Milan clubs, Roma, possibly Bayern- all 3 rebuilding at varying levels- 15m euros release clause! 19 year old, Turkish, very good first half-season at Stuttgart and performed in CL- about 40-65% of Webster...ball-playing too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, bcfc01 said: Hopefully that is a good sign re Webster and Villa. Leicester may take their place though with 70m in their pockets and not being afraid to take a punt on a championship player. I can't see Webster staying here tbh. Leicester, imo, are moving on from championship targets. They also have a good young ball player already there in Soyuncu(really rate him might not be prem standard but will forge a good career somewhere). There will always be targets in the champ like Kelly or Jack Clarke that they may move for but can’t see them targeting 24-25 year old CBs who have never played above our level. Could be way off but just feels like they can target a different calibre with Tielemans being an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begley Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: They re-opened it at a time unknown- that's the mental thing. I think the fact they reopened it was just as much a surprise to the EFL as it was to everyone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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