The Nketiah Deal - behind the scenes (long article)

[redordead1]

Interesting article from The Athletic about the dragons den style pitches that went into securing Nketiah. It casts a different light on Arsenal’s (and the players) actions.

Apologies for the long article, it sits behind an app so not easy to share.

Leeds United probed patiently for 43 minutes, back and forth from side to side until Salford City’s shape gave way: Jamie Shackleton to Helder Costa and Costa with a low cut-back across the box where Eddie Nketiah faded to the left of Salford defender Nathan Pond and rammed the ball into the net.

Nketiah smiled and gestured to the stand behind the goal with a finger to his lips, the first crowd he has silenced in Leeds colours but surely not the last. His finishing, his confidence — both of which were there on his debut in the League Cup on Tuesday — were what clubs were queuing up for throughout the transfer window and The Athletic can reveal the extraordinary Dragons Den-style process that culminated in Leeds winning the fight to sign Nketiah on loan from Arsenal last week.

Arsenal’s painstaking method of choosing the 20-year-old’s destination, involving long presentations by senior figures from the teams in the running to take him, reveals the attention to detail at London Colney but also the extent to which elite sides now deliberate over temporary moves. One agent, spoken to by The Athletic, said the birth of specific loan managers was turning that corner of the market into “a business in itself” where the terms of a deal are often wholly in favour of the parent club.

Leeds are regulars in that market and made three loan signings from Chelsea a year ago, a clutch of deals that tell a tale about the expectations of the top flight. The clubs were on good terms back then and mutually enthusiastic in negotiating transfers which everyone agreed would be good for the players involved. As it stands today, 12 months on, Leeds would have a hard time persuading Chelsea to answer the phone.

The club signed goalkeeper Jamal Blackman from Chelsea but failed to use him in a league game before Blackman broke his leg playing for the Under-23s, three months after heading north. They signed Lewis Baker and started him five times; so few appearances that a clause in his contract allowed Chelsea to terminate his loan in January. They signed Izzy Brown but used him for all of 11 minutes in first-team matches, initially because Brown was recovering from knee surgery but latterly because Marcelo Bielsa thought the midfielder’s intensity levels were lacking. Three players from the top flight club with a handful of Championship games between them. Chelsea’s hierarchy were not impressed.

Last week Leeds went elsewhere in London to land Nketiah on a season-long loan from Arsenal. What happened in the days before his transfer and within the walls of Arsenal’s training ground at London Colney took the management of loanees to an extreme level, with clubs asked to make presentations to the player and club to explain why they were the right destination for him. The process is new at Arsenal and seen by them as pioneering. Nketiah came via a substantial seven-figure outlay, between fees and wages over the course of this season, but committing the money was only the start of the scrap which ended with the forward linking up with Leeds on deadline day.

Nketiah is about as good as it gets in Arsenal’s academy and he is in that grey area where first-team appearances are very nearly his. But Unai Emery, Arsenal’s workaholic manager, has been caught in two minds about the youngster. The Gunners accepted a loan offer for Nketiah from Augsburg in January and arranged for him to travel to Germany to wrap up the move at the very end of the window. Nketiah was in Augsburg and waiting to complete when Emery changed his mind and ordered him home. The weather was awful, the snow disrupted departures from Munich airport and Nketiah was lucky to sneak onto the last EasyJet flight back to England.

Interest in him at the end of last season was rife and when Arsenal began fielding calls again they came from Italy, Germany, France and elsewhere. Bristol City and Fortuna Dusseldorf showed their hands early and were still in the running last week — two of the three teams who made the final shortlist and were invited to sell themselves in person to Nketiah and members of Arsenal’s staff. Leeds entered the ring at very short notice, forced to react after Anderlecht appeared with a £6.5 million offer for top scorer Kemar Roofe. With a few days of the window remaining, everything hinged on a presentation given by Leeds director of football Victor Orta in the calm and airy environment of London Colney.

Sources have told The Athletic that Nketiah is the first Arsenal loanee whose destination was decided by a formal process that is likely to become common practice in north London. The framework around Arsenal’s academy system is growing. In January they mirrored the appointments of Eddie Newton at Chelsea and Joleon Lescott at Manchester City by promoting analyst Ben Knapper, once a ProZone employee, to the newly-created role of loans manager. Five months later their coaching structure underwent changes too. Freddie Ljungberg and Steve Bould effectively swapped jobs with Ljungberg becoming assistant first-team coach and Bould dropping down to manage the Under-23s.

Arsenal said they were forming a ‘transition team’ with the aim of helping their young professionals to maximise their potential. The stringent consideration behind Nketiah’s transfer to Leeds is seen as part of that aim. Nketiah was crowded out at The Emirates this summer by the £72 million signing of Nicolas Pepe from Lille but Arsenal want the forward back in a year’s time and are keen to have him in their first-team as soon as he is ready. The questions were therefore crucial: Which loan move would bring the most out of Nketiah and which coach would serve him best?

There is an insatiable appetite for analysis at Arsenal, fuelled by the club’s purchase of US data company StatDNA in 2012. When teams began enquiring about Nketiah, Arsenal’s chief contract negotiator, Huss Fahmy, wanted to know what they were offering, not merely financially — although the figures involved mattered — but their plans for accommodating Nketiah for a year.

Arsenal sought reassurances that he would play but also wanted detailed breakdowns of how Nketiah would be used, how the team he was joining would look tactically and statistical details of goals scored, chances created and the systems adopted last season. Emery took a while before giving Nketiah’s departure the green light but, in the interim, Fahmy was able to whittle down the bidders to a manageable number.

By last Tuesday, 72 hours before the transfer deadline, three remained in contention: Leeds, Bristol City and Fortuna Dusseldorf. Staff from all three travelled to London Colney on the same day to present their ideas and philosophies to Fahmy, Knapper and Nketiah, who was in the room and part of the decision-making process. Bristol City manager Lee Johnson talked them through the Championship side’s pitch personally. Fortuna’s sporting director, Lutz Pfannenstiel, flew in and did his best to promote a modern and well-managed German outfit. Dusseldorf are thought to have been at the front of the queue for Nketiah until Leeds gave Arsenal a last-minute alternative.

Orta and Emery know each other from their days together at Sevilla, where Emery ran the senior squad and Orta worked in recruitment. Emery was abroad in Spain while negotiations for Nketiah were reaching a climax but he had the last say on the transfer and a prior relationship helped Orta get his foot in the door. Leeds held extensive knowledge of Nketiah and had watched him live more than 20 times. Twelve of those scouting trips took place in the past year and in a verbal shoot-out with Bristol City and Fortuna Dusseldorf, the club fancied their chances.

It is not unusual for Leeds or Orta to make presentations to prospective signings. In a recent interview with The Athletic, Orta admitted that Championship clubs face such severe competition that he now expects to be asked to outline the merits of Leeds over other suitors. But most transfers still follow the traditional route where a club accepts a bid and a player and his agent run the show from then on. Someone with knowledge of the process at Arsenal described last week’s pitches as “an absolute necessity”. No other Premier League side is thought to dissect loan bids to such a degree.

Orta’s presentation ran for a full hour, aided by PowerPoint slides and videos which are understood to have showcased not only Leeds’ style of play in and out of possession but clips of Nketiah depicting how and why their tactics would suit him. The upsides of moving to Elland Road were laid out in full: a season working with Marcelo Bielsa, home attendances of more than 30,000 and the exposure the club invariably gets through live Sky games. According to Angus Kinnear, Leeds’ chief executive, Arsenal were “categorical” in seeing Nketiah as a future first-team footballer. “They want him to be an Arsenal player,” Kinnear told The Athletic last week.

Johnson and Pfannenstiel made strong and positive impressions with confident briefings. Neither club were seen as unsuitable. Johnson had the advantage of being able to point to the progress made by Chelsea striker Tammy Abraham, who scored 26 goals on loan at Ashton Gate in the 2016-17 season, and City tentatively scheduled a medical for the following morning. It never took place. Orta’s extensive pitch won the day and by Wednesday afternoon Nketiah was getting ready to travel to Leeds and sign before the deadline. He underwent evaluation tests on Friday and, having arrived so late, was held back from Bielsa’s squad for Saturday’s 1-1 draw with Nottingham Forest. In spite of that, Arsenal sent a member of staff to cast an eye over him and the game.

Leeds have a rising star on their hands and Arsenal will monitor him closely, following his development and growth under Bielsa. Loan deals tend to carry penalty clauses if players fail to feature as often as they might and the punitive parts of Nketiah’s contract mean Leeds will pay more for the striker if they don’t use him regularly than they will if they do. Just in case anyone was under the impression that Championship football is their gift to give.

 

[Lrrr]

Seems pretty safe to say either Leeds play Nketiah a lot or arsenal aren't going to look fondly on loaning them more players 

[East Londoner]

One part doesn’t make sense, if Dusseldorf were at the front of the queue why did city arrange a medical? 

Nothing in that article fits the narrative of last week of arsenal assuring city that we were their first choice and the transfer being all but agreed before Leeds crashed the party, rather it paints a picture of Leeds having done their homework more so than us and Dusseldorf and city then jumping the gun in arranging a medical

[Southport Red]

Also interesting, if Arsenal are so thorough and data driven, why did the shocking under utilisation of the three Chelsea lads not get a mention?

[swanker]

When all’s said and done, It’s not what you know it’s who you know. Arsenal’s manager and the guy from Leeds have known each other for a long time. You can’t tell me that didn’t effect the outcome in some way. 

I still hope it doesn’t go well for the lad at Leeds because of the way we were messed around. 

[Orbital]

Very interesting read. Seems like the medical was set up in hope, rather than expectation. It also seems extremely intricate and impressive from Arsenal. I’m surprised more clubs don’t appear to follow suit with such commodities.

[CyderInACan]

Pah. It's gone. Let's just hope we get Afobe firing - I think he could be a better bet over a long season of championship football. 

[Major Isewater]

Leeds = Bigger club 

Orto, peed it , mates with Emery obvious choice .

Sounds like we were very , very close to landing one of England’s brightest talents and that is how far we’ve come in a short space of time.

 

[Lrrr]

21 minutes ago, walnutroof said:

One part doesn’t make sense, if Dusseldorf were at the front of the queue why did city arrange a medical?

Time frame that was left in the window probably, better to have it booked and not need it then the other way round

[spudski]

If that's how it panned out, no wonder LJ was left feeling downhearted.

Interesting Arsenal are setting up a transition team...pretty much what Tinman is doing.

Just shows you how much work and effort goes into making a signing these days. Months of it. 

Doesn't really fit with the transfer window system as it stands...polar opposites.

I still think Afobe could work out a better option overall though. Fingers crossed.

 

[East Londoner]

9 minutes ago, Southport Red said:

Also interesting, if Arsenal are so thorough and data driven, why did the shocking under utilisation of the three Chelsea lads not get a mention?

You could ask the same about our utilisation of Ryan Kent

[Bristol Oil Services]

The more I get to know how the game works, the less I like it. I reckon being ignorant/deluded and keeping a distance is best (even if it means blaming, wrongly, LJ/MA/Bailey Wright for everything, poor sods). The fawning and bowing and scraping involved, while they demand an extortionate fee as well, to these almighty PL clubs, makes my skin crawl.

 

[CliftonCliff]

Moral of the story? Be very wary of doing further loan business with Arsenal. If Emery’s dithering is typical of the man, and he has the last word, he could be a nightmare to deal with. The fact that it went to the wire after we’d been given reason to think we were likely to get the player seems to have had a distorting effect on our recruitment strategy, and left us scrabbling around for last minute deals. Why take the risk of a repeat of this shambles? Our well established links with Chelsea appear to be based on mutual respect and trust and we’d be better off cultivating that source than having to try to sell ourselves every time an Arsenal youngster becomes available - especially as, for all the supposed thoroughness and professionalism of the process, there remains the distinct impression that personal connections might well have swung it in the end. Screw ‘em.

[Bristol Oil Services]

18 minutes ago, Southport Red said:

Also interesting, if Arsenal are so thorough and data driven, why did the shocking under utilisation of the three Chelsea lads not get a mention?

Cos they're full of sh1t, like so many - it would appear - in top level football 

[bpexile]

9 minutes ago, walnutroof said:

You could ask the same about our utilisation of Ryan Kent

At the time he wasn't considered good enough.

[erndogz]

Where's the Bristol City writer for The Athletic? They seem to be chucking big money at journalists. Good article that, not sure the full price sub is worth it.

[Major Isewater]

3 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Moral of the story? Be very wary of doing further loan business with Arsenal. If Emery’s dithering is typical of the man, and he has the last word, he could be a nightmare to deal with. The fact that it went to the wire after we’d been given reason to think we were likely to get the player seems to have had a distorting effect on our recruitment strategy, and left us scrabbling around for last minute deals. Why take the risk of a repeat of this shambles? Our well established links with Chelsea appear to be based on mutual respect and trust and we’d be better off cultivating that source than having to try to sell ourselves every time an Arsenal youngster becomes available - especially as, for all the supposed thoroughness and professionalism of the process, there remains the distinct impression that personal connections might well have swung it I the end. Screw ‘em.

Those personal connections would , normally, make a difference. Fine margins but ultimately the trust between friends wins.

 

[Johnny Musicworks]

It sounds like LJ, whilst impressing was ‘flying solo’ on the pitch and maybe MA was ,not surprisingly,  busy on other deals. If MA (our best closer of deals) wasn’t there then maybe that was a mistake on our part. If that was the case then I think we can be confident that next time he will be there for such a crucial deal. 

[Orbital]

22 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Pah. It's gone. Let's just hope we get Afobe firing - I think he could be a better bet over a long season of championship football. 

Love your optimism, Reggie, but I’ll wager a tenner that Nketia is higher in the scoring charts at the end of the season. Having said that, I like Afobe and, given good service,  he could well be a 15-20 goal man by the end of the season - if we give him the service and he gets his mojo back.

[intercity]

10 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Moral of the story? Be very wary of doing further loan business with Arsenal. If Emery’s dithering is typical of the man, and he has the last word, he could be a nightmare to deal with. The fact that it went to the wire after we’d been given reason to think we were likely to get the player seems to have had a distorting effect on our recruitment strategy, and left us scrabbling around for last minute deals. Why take the risk of a repeat of this shambles? Our well established links with Chelsea appear to be based on mutual respect and trust and we’d be better off cultivating that source than having to try to sell ourselves every time an Arsenal youngster becomes available - especially as, for all the supposed thoroughness and professionalism of the process, there remains the distinct impression that personal connections might well have swung it in the end. Screw ‘em.

It's quite ironic how it is being heralded as super-professional when a) Arsenal's treatment of the other clubs and b) this personal connection that may have won it for Leeds have little to do with professionalism whatsoever.

The article does a good job of dressing it up. Fortunately plenty of other clubs to do business with.

[antlers]

Good insight into what had happened, its good to put some details to the scenario as when it was playing out nobody had a clue what was going on.

Leave Arsenal youngsters alone now, we cant be relying on them when their management is so indecisive. Time was running out for us and we are quite lucky to get Afobe in at such short notice. The best revenge we can get now is finishing above Leeds in the league and Afobe scoring more than Nketiah.

[Southport Red]

4 minutes ago, Orbital said:

Love your optimism, Reggie, but I’ll wager a tenner that Nketia is higher in the scoring charts at the end of the season. 

Depends how much Leeds use him. The Chelsea boys got nowt and Bamford isn’t going to be saying ‘after you, old boy’. 

[davidoldfart]

21 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Moral of the story? Be very wary of doing further loan business with Arsenal. If Emery’s dithering is typical of the man, and he has the last word, he could be a nightmare to deal with. The fact that it went to the wire after we’d been given reason to think we were likely to get the player seems to have had a distorting effect on our recruitment strategy, and left us scrabbling around for last minute deals. Why take the risk of a repeat of this shambles? Our well established links with Chelsea appear to be based on mutual respect and trust and we’d be better off cultivating that source than having to try to sell ourselves every time an Arsenal youngster becomes available - especially as, for all the supposed thoroughness and professionalism of the process, there remains the distinct impression that personal connections might well have swung it I the end. Screw ‘em.

Think in the final analysis it was the absolute detail Leeds went into on their tactics, strategy and video clips of how the lad played and how he would fit into their style of play.That and the obvious exposure on Sky (3x in first 3 games !!!) Plus the friendship with the Arsenal manager and a big cheque (over£3m)

Sure LJs presentation was polished but probably edged by the detail used by Leeds - maybe some learning for the City team.

Coming a close second will stand us in good stead should we call on Arsenal again, and good experience for future Premier League dealings.

 

 

[Notbarrymanc]

1 hour ago, walnutroof said:

One part doesn’t make sense, if Dusseldorf were at the front of the queue why did city arrange a medical? 

Nothing in that article fits the narrative of last week of arsenal assuring city that we were their first choice and the transfer being all but agreed before Leeds crashed the party, rather it paints a picture of Leeds having done their homework more so than us and Dusseldorf and city then jumping the gun in arranging a medical

It was probably their way of putting a foot down and implementing a deadline. Either he’s here at the medical tomorrow morning or we’re moving on. 

[Red Skin]

19 minutes ago, Johnny Musicworks said:

It sounds like LJ, whilst impressing was ‘flying solo’ on the pitch and maybe MA was ,not surprisingly,  busy on other deals. If MA (our best closer of deals) wasn’t there then maybe that was a mistake on our part. If that was the case then I think we can be confident that next time he will be there for such a crucial deal. 

Pure conjecture on your part.

My reading of it is all competing clubs had met the financial terms of the loan, and this was a straight footballing conversation.  No need for MA to attend.

As Major said, we've come a long way and I suspect the personal relationship sealed it for Leeds.

[AshtonGreat]

30 minutes ago, swanker said:

When all’s said and done, It’s not what you know it’s who you know. Arsenal’s manager and the guy from Leeds have known each other for a long time. You can’t tell me that didn’t effect the outcome in some way. 

I still hope it doesn’t go well for the lad at Leeds because of the way we were messed around. 

These are my sentiments exactly. It's a fascinating article but you can cut out all the waffle and pin most of it down to about two things: Leeds being a better side than us at the moment, and, most significantly, Emery's relationship with Orta. 

A few other points: 

- Leeds were said to have come into the frame at the last minute, and yet they scouted him 20 times? How does that add up then? 

- Why does everyone treat Bielsa like he's some sort of God? He hasn't won a lot in his career, usually resigns after about 1-2 seasons and bottled promotion last season. 

- If Arsenal's analysis was so thorough, how could they have missed Leeds' poor treatment of those Chelsea players? Then again, we've all witnessed Arsenal's misfiring on the pitch over the last 15 years. 

I think we're probably better off without Nketiah anyway. It sounds like there's hell of a lot of baggage and unwanted publicity surrounding him. 

 

[downendcity]

Seems that Arsenal have made substantial changes to the way they look at managing loans, and you can see this being the way that other top clubs will go.

It is interesting to read that clubs were required to "pitch" for the player, part of which presumably would be indicating how they would "look after him" while on loan. That being the case, it is a little strange that Leeds' track record in handling the three Chelsea loanees contrasts so markedly from our handling of Tammy, Kalas and Dasilva. I see that another poster commented that LJ flew "solo", but in the case of Tammy's loan, it was stated at the time that it was LJ's meeting with the player and his family that convinced him that we were the right place to come. 

In light of this it is hard to look past Emry's previous working relationship with Orta as being the clincher, although it is equally hard to escape the reality that Leeds' will probably be more successful than us, so giving the player more opportunities to shine, although it could equally be argued that Tammy's success in a struggling City team was the making of him!

[BRISTOL86]

Emery seems like a bit of a dick. Why recall him from Augsburg in Jan when he’s already over there to sign?

Assuming whoscored is correct and this was at the end of the Jan window, he didn’t play a single minute for Arsenal in any competition after that. 

[downendcity]

26 minutes ago, Johnny Musicworks said:

It sounds like LJ, whilst impressing was ‘flying solo’ on the pitch and maybe MA was ,not surprisingly,  busy on other deals. If MA (our best closer of deals) wasn’t there then maybe that was a mistake on our part. If that was the case then I think we can be confident that next time he will be there for such a crucial deal. 

LJ flying solo was the clincher in convincing Tammy Abraham, and his family, that we were his best option.

[Red Skin]

3 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

 

A few other points: 

- Leeds were said to have come into the frame at the last minute, and yet they scouted him 20 times? How does that add up then? 

- Why does everyone treat Bielsa like he's some sort of God? He hasn't won a lot in his career, usually resigns after about 1-2 seasons and bottled promotion last season. 

- If Arsenal's analysis was so thorough, how could they have missed Leeds' poor treatment of those Chelsea players? Then again, we've all witnessed Arsenal's misfiring on the pitch over the last 15 years. 

Leeds were doing succession planning in the event of losing Roofe.  That only happened late in the window.

Biesla is a respected coach.   It's all about the players development rather than winning things.  That's more of a consideration for an established pro on a perm move.

Yeah, an oversight on the Chelsea boys, but sound like they had reasons why the players didn't feature and these were accepted by Arsenal.  A message to EK that he isn't an automatic pick and needs to work hard too.  

[Orbital]

19 minutes ago, Southport Red said:

Depends how much Leeds use him. The Chelsea boys got nowt and Bamford isn’t going to be saying ‘after you, old boy’. 

The article implies playing time was an important factor in any deal. He is a direct replacement for Roofe, who was a starter before he left for Anderlecht.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting read, real insight there.

Reckon Bielsa and Orta relationship the key factor. Indeed we'll see it more and more- I remember saying it before and a good example of this might be Scott Carson to Man City on loan- one of Derby's higher earners, no loan fee but helps to free up the wage budget!

They could've approached any English player if they wanted to top up home grown quota. Rooney will get the media hype but a very astute appointment for them from a contact POV.

• Cocu worked with Brands at PSV a nice Everton link there- Probably helped them get Dowell ahead of Huddersfield?
• Cocu worked with Pep at Barcelona- dare say some of the Man City ex Barcelona hierarchy might know him too- could help with loans and indeed perhaps the Carson deal?
• Cocu was quite a successful player at Barcelona- another market to tap into?
• Quite a successful Dutch player too- young Dutch players will want to play with him.
• So too will PSV players given the Dutch club he most associated with as player and manager either those who know of him or who have worked with him but are now elsewhere.

Dare say there's one or two other categories or links I have forgot too?

Nketiah should get good game time at Leeds and will have plenty of chances to score given their pressing, possession game IMO.

[Southport Red]

1 minute ago, Orbital said:

The article implies playing time was an important factor in any deal. He is a direct replacement for Roofe, who was a starter before he left for Anderlecht.

Playing time was one area LEEDS would not have outscored us on, ironically. 

[Bar BS3]

1 hour ago, swanker said:

When all’s said and done, It’s not what you know it’s who you know. Arsenal’s manager and the guy from Leeds have known each other for a long time. You can’t tell me that didn’t effect the outcome in some way. 

I still hope it doesn’t go well for the lad at Leeds because of the way we were messed around. 

This. The article is a load of hot air imo. 

We had the deal done, had worked meticulously all summer to tick all of Arsenal’s boxes, then at the last minute, Arsenal's mate from Leeds piped up and they did the dirty on us. 

And what was with Eddies “shhh” celebration about after is goal against Salford. SALFORD FFS! Jumped up little *****!  

[Red-Robbo]

Anyone reading that article will realise the club did everything it could to make this transfer happen. The only potential mistake was to overly focus on just one target.

Be nice to see Afobe re-ignite his Championship career here. After an unhappy time at Stoke, he may not have the Big Time Charley attitude that comes with the "next big thing" type of players.

[Northern Red]

55 minutes ago, erndogz said:

Where's the Bristol City writer for The Athletic? They seem to be chucking big money at journalists. Good article that, not sure the full price sub is worth it.

They're actively trying to put local newspapers out of business. I would encourage anyone who finds an article worth reading on there to share it on here so that people don't have to give them any money for subscriptions. 

[spudski]

I dare say watching us against Leeds played a big factor to, being so fresh in the mind.

If I was a player of his skill, I wouldn't have witnessed what I was being sold from us, on that performance.

[Leveller]

A surprising number of posters are continuing to believe the rumours that we were “at the head of the queue” and suddenly gazumped at the end. This makes both Arsenal and Leeds look bad, which is perhaps what they prefer - that we were the good guys and were robbed.

I see no reason not to believe the article and the other stories that Arsenal decided very late on to loan NE out.

On that basis, BCFC planned well and expressed an early interest. However, the decision was left late and based on presentations and detailed analysis of the options. Regardless of Orta, and pitching quite late, Leeds were always strong and likely to win that competition.

So, none of the clubs did anything dishonourable and City fell a bit short despite a good effort. Conspiracy theorists please note.

[CyderInACan]

52 minutes ago, Orbital said:

Love your optimism, Reggie, but I’ll wager a tenner that Nketia is higher in the scoring charts at the end of the season. Having said that, I like Afobe and, given good service,  he could well be a 15-20 goal man by the end of the season - if we give him the service and he gets his mojo back.

We'll see, but I expect a fully focussed Afobe to be scoring goals and also being a leader off the pitch too. Very experienced given he's still relatively young-ish. 

[Johnny Musicworks]

42 minutes ago, RedSkin said:

Pure conjecture on your part.

My reading of it is all competing clubs had met the financial terms of the loan, and this was a straight footballing conversation.  No need for MA to attend.

As Major said, we've come a long way and I suspect the personal relationship sealed it for Leeds.

Yes purely conjecture and no disrespect intended to LJ but knowing how we analyse everything with the finest of details it will not have gone unnoticed if Leeds pitch was conducted by a ‘suit’ maybe their equivalent of MA. 

Ar the end of the day even with MA it may well  have come down to the ‘big club’ syndrome as others have said. However it is good to know the sort of respect we now have in the football world and how close we came. In my opinion Afobe may just turn out to be a better option, with a chance to buy if it works out.

[And Its Smith]

@redordead1 assume you subscribe to The Athletic to get that article?  If so, are you finding it value for money? In two minds whether to subscribe or not 

[Red Skin]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Musicworks said:

it will not have gone unnoticed if Leeds pitch was conducted by a ‘suit’ maybe their equivalent of MA. 

We know who conducted it for Leeds, it was Orta.   It was the person in the room and fact that Biesla and Orta have a personal relationship that clinched it in my mind, not what they were wearing.

Personally, from Arsenal's perspective if we sent along MA to a football conversation I'd question our judgement.  Even as support the LJ.  I'd just want to hear LJ.

Think the club did all they could in this instance and prefer to congratulate them on their efforts to go so close.

Only Salford I know, but the kids looks absolute class.  Great we'll at least see him play rather than have him rattle round in Arsenal's reserves.

Also very pleased with Afobe based on his performance at Birmingham.

[Simon bristol]

Dont want to beat the same drum again, but the club must have known they were in a 3 way shooting match for the player, and would have known the leeds connection to emery, yet still persevered with it, to the detriment of looking at other strikers, then had to struggle in the last hours of the window to get afobe in, despite having a multi million pound warchest from the webster sale. 

Its a harsh lesson, but i hope we learn from this in the future

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, Simon bristol said:

Dont want to beat the same drum again, but the club must have known they were in a 3 way shooting match for the player, and would have known the leeds connection to emery, yet still persevered with it, to the detriment of looking at other strikers, then had to struggle in the last hours of the window to get afobe in, despite having a multi million pound warchest from the webster sale. 

Its a harsh lesson, but i hope we learn from this in the future

How was it to the detriment of looking at other strikers?  Do you think the whole recruitment team just stared at the phone for a week? They would have been assuming the worst on this and following other leads 

[Kid in the Riot]

5 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Dont want to beat the same drum again, but the club must have known they were in a 3 way shooting match for the player, and would have known the leeds connection to emery, yet still persevered with it, to the detriment of looking at other strikers, then had to struggle in the last hours of the window to get afobe in, despite having a multi million pound warchest from the webster sale. 

Its a harsh lesson, but i hope we learn from this in the future

Only with less than a week of the window left did Leeds become interested due to the sale of Roofe. Up until then I still believe he was heading our way, despite the interest from Fortuna.

As for how big a part the pitch played in securing Nketiah's services, let's see how much he plays at Leeds. Still think he would get more game time here this season than at Leeds.

[Leveller]

4 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Dont want to beat the same drum again, but the club must have known they were in a 3 way shooting match for the player, and would have known the leeds connection to emery, yet still persevered with it, to the detriment of looking at other strikers, then had to struggle in the last hours of the window to get afobe in, despite having a multi million pound warchest from the webster sale. 

Its a harsh lesson, but i hope we learn from this in the future

That assumes that Afobe was a last minute panic buy. It’s more likely that he was on a Plan B list that had been in place for weeks. Just because it was a surprise to us, doesn’t mean he wasn’t high on the list of affordable options all along.

[spudski]

7 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Only with less than a week of the window left did Leeds become interested due to the sale of Roofe. Up until then I still believe he was heading our way, despite the interest from Fortuna.

As for how big a part the pitch played in securing Nketiah's services, let's see how much he plays at Leeds. Still think he would get more game time here this season than at Leeds.

Even if they did come in late after the Roofe move, they had scouted him 20 odd times, 12 times in the past season, according to that article.

Also they would have had to work overtime to produce a detailed presentation in such a short time. So imo would have had lots of details to hand before that presentation.

I'm only guessing...but because of the personal relationship, they were given a heads up when Emery eventually made the decision to let him go out on loan.

All coinciding with the Roofe move.

Like you say...it will be interesting to see how much game time he gets.

[brady bunch]

37 minutes ago, spudski said:

I dare say watching us against Leeds played a big factor to, being so fresh in the mind.

If I was a player of his skill, I wouldn't have witnessed what I was being sold from us, on that performance.

I am surprised this has not been mentioned more, Leeds outplaying us in the opening game and also looking sharper, fitter and more organised in the process, will have been a major factor in the players decision. He will have certainly watched that game and made up his mind after it.

Having said that, I am more then happy with Afobe and if he looks sharp and fit and I think he could easily out score Nketiah over the season.

[BRISTOL86]

6 minutes ago, brady bunch said:

I am surprised this has not been mentioned more, Leeds outplaying us in the opening game and also looking sharper, fitter and more organised in the process, will have been a major factor in the players decision. He will have certainly watched that game and made up his mind after it.

Having said that, I am more then happy with Afobe and if he looks sharp and fit and I think he could easily out score Nketiah over the season.

I’d be gobsmacked (but delighted) if that happens. Sadly Leeds have got by orders of magnitude the better player IMO and in that team he’ll have so many good chances. 

[TBW]

Why have you made the text so big? I don't mind the article being long but reading that is super uncomfortable. 

[Kid in the Riot]

32 minutes ago, spudski said:

Even if they did come in late after the Roofe move, they had scouted him 20 odd times, 12 times in the past season, according to that article.

Also they would have had to work overtime to produce a detailed presentation in such a short time. So imo would have had lots of details to hand before that presentation.

I'm only guessing...but because of the personal relationship, they were given a heads up when Emery eventually made the decision to let him go out on loan.

All coinciding with the Roofe move.

Like you say...it will be interesting to see how much game time he gets.

Hardly a surprise that Leeds are scouting Arsenal or their u23s though....they wouldn't have just been watching Nketiah and of course they'd have had loads of data and detail on him given he's one of the bright young English talents. 

I'm a bit tired of Leeds and Bielsa being made out to be this revolutionary club that uses so much data and scouts opposition teams in great detail. Most top level clubs do it now, even us but because it's Bielsa and Leeds the media lap it up...

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, Johnny Musicworks said:

It sounds like LJ, whilst impressing was ‘flying solo’ on the pitch and maybe MA was ,not surprisingly,  busy on other deals. If MA (our best closer of deals) wasn’t there then maybe that was a mistake on our part. If that was the case then I think we can be confident that next time he will be there for such a crucial deal. 

Iam not sure that anyone could ‘ trump ‘ the bonds of friendship already mentioned.

MA is good but don’t underestimate LJ. who is the game director and that is was Arsenal were looking for more than the financial side of the deal.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, walnutroof said:

One part doesn’t make sense, if Dusseldorf were at the front of the queue why did city arrange a medical? 

Nothing in that article fits the narrative of last week of arsenal assuring city that we were their first choice and the transfer being all but agreed before Leeds crashed the party, rather it paints a picture of Leeds having done their homework more so than us and Dusseldorf and city then jumping the gun in arranging a medical

We don’t know the truth of that narrative do we. That’s the issue with social media. We can believe what we want to believe. 

2 hours ago, CliftonCliff said:

Moral of the story? Be very wary of doing further loan business with Arsenal. If Emery’s dithering is typical of the man, and he has the last word, he could be a nightmare to deal with. The fact that it went to the wire after we’d been given reason to think we were likely to get the player seems to have had a distorting effect on our recruitment strategy, and left us scrabbling around for last minute deals. Why take the risk of a repeat of this shambles? Our well established links with Chelsea appear to be based on mutual respect and trust and we’d be better off cultivating that source than having to try to sell ourselves every time an Arsenal youngster becomes available - especially as, for all the supposed thoroughness and professionalism of the process, there remains the distinct impression that personal connections might well have swung it in the end. Screw ‘em.

Agree. Our relationship with Arsenal will be tainted, especially when you hear from “enemies” like Warnock saying we were very professional with the Pack deal. Peterborough said the same re Eisa. 

[BRISTOL86]

29 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Hardly a surprise that Leeds are scouting Arsenal or their u23s though....they wouldn't have just been watching Nketiah and of course they'd have had loads of data and detail on him given he's one of the bright young English talents. 

I'm a bit tired of Leeds and Bielsa being made out to be this revolutionary club that uses so much data and scouts opposition teams in great detail. Most top level clubs do it now, even us but because it's Bielsa and Leeds the media lap it up...

Agreed. The Bielsa love fest is getting old fast. Hope they bottle it again this year.

[Kid in the Riot]

1 minute ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Agreed. The Bielsa love fest is getting old fast. Hope they bottle it again this year.

I just remember that local Leeds journo pouring over the presentation Bielsa gave them after spygate showing all the detailed info he had on opposition teams, stats etc and thinking, hang on LJ did this at a Q&A to supporters in the West Stand about 9 months previous...

[OldlandReddies]

From what was said in that article regarding the Chelsea kids on loan at Leeds, I can't understand why Arsenal let him go there. No way will the stubborn Bielsa give a shit about being 'fined' for not playing him enough. He doesn't ever play with 2 up top so that straight away limits his opportunities. Bielsa has not disguised his love of Bamford. He is his first choice striker. For as long as Bamford stays fit, Eddie will have to get used to just playing in cup games up top, being used out wide or, more often than not, getting plenty of splinters on the bench. Things would have been so much different for him here. Arsenal have made a big mistake.

[Merrick's Marvels]

3 hours ago, CyderInACan said:

Pah. It's gone. Let's just hope we get Afobe firing - I think he could be a better bet over a long season of championship football. 

My sentiments too.

I'm just concerned our manager has spent the summer drawing up tactics, planning how he wants us to play etc etc and central to all that was a ball-playing centre-half and a nippy little striker who could get us 20 goals....

As they say, the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.

[redordead1]

1 hour ago, RedDave said:

@redordead1 assume you subscribe to The Athletic to get that article?  If so, are you finding it value for money? In two minds whether to subscribe or not 

I don't actually, although considering it now.

It was shared by a journalist I follow on Twitter and I downloaded the app. You get 3 articles free before having to sign up.

[spudski]

49 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I just remember that local Leeds journo pouring over the presentation Bielsa gave them after spygate showing all the detailed info he had on opposition teams, stats etc and thinking, hang on LJ did this at a Q&A to supporters in the West Stand about 9 months previous...

Totally agree...and if I remember rightly many took the piss for LJ showing power point presentation at the time.

It's the norm, and has been a while now.

Young players engage more with presentation and apps, rather than old coaching methods. They want to express themselves...but find it difficult sometimes to open up vocally and often need a crutch to do so.

Even my love of good old fashioned Subbuteo has been introduced into the England changing room.

The Coaches found the tactile approach encouraged players to express themselves more vocally and interact by moving the figures around showing moves.

I digress...but football has moved on so much, and so has the way people think and interact. It's the Coaches that realise this that progress imo.

I realise you know all this mate...just openly chatting

[CliftonCliff]

37 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Agree. Our relationship with Arsenal will be tainted, especially when you hear from “enemies” like Warnock saying we were very professional with the Pack deal. Peterborough said the same re Eisa. 

I'm also a bit uncomfortable with the underlying implications of the insistence on what appears to have become a very formal procedure, with up-market, slick presentations and all the rest of it. Yes, I know it seems commendably professional and thorough on the face of it, but what gives the lie to that is the long drawn-out procrastination of Emery, ending with a strong whiff of suspicion that, after all that bloody performance, the outcome was probably determined by some sort of old boys' network, meaning that, for all the fancy posturing, we have at bottom been effectively dicked around by some guy who ends up doing his old mate a favour. 

Of course the Arsenals and Chelseas of this world will want to assure themselves that they are loaning young players to clubs where they will be well looked after and will benefit from game time, but there is nevertheless something in it of being called into the headmaster's study to give an account of yourself that I find a bit arrogant and patronising. We're a big, famous club and you are of much lower status: demonstrate to us why we should loan our valuable players to the likes of you. OK, I know it's the reality of the world and the way the game is, but that doesn't mean one has to like it - or necessarily bow to it.

In that fantasy world where things work out just as you would want them to, City draw Arsenal at home in the FA Cup and beat them with a team well-stocked with ex-Chelsea players, with Afobe scoring a hat-trick playing in the position that Nketiah would have occupied, whilst Leeds choke at the end of the season, miss promotion again and Nketiah performs disappointingly while being out-scored in the Championship by Benik.

If only. But it would be deeply gratifying... 

[Coppello]

@RedDave I subscribed to The Athletic a couple of weeks ago and it is excellent. The premise of it is that you generally have one reporter covering each club in the Premier League and about 5 Championship clubs are followed. City aren't one of them but they do have some excellent articles on wider football and have recruited some of the best football journalists in the industry. A few excellent pieces this week, include Michael Cox analysing the new goal kick rule and how clubs have approach it from a tactical angle, a piece from Rafa explaining why he couldn't stay on at Newcastle and also a excellent article on Emiliano Sala where they flew out to Argentina to meet his family and friends. 

If you're into American sports such as NFL you also get all of their coverage too which is a bonus. And no, I'm not on commission! 

[Southport Red]

Seem to remember stories of Liverpool wantingto fine us for not playing Kent ‘enough’. 

[italian dave]

The article doesn’t really explain what work we did prior to Leeds appearing on the scene. Pretty sure we’d have done more than just ‘express an interest’. 

At the end of the day if he doesn’t want to be here, and Arsenal don’t want him here, then it’s best he isn’t. I doubt we’ll have much faith or trust in Arsenal going forward though.

And a bit of me still hopes that his time at Leeds all ends up going a bit Ryan Kent. 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

 

 

Gary to Lee " sit down son, your Mum's got the tea ready"

Lee " thanks Dad- what is it?"

Gary: "Mum's made your favourite,Steak and Ale pie"

Lee:" Yummy"

Gary " any chance of Lemonheigh Evans and Edwards?" 

Lee " Sure thing, Dad"

Gary "thanks, son, you're a good lad - pass the salt"

 

 

Arsenal couldn't arrange a decent loan transaction if their life depended on it

[CyderInACan]

29 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

we have at bottom been effectively dicked around

Dicked around the bottom, eh. Saucy. 

[Olé]

4 hours ago, intercity said:

It's quite ironic how it is being heralded as super-professional when a) Arsenal's treatment of the other clubs and b) this personal connection that may have won it for Leeds have little to do with professionalism whatsoever.

The article does a good job of dressing it up. Fortunately plenty of other clubs to do business with.

Well said - and others on the thread have said the same - what a load of ****. Interesting story but a complete PR exercise for Leeds that spins an impossible story.

I assume this is Phil Hay the ex Leeds local evening paper journo, who left to join this new platform (Leeds are one of only two clubs outside the Prem that are covered). He always writes to keep the Leeds fans happy, and we know how emotional they all are - last season he was writing pieces for them about Steve Lansdown and about sock-gate. 

Well written, but implying City arrange medicals out of pure hope is another of his re-writes of history designed to give the Leeds fans something to crow about at our expense. Not to mention the sheer fantasy of casting them as the only team to make a detailed presentation or Arsenal being uniquely detailed yet letting Leeds wade in on the last day.

No doubt this sort of journalism will have the Leeds fans masturbating furiously and signing up  to "The Athletic" in their droves. Never understood the arrogance of fans who need to regularly read how important they are. Doesn't really seem like the point of journalism to me - but I guess it's good for subscriptions that 'Leeds would have taken more'. 

[maxjak]

3 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

This. The article is a load of hot air imo. 

We had the deal done, had worked meticulously all summer to tick all of Arsenal’s boxes, then at the last minute, Arsenal's mate from Leeds piped up and they did the dirty on us. 

And what was with Eddies “shhh” celebration about after is goal against Salford. SALFORD FFS! Jumped up little *****!  

A little bitter then?   I can't blame Arsenal for wanting whats best for a young player who will probably end up as one of the best strikers around?   We had no divine right to get him, but i would have loved to hear LJ's pitch, I imagine it would have  been a great listen, and although we didn;t get him, we have established a connection with Arsenal for any possible loans down the line, which despite your own view on Arsenal, I think their a great  club.   Whatever happened Nketiah would have been here one season, then gone, so personally i would rather have a player who we had a chance of keeping, and in the meantime keep developing Sememyo for the future. Leeds will never be able to buy him even if they win the league, so I'm really not bothered........I'd rather watch our very own Sideshow Bob!!

[CliftonCliff]

22 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Dicked around the bottom, eh. Saucy. 

On reflection, I could have phrased that better...

[Leveller]

3 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Only with less than a week of the window left did Leeds become interested due to the sale of Roofe. Up until then I still believe he was heading our way, despite the interest from Fortuna.

As for how big a part the pitch played in securing Nketiah's services, let's see how much he plays at Leeds. Still think he would get more game time here this season than at Leeds.

The sale of Roofe was clearly an option throughout the summer, so Leeds would have needed an option to replace him. It seems very unlikely their interest in Nketiah popped up out of nowhere with days to go. Like us, they would have had him on a list of possibles in case of need. Their need just crystallised a bit later, I guess. I just don’t buy all the bitterness about being gazumped.

[Midred]

3 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Only with less than a week of the window left did Leeds become interested due to the sale of Roofe. Up until then I still believe he was heading our way, despite the interest from Fortuna.

As for how big a part the pitch played in securing Nketiah's services, let's see how much he plays at Leeds. Still think he would get more game time here this season than at Leeds.

For such an in depth analysis  and match/ training presentation I  find it hard to believe that Leeds could have put this together in a week. Was this always the plan if Roofe was sold? Also would Leeds been privy to all the knowledge of the player without insider help?