Is our failure to recruit quality fullback alternatives going to affect our youth the most?

[Crimson Crayola]

I'll start by saying I wasnt at the game last night and I don't want to take away from what was a quality well deserved away win at a tough place to play on the road. But as we have done many times before we went from a position  of dominance to flat out defending for our lives to rescue 3 vital points.

This has been a common sight over the last two seasons where over the last 50 or so games I cant recall really dismantling a team by more than 2 goals come the final whistle.

I appreciate I'm asking for a lot but LJ is clearly a conservative manager when it comes to youth and he requires a significant scoreline to risk the likes of Semenyo, Szmodics or Jennah.

Considering our flanks looks like our weakest area by far, is it in fact our failure to recruit better that has left some of our talented players out in the cold? It's very early in the season and we've had a tough start but I have sneaking suspicion we wont be seeing as much of the youth as we'd like.

[Busterrimes]

I think in Pereira and DaSilva we have good full backs. One needs to settle and obviously the other is injured

[BobBobSuperBob]

9 minutes ago, Just8 said:

I'll start by saying I wasnt at the game last night and I don't want to take away from what was a quality well deserved away win at a tough place to play on the road. But as we have done many times before we went from a position  of dominance to flat out defending for our lives to rescue 3 vital points.

This has been a common sight over the last two seasons where over the last 50 or so games I cant recall really dismantling a team by more than 2 goals come the final whistle.

I appreciate I'm asking for a lot but LJ is clearly a conservative manager when it comes to youth and he requires a significant scoreline to risk the likes of Semenyo, Szmodics or Jennah.

Considering our flanks looks like our weakest area by far, is it in fact our failure to recruit better that has left some of our talented players out in the cold? It's very early in the season and we've had a tough start but I have sneaking suspicion we wont be seeing as much of the youth as we'd like.

Which young players do you think should be given a starting spot or playing a bigger role  ?

Or you’d like to see  ?

 

(Personally I want us to build a good side , if that happens with young players great bonus , but I want the best side we can build)

 

[Robbored]

12 minutes ago, Just8 said:

I'll start by saying I wasnt at the game last night and I don't want to take away from what was a quality well deserved away win at a tough place to play on the road. But as we have done many times before we went from a position  of dominance to flat out defending for our lives to rescue 3 vital points.

That was down to Derby doing what any team would do 0-2 down - they went for it and put us under considerable pressure but our midfield and solid defence denied them

This has been a common sight over the last two seasons where over the last 50 or so games I cant recall really dismantling a team by more than 2 goals come the final whistle.

I appreciate I'm asking for a lot but LJ is clearly a conservative manager when it comes to youth and he requires a significant scoreline to risk the likes of Semenyo, Szmodics or Jennah.

Championship points are the absolute bottom line and unless a young player such as Messengo has special talent then playing them is too risky. What the club do is develop young players - TM for example and Kelly, Reid and Bryan before him.

Considering our flanks looks like our weakest area by far, is it in fact our failure to recruit better that has left some of our talented players out in the cold? It's very early in the season and we've had a tough start but I have sneaking suspicion we wont be seeing as much of the youth as we'd like.

Who would you play the then?

 

 

[Fiale]

28 minutes ago, Just8 said:

I'll start by saying I wasnt at the game last night and I don't want to take away from what was a quality well deserved away win at a tough place to play on the road. But as we have done many times before we went from a position  of dominance to flat out defending for our lives to rescue 3 vital points.

This has been a common sight over the last two seasons where over the last 50 or so games I cant recall really dismantling a team by more than 2 goals come the final whistle.

I appreciate I'm asking for a lot but LJ is clearly a conservative manager when it comes to youth and he requires a significant scoreline to risk the likes of Semenyo, Szmodics or Jennah.

Considering our flanks looks like our weakest area by far, is it in fact our failure to recruit better that has left some of our talented players out in the cold? It's very early in the season and we've had a tough start but I have sneaking suspicion we wont be seeing as much of the youth as we'd like.

 

 

It is strange some teams get a couple of goals ahead and the opposition sit in despair as they just keep possession passing the ball around, winding down the clock, it's so frustrating. Then you get the teams that go a couple of goals ahead, and are under the cosh for 40-60 minutes whilst the opposition go all out on them, not even being able to get out their own half, 11 players defending and trying to see out a long period. We definitely fall in the latter. We really need to work on a way to alleviate pressure in these circumstances.

[Crimson Crayola]

30 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Which young players do you think should be given a starting spot or playing a bigger role  ?

Or you’d like to see  ?

 

(Personally I want us to build a good side , if that happens with young players great bonus , but I want the best side we can build)

 

Those listed (Jennah when fit) but appreciate this will take time and the team needs to settle. I agree establishing a good side is vital but I just cant see us seeing a 3-0 scoreline at the moment.

[Prinny]

2 minutes ago, Just8 said:

Those listed (Jennah when fit) but appreciate this will take time and the team needs to settle. I agree establishing a good side is vital but I just cant see us seeing a 3-0 scoreline at the moment.

Right, so who are you dropping for Semenyo, Szmodics and Janneh?

[Nathandao]

2 minutes ago, Just8 said:

Those listed (Jennah when fit) but appreciate this will take time and the team needs to settle. I agree establishing a good side is vital but I just cant see us seeing a 3-0 scoreline at the moment.

What about against QPR at the weekend? They never really looked like scoring and we had another 2 or 3 chances to make it 3/4-0...

[BobBobSuperBob]

15 minutes ago, Just8 said:

Those listed (Jennah when fit) but appreciate this will take time and the team needs to settle. I agree establishing a good side is vital but I just cant see us seeing a 3-0 scoreline at the moment.

Ah Ok - I can see what you’re suggesting - If we could get to 3-0 up we could blood more youngsters 

Fair enough - That’s always the ideal for any manager of any side but

 IMHO

This is the Championship , brutal and unforgiving - a real step up from anything below and as a result a massive jump for any young player to go to from U23 football (Players Like Massengo are rare and exceptional) 

And even 3-0  at this level ....I’ll whisper quietly .....Sunderland.....Derby....

So for me LJ has a really difficult task getting young players minute time , unless they are exceptional 

As I said on the Brian Tinnion thread - It’s easy for others to select youngsters for you when their job is not on the line

and on another thread

that I actually think LJ has been quite brave in giving players like Kelly , OLeary, Semenyo And now Massengo game time and I Personally haven't seen evidence of a young player who could feel hard done by not getting more game time , Morrell possibly being the closest

Producing young players and pathways isn’t always compatible with progression or success on the pitch

 

[downendcity]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Ah Ok - I can see what you’re suggesting - If we could get to 3-0 up we could blood more youngsters 

That’s always the ideal for any manager of any side but  

This is the Championship , brutal and unforgiving - a real step up from anything below and as a result a massive jump for any young player to go to from U23 football (Players Like Massengo are rare and exceptional) 

And even 3-0  at this level ....I’ll whisper quietly .....Sunderland.....Derby....

That's why LJ has chosen to stick at 2-0 .

[Riaz]

We’ve invested in quality on the left side. 

On the right side it remains to be seen. Why he isn’t playing Pereira all the time so he can’t get used to the English game, is beyond me.

i know Jack Hunt assisted a goal last night, but that was merely the law of averages. He lost the ball countless times and is woeful going forward. 

Pretty confident Perieira is a lot better but we shall see 

[Crimson Crayola]

36 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Right, so who are you dropping for Semenyo, Szmodics and Janneh?

As another poster pointed out, I'm talking subs rather than dropping anyone.

[Prinny]

Substitutions then.

We go three nil up in last nights game, who do you take off for the players you want on?

And you have to drop people to fit those players in the squad. I.E. Semenyo for Taylor. So who are you dropping from the bench for Janneh?

[bcfc01]

32 minutes ago, Riaz said:

We’ve invested in quality on the left side. 

On the right side it remains to be seen. Why he isn’t playing Pereira all the time so he can’t get used to the English game, is beyond me.

i know Jack Hunt assisted a goal last night, but that was merely the law of averages. He lost the ball countless times and is woeful going forward. 

Pretty confident Perieira is a lot better but we shall see 

I believe that Pereira is more of a full back than a wing back.

Read that from somewhere credible but can't remember where.

He's only 21 so maybe a bit to learn yet - plenty of time for him.

[Robbored]

37 minutes ago, Riaz said:

On the right side it remains to be seen. Why he isn’t playing Pereira all the time so he can’t get used to the English game, is beyond me.

Pretty confident Perieira is a lot better but we shall see 

Pereira received a dead leg at Loftus Rd last week and hasn’t fully recovered and I guess that’s the reason why he didn’t start on Saturday or last night.

LJ didn’t want to risk him.

Its probable that he’ll start against Boro on Saturday.He should be 100% by then.

 

[Riaz]

14 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

I believe that Pereira is more of a full back than a wing back.

Read that from somewhere credible but can't remember where.

He's only 21 so maybe a bit to learn yet - plenty of time for him.

Same can be said for Jack Hunt.

8 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Pereira received a dead leg at Loftus Rd last week and hasn’t fully recovered and I guess that’s the reason why he didn’t start on Saturday or last night.

LJ didn’t want to risk him.

Its probable that he’ll start against Boro on Saturday.He should be 100% by then.

 

Dead leg does not last that long. Not 10 days....

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Same can be said for Jack Hunt.

Dead leg does not last that long. Not 10 days....

Depends on how deep it is - if the bone gets bruised which seems most likely in Pereira’s case, it obviously takes longer to heal than if were just muscular.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Just8 said:

I'll start by saying I wasnt at the game last night and I don't want to take away from what was a quality well deserved away win at a tough place to play on the road. But as we have done many times before we went from a position  of dominance to flat out defending for our lives to rescue 3 vital points.

This has been a common sight over the last two seasons where over the last 50 or so games I cant recall really dismantling a team by more than 2 goals come the final whistle.

I appreciate I'm asking for a lot but LJ is clearly a conservative manager when it comes to youth and he requires a significant scoreline to risk the likes of Semenyo, Szmodics or Jennah.

Considering our flanks looks like our weakest area by far, is it in fact our failure to recruit better that has left some of our talented players out in the cold? It's very early in the season and we've had a tough start but I have sneaking suspicion we wont be seeing as much of the youth as we'd like.

As we are playing wing backs, I am hoping LJ is looking at Eliasson and COD as options on that left side. And on the right I think we are ok with Pereira, Hunt (who can be good but not so much at the moment), and Brownhill has played very well there in the past.

[MarcusX]

47 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Same can be said for Jack Hunt.

Dead leg does not last that long. Not 10 days....

Yes it can

[Riaz]

41 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Depends on how deep it is - if the bone gets bruised which seems most likely in Pereira’s case, it obviously takes longer to heal than if were just muscular.

Hope you are right and he starts saturday!

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Riaz said:

We’ve invested in quality on the left side. 

On the right side it remains to be seen. Why he isn’t playing Pereira all the time so he can’t get used to the English game, is beyond me.

i know Jack Hunt assisted a goal last night, but that was merely the law of averages. He lost the ball countless times and is woeful going forward. 

Pretty confident Perieira is a lot better but we shall see 

I think Pereira will ultimately be first choice, but suspect it might’ve been a case of not changing a winning side and familiarity of teammates / system.

Hunt was frustrating with the ball (trying to pass through Derby players 3/4 times), but he got through some miles last night, and played quite high to push Malone (a very tidy LB) back. 

I thought he worked well with Moore last night.

And great legs to support Weimann’s press on Roos to press Malone that led to Brownhill’s goal. 

[Crimson Crayola]

3 hours ago, Prinny said:

Substitutions then.

We go three nil up in last nights game, who do you take off for the players you want on?

And you have to drop people to fit those players in the squad. I.E. Semenyo for Taylor. So who are you dropping from the bench for Janneh?

Those decisions would be based on form on the training pitch and understanding between players. But if I had yesterdays bench and we were 3-0 up I would have wanted to see how Semenyo and Szmodics would do if they came on for Afobe and Palmer. As it was we weren't 3-0 up and coasting.

My point stands though, how often are fringe players going to be given an opportunity to gain vital minutes if either a. Lee doesn't trust them or b. We aren't winning by many goals?

[Monkeh]

I don’t get this, failure to get two quality fall backs, we signed two both got injured one is out for 5 months the other should start soon after recovering from a dead leg

[Crimson Crayola]

I'm sounding negative now and this really isn't intended. The win last night was brilliant, and some youth are breaking through. I just fear others may be being under utilised as we pursue promotion.

I guess that's the nature of the beast

3 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

I don’t get this, failure to get two quality fall backs, we signed two both got injured one is out for 5 months the other should start soon after recovering from a dead leg

We always looked light in cover for De Silva

[Numero Uno]

Left Back seems to be our biggest issue right now. Not criticising Rowe because he’s been asked to do a job in a position that isn’t his best and he’s giving his all to do it to the best of his ability. But it would be nice to have an alternative should it become a problem or he gets injured. Cameron Pring can’t be recalled as I understand it which leaves Nathan Baker being asked to “do a job” and the way he’s started the season we don’t want him shoved out to full back.

[Monkeh]

1 minute ago, Just8 said:

I'm sounding negative now and this really isn't intended. The win last night was brilliant, and some youth are breaking through. I just fear others may be being under utilised as we pursue promotion.

I guess that's the nature of the beast

We always looked light in cover for De Silva

We have Rowe who’s done more then a good enough job,

you cant really stockpile players, we’d have 3 or 4 fighting for one position which in turn leads to unhappy players which can spread and then all of a sudden you’ve got a upset dressing room not performing on the pitch and a fan base turning against them,

its a calculated gamble and the correct call,

you cant account for broken bones 

[Numero Uno]

6 minutes ago, Just8 said:

Those decisions would be based on form on the training pitch and understanding between players. But if I had yesterdays bench and we were 3-0 up I would have wanted to see how Semenyo and Szmodics would do if they came on for Afobe and Palmer. As it was we weren't 3-0 up and coasting.

My point stands though, how often are fringe players going to be given an opportunity to gain vital minutes if either a. Lee doesn't trust them or b. We aren't winning by many goals?

Semenyo will get minutes in due course, I’m sure of that. As will Smzodics. In simple terms Massengo gets his game time because he’s clearly a class above and can be trusted to start in big boys football........as proven in 225 minutes of football so far where even opposition fans are saying “who is this kid?”

[Crimson Crayola]

12 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Semenyo will get minutes in due course, I’m sure of that. As will Smzodics. In simple terms Massengo gets his game time because he’s clearly a class above and can be trusted to start in big boys football........as proven in 225 minutes of football so far where even opposition fans are saying “who is this kid?”

It certainly makes you feel a little smug as a city fan. Even pundits are surprised by him. Not to knock his talent but I think his hair does help set him apart. 

[Prinny]

5 hours ago, Just8 said:

Those decisions would be based on form on the training pitch and understanding between players.

So you'd do what's being done now, but you'd choose to ignore who the best players are for the situation and you'd just pick the players you like. I see.

6 hours ago, Just8 said:

But if I had yesterdays bench and we were 3-0 up I would have wanted to see how Semenyo and Szmodics would do if they came on for Afobe and Palmer. As it was we weren't 3-0 up and coasting.

but LJ is clearly a conservative manager when it comes to youth

So you want to take off 22 year old Kasey Palmer, for 23 year old Szmodics. Ok I see what you're going for now. Why do you want Sammy Szmodics to develop over Kasey Palmer?

6 hours ago, Just8 said:

My point stands though, how often are fringe players going to be given an opportunity to gain vital minutes if either a. Lee doesn't trust them or b. We aren't winning by many goals?

How often? EVERY SINGLE DAY! They are given an opportunity to earn the right to play EVERY SINGLE DAY! What on earth do you think Taylor Moore did? How did he gain playing time?

 By earning them. If they don't earn them, then they don't get the minutes. They go out on loan, they train, they play in developmental football and they take their chances when they come IF they come in the first team.

You are advocating Lee to weaken the team when we're playing competitive fixtures, to develop players who aren't good enough to play by his judgement because you want to see what they can do.

You're playing with other peoples money. It's too easy.

[Crimson Crayola]

1 hour ago, Prinny said:

So you'd do what's being done now, but you'd choose to ignore who the best players are for the situation and you'd just pick the players you like. I see.

So you want to take off 22 year old Kasey Palmer, for 23 year old Szmodics. Ok I see what you're going for now. Why do you want Sammy Szmodics to develop over Kasey Palmer?

How often? EVERY SINGLE DAY! They are given an opportunity to earn the right to play EVERY SINGLE DAY! What on earth do you think Taylor Moore did? How did he gain playing time?

 By earning them. If they don't earn them, then they don't get the minutes. They go out on loan, they train, they play in developmental football and they take their chances when they come IF they come in the first team.

You are advocating Lee to weaken the team when we're playing competitive fixtures, to develop players who aren't good enough to play by his judgement because you want to see what they can do.

You're playing with other peoples money. It's too easy.

Did you miss the point where I said about taking games beyond our oppositions reach before making such substitutions? Im not advocating that we take unnecessary risks. I just cant see these players getting much game time due to our inability to maintain significant leads. Get off your overly argumentative high horse and chill out.

[Monkeh]

3 minutes ago, Just8 said:

Did you miss the point where I said about taking games beyond our oppositions reach before making such substitutions? Im not advocating that we take unnecessary risks. I just cant see these players getting much game time due to our inability to maintain significant leads. Get off your overly argumentative high horse and chill out.

You can’t of been supporting city long,

in recent seasons we’ve been 3-0 2-0 4-2 up with 20 minutes to play and ended up drawing 3-3 2-2 and 5-5

 

[Crimson Crayola]

6 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

You can’t of been supporting city long,

in recent seasons we’ve been 3-0 2-0 4-2 up with 20 minutes to play and ended up drawing 3-3 2-2 and 5-5

 

I was there at the Sunderland game. I remember it well

[Prinny]

 

12 minutes ago, Just8 said:

Did you miss the point where I said about taking games beyond our oppositions reach before making such substitutions? Im not advocating that we take unnecessary risks. I just cant see these players getting much game time due to our inability to maintain significant leads. Get off your overly argumentative high horse and chill out.

Yes I understand the point. Your post is saying "Why don't we just sign the best players and coast the league?" then we can give these players I'm a fan of minutes despite any logic as to why they should get minutes. It's amazing.

You want us to sign better players so that we win easily, so that we can put on worse players and develop them. I'm sure we'd all like to have the best players, a squad of 26 of these players to cover for injuries, and to be 3-0 up after 10 minutes every week. Good points. We'd then of course be leaving out those better players to put the players you're a fan of on the bench.

You are advocating, that we take off the better players when we're ahead, to put on the worse players on to see what they can do in a competitive fixture. Can you explain why that is a necessary risk? Or rather more necessary than giving the better players time to play? Why do you favour Szmodics minutes over Palmer minutes?

You're admitting it's not about their quality because you want them on the bench not starting, it's not about age or experience as you proved with Kasey/Sammy, it's just you want to see what these players can do with no understanding of the cost of just picking who you like...

[cidered abroad]

31 minutes ago, Just8 said:

Did you miss the point where I said about taking games beyond our oppositions reach before making such substitutions? Im not advocating that we take unnecessary risks. I just cant see these players getting much game time due to our inability to maintain significant leads. Get off your overly argumentative high horse and chill out.

So do you believe that LJ at half time, should have ordered the squad to push forward for a third goal?

On one hand, that is clearly what should have been done.

Yet on the other hand, perhaps the tactics used were the correct ones. A 2-0 lead in football is seen as the worst of all. Do you go hard for 3-0 or sit on 2-0?

My guess is that 90% of managers would try to protect the lead as long as possible. Simply because if you concede early in the second half, the impetus passes to the home team. By being cautious, we kept the initiative until the last ten minutes. Thus the home side were rushing every play trying to score their second. Rushed play, shooting in desperation means they are less likely to be successful.

Correct tactics? I believe so!

The more successful we are now, the more chances those young members of the squad will get minutes under their belt.