The absolute state of Italian football

[redsince1994]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49576840

A group of Inter Milan fans claim Cagliari supporters were showing Romelu Lukaku a form of "respect" when they aimed monkey chants at him on Sunday.

Lukaku, who moved from Manchester United to Inter in the summer, was subjected to the racist abuse after scoring the winner in a 2-1 victory.

A statement from Inter fan group Curva Nord said "Italian fans are not racist" and the abuse was gamesmanship.

It added: "We are sorry you thought what happened in Cagliari was racist."

The open letter to the Belgian forward, published on the fans' Facebook page, also said: "You have to understand that Italy is not like many other north European countries where racism is a real problem.

"We understand that it could have seemed racist to you but it is not like that. In Italy we use some 'ways' only to 'help our teams' and to try to make our opponents nervous, not for racism but to mess them up.

"Please consider this attitude of Italian fans as a form of respect for the fact they are afraid of you for the goals you might score against their teams and not because they hate you or they are racist."

Lukaku, who said the game is "going backwards" in the wake of the abuse, stood and stared at fans behind the goal - where the chants had originated from - after scoring the winning goal.

Inter defender Milan Skriniar - who was seen putting his fingers to his lips to the Cagliari fans - in support of his team-mate condemned the fans' actions in a post-match interview.

The abuse received by Lukaku was the latest incident in which a black player has been racially abused on the pitch by Cagliari fans.

In a statement, Cagliari said it intends to "identify, isolate and ban those ignorant individuals whose shameful actions and behaviours are completely against those values that Cagliari Calcio strongly promotes in all their initiatives".

 

And this is the Inter fans saying this!

Managing to be racist, arrogant and patronising all at the same time.

The two quotes I have put in bold would literally be red flags for an abusive relationship!

[handsofclay]

In light of this, the KKK are owed a massive apology for the great respect they exhibited towards African Americans in the Deep South. They have been much maligned due to the efforts of Martin Luther King in misinterpreting their actions.

[Carey 6]

Inter fans effectively condoning it is very worrying. Cagliari fans are some of the worst offenders.

2017 - Muntari - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39786264

2018 - Matuidi - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42595501

2019 - Kean - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47793676

Now Lukaku. Wonder if Serie A will do anything about it though. 

[redsince1994]

1 minute ago, Carey 6 said:

Inter fans effectively condoning it is very worrying. Cagliari fans are some of the worst offenders.

2017 - Muntari - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39786264

2018 - Matuidi - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42595501

2019 - Kean - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47793676

Now Lukaku. Wonder if Serie A will do anything about it though. 

Pretty sure the Italian FA have already come out in saying they're going to ignore it. They apparently "condemned" it but a fat lot of good that will do if they're not prepared to take any sort of action.

[Red Army 75]

In this country we still have a lot to do but are slowly making inroads. Some countries abroad are light years behind in their way of thinking. On the terraces but more worrying of the terraces. If the powers at the top don’t condemn it publicly they have no hope. Tougher punishments need to be implemented across football. Starting with social media 

[Major Isewater]

Sadly , there is a rise in ‘ Nationalism ‘ all over the world ,even in England.

The human race is going to Hell in a handcart. 

We have learned nothing from history and for all our intelligence we have not made this world a better place. 

The visions offered by Gandhi , Mandela and Jesus lie sullied in the gutter whilst dictators march all over the planet slowly sucking the life out of it .

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Shocking. I remember the Kean one in particular- fairly sure some Juventus official said it was 50/50??

Fairly sure Italian FA/Serie A have taken action against Cagliari before but I stand to be corrected.

I know they made Inter play a game behind closed doors and a game with the Curva shut at the start of 2019.

[Shtanley]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Shocking. I remember the Kean one in particular- fairly sure some Juventus official said it was 50/50??

Fairly sure Italian FA/Serie A have taken action against Cagliari before but I stand to be corrected.

I know they made Inter play a game behind closed doors and a game with the Curva shut at the start of 2019.

It was Bonucci, the captain.

There's only one person in Italian football who could actually change it, Ronaldo. 

If he piped up about it then Serie A would surely have to do something.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Shtanley said:

It was Bonucci, the captain.

There's only one person in Italian football who could actually change it, Ronaldo. 

If he piped up about it then Serie A would surely have to do something.

That's the one!

For some reason Cagliari seem to get away with it. Koulibaly racial abuse- Inter had to play Benevento in the Cup behind closed doors and Sassuolo in the League though it says some kids were allowed in as per some compromise in the 2nd.

[Carey 6]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Shocking. I remember the Kean one in particular- fairly sure some Juventus official said it was 50/50??

Fairly sure Italian FA/Serie A have taken action against Cagliari before but I stand to be corrected.

I know they made Inter play a game behind closed doors and a game with the Curva shut at the start of 2019.

Juve captain Bonucci did, said it was 50/50 as to where the blame lies 

[redsince1994]

5 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Sadly , there is a rise in ‘ Nationalism ‘ all over the world ,even in England.

The human race is going to Hell in a handcart. 

We have learned nothing from history and for all our intelligence we have not made this world a better place. 

The visions offered by Gandhi , Mandela and Jesus lie sullied in the gutter whilst dictators march all over the planet slowly sucking the life out of it .

 

Ghandi would have been more than happy with monkey noises at Lukaku. Much of his work was based on separating Africans and Indians.

[Super]

Not sure why any black player would play football in that country.

[reddogkev]

Racism will always exist I'm afraid, for some terrible reason, there is a deep-rooted human trait to hate those that are different.  Thankfully, only a small percentage of people have this deplorable trait, otherwise the world would be a war zone.

 

 

[NOTBLUE]

23 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Sadly , there is a rise in ‘ Nationalism ‘ all over the world ,even in England.

The human race is going to Hell in a handcart. 

We have learned nothing from history and for all our intelligence we have not made this world a better place. 

The visions offered by Gandhi , Mandela and Jesus lie sullied in the gutter whilst dictators march all over the planet slowly sucking the life out of it .

 

Some people mistake nationalism for patriotism,which it certainly isn’t.

[STeveOELlis]

44 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Sadly , there is a rise in ‘ Nationalism ‘ all over the world ,even in England.

The human race is going to Hell in a handcart. 

We have learned nothing from history and for all our intelligence we have not made this world a better place. 

The visions offered by Gandhi , Mandela and Jesus lie sullied in the gutter whilst dictators march all over the planet slowly sucking the life out of it .

 

Racism and nationalism are two completely separate things. Please, do not misconstrue this.  

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, redsince1994 said:

Ghandi would have been more than happy with monkey noises at Lukaku. Much of his work was based on separating Africans and Indians.

What nonsense.

His well documented use of derogatory names  applied to the criminals he encountered when locked up with them in prison in South Africa .

It must also be put into the context of the time that he lived in . 

His work was all about justice for all and  peaceful resistance to inequality.

He was the first to admit that he was no saint but I really can’t imagine The Mahatma chanting monkey noises at a black footballer in série A . 

 

[Major Isewater]

2 minutes ago, STeveOELlis said:

Racism and nationalism are two completely separate things. Please, do not misconstrue this.  

America first , **** the rest of you . Is that not Nationalism and racism ? 

Prejudice against anyone who is not American  ? 

Nationalism is just racism on a global scale not simply restricted to any one particular race .

That’s how I see it .

[STeveOELlis]

7 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

America first , **** the rest of you . Is that not Nationalism and racism ? 

Prejudice against anyone who is not American  ? 

Nationalism is just racism on a global scale not simply restricted to any one particular race .

That’s how I see it .

Anyone can rewrite their own definitions. Nationalism and racism are two separate things.

Anyway major, your original point is moot and irrelevant as Italian football has been this way for decades. Racism within Italian football is not on the rise, it has decreased, a lot.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, STeveOELlis said:

Anyone can rewrite their own definitions. Nationalism and racism are two separate things.

Anyway major, your original point is moot and irrelevant as Italian football has been this way for decades. Racism within Italian football is not on the rise, it has decreased, a lot.  

Putting racism aside for a minute, there are many different types of nationalism. Some of it them are benign and some of it certainly not.

[spudski]

It's not Italian football fans perse...but a reflection of Italian society. It can be said the same of a lot of Countries. 

Imo, we are by far the most tolerant nation on the planet. Racism is rife in most other countries. I've seen and heard it often.

 

[Unan]

It’s in our genes to protect ourselves from outsiders, survival instinct, we can condemn it but it’ll never truly go away. Not for a few million years or until some Silicon Valley founder cracks gene manipulation anyway.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Unan said:

It’s in our genes to protect ourselves from outsiders, survival instinct, we can condemn it but it’ll never truly go away. Not for a few million years or until some Silicon Valley founder cracks gene manipulation anyway.

You make a good point .

However , ‘ outsiders ‘ are only ‘ outsiders ‘ until they’re on the inside .

Once you recognise the individual in front of you and know their customs and habits the ‘ danger ‘ of the unknown is reduced.

 

[Judda]

8 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

You make a good point .

However , ‘ outsiders ‘ are only ‘ outsiders ‘ until they’re on the inside .

Once you recognise the individual in front of you and know their customs and habits the ‘ danger ‘ of the unknown is reduced.

 

Never knew you were so profound Major!

[Unan]

20 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

You make a good point .

However , ‘ outsiders ‘ are only ‘ outsiders ‘ until they’re on the inside .

Once you recognise the individual in front of you and know their customs and habits the ‘ danger ‘ of the unknown is reduced.

 

As far as I’m aware, we’re only capable of having up to roughly 100 ‘insiders’, when tribes grew above that rough threshold they’d split and become 2 groups, making more outsiders.

It’s the same reason we can only remember so many names & why we lack sympathy for people in horrible situations around the world.  We are only designed to protect our immediate group.

Of course, all technically theoretically as the human brain isn’t even close to being solved.

[maxjak]

3 hours ago, reddogkev said:

Racism will always exist I'm afraid, for some terrible reason, there is a deep-rooted human trait to hate those that are different.  Thankfully, only a small percentage of people have this deplorable trait, otherwise the world would be a war zone.

 

 

Not been in the Middle East recently then?

[CotswoldRed]

Why can't we just set aside an island and all racists can live there together is complete isolation. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

Sadly, the thread title should just be "The absolute state of Italy".

[OneCity]

Those who call nationalism racist are the same who would have Union Jacks banned in public for being 'offensive' to non-British people. Total BS. As said, do not confuse national pride, which is a thing, with nationalism, which is another thing, and racism which is yet another thing.

But of course there are those who call it all the same thing.  And it is these who often decide what is 'offensive' for everyone else.

Monkey-chanting is hideous. End of. But that said, the Inter statement requires some context. I somewhat understand where they're coming from. However they really should understand by now that their monkey-chanting supporters, even if they don't mean any racial offence, are nevertheless offensive to the person they're targeting. A sign of respect? Ridiculous. They don't seem to get that.

However, the reason I said 'I somewhat understand where they're coming from' is for this reason: 

How many people here, deploring and condemning this vile chant as I do, as we all do, did it themselves back in the 70s/80s?? Maybe a few actually did. Not calling anyone out at all, but it's worth thinking about. Because there was a time when yeh, the east end would erupt with monkey chants when a black player got the ball. It happened nationwide, across the leagues, stadium to stadium, every saturday without exception. Was it actual racial abuse, in the minds of each supporter doing it, in each and every case?

Here's an anecdote, which is what prompted me to write this post. I once took a black friend of mine, a West Ham supporter, to the derby versus the Rovers. He just wanted to come along and experience it. In that game, Rovers fielded a black player, let's say Devon White, don't recall who. Whenever he got the ball, particularly when shooting towards the east end - monkey-chants erupted in the east end. And guess what. My black friend joined in.  I nudged him and said, What the **** are you doing? He shrugged and replied, Trying to put him off aren't I?

Yes that really happened, and I felt very embarrassed by it. Personally I never did the monkey-chant, ever, and I was flummoxed that my black pal joined in.

Why? How?

Afterwards, we both put it down to a kind of 'mob rule'. It suggests that when a certain number start, more automatically join in. I think my black pal just wanted to 'fit in' with the crowd. Maybe he felt singled out as one black face among so many white, and wanted to look like and feel like one of the boys. An interesting take, isn't it? Because although this chant is taken as deeply racist, he didn't actually mean it as racist. I mean, how the hell could he, he's black himself! It would probably never happen today from a black spectator, not when everyone is being watched and judged for everything they do. Remember those were different days back then. A different consciousness existed. No social media, no repercussions, and nobody really cared what you did.

Back in those days, I'd suspect that a decent majority of the east end weren't racist either. Mob rule is/was thing, and played a big role in this. The supporters who did join in probably wouldn't monkey-chant a black person in the street for example! It’s purely an aspect of human behaviour when observed across large, complex systems. Riots work the same way. Thankfully in football the mob grew up. Evidently it's yet to do so in Italian football. But we should remember that in this light, the statement from Inter contains at least some validity – there ARE other facets to this phenomenon beyond just racism.

Racism in football is different now. It isn't the mob anymore in the UK, it's coming from a small albeit hateful minority. Which makes it more sinister. It's likely to be genuine racism in this case. But despite what the sensation-driven mainstream media gobshites say, it isn't at epidemic proportions though. A few twitter tw_a_ts are nothing compared to the tides of chanting, calling, swearing that filled the terraces and grandstands of yesteryear. Racism of course has by no means been eradicated from football in the UK. Not at all. But it's a LOT better than it was.

Whatever the case, and sorry for the long-windedness, monkey-chanting must be stamped out. Whatever skewed human psychology is behind it, whether that is racist or not, monkey-chanting is received by the players as a racist slur, always - and their feelings are paramount. It's time for Italian football to get it's house in order.

 

[Dan Robin]

Luckily Curva Nord is not representative of Inter's fanbase: they have their own code, like other Curve, and doing some ''chants'' is normal for some of their members.

That being said, the problem about racism is social & educational...and unfortunately many people - in Italy and elsewhere - have these medieval ideas. There are many dark aspetcs in Italian football, but this one IMO has little to do with it, and I guess that introducing stricter rules would not change things: it could damage the club, ban more guilty supporters, but sadly there will be other episodes.

[spudski]

It's Ironic when you look at the Club Crest of Cagliari.

[Red-Robbo]

I love Italy, but there's no more racist country in Western Europe.

It's the only place still where you can talk to some well-educated seemingly cultured person and have them tell you: "The trouble with London is there's too many blacks."

[Maesknoll Red]

4 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I love Italy, but there's no more racist country in Western Europe.

It's the only place still where you can talk to some well-educated seemingly cultured person and have them tell you: "The trouble with London is there's too many blacks."

I’d disagree with that, I’ve heard it from Germans and definitely from people in this country who live ‘in the sticks’.  

[hantsred]

6 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I’d disagree with that, I’ve heard it from Germans and definitely from people in this country who live ‘in the sticks’.  

you mean this guy

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I’d disagree with that, I’ve heard it from Germans and definitely from people in this country who live ‘in the sticks’.  

I used to have a holiday share in Umbria, MR. Went there multiple times every year. 

Italy's the only place I've seen bus drivers simply drive past bus stops if black people are waiting there.

A (now deceased) mate of mine was half Nigerian/half-Bajan but married to an Italian girl. He saw it there too.

People like Matteo Salvini (foreign minister until recently) make Nigel Farage look like Owen Jones.  The football culture there reflects that. I used to drink in an "Irish pub" in Perugia that was a Lazio supporters hang-out. The Lazio boys made most Millwall supporters seem like social workers.

Italy is a wonderful country and I love it, but it's years behind the curve in racial integration.

Probably ahead of all of Eastern Europe though 

[AshtonPark]

8 minutes ago, hantsred said:

you mean this guy

I'm not backing up for John Cleese, but what he would have classed as an English London now isnt the same as what he was when he was growing up. To him i doubt it does feel english anymore.

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

I'm not backing up for John Cleese, but what he would have classed as an English London now isnt the same as what he was when he was growing up. To him i doubt it does feel english anymore.

I feel a similar sense of loss in that he used to be funny when I was younger and now he just isn't.

[189thoughts]

4 hours ago, STeveOELlis said:

Anyone can rewrite their own definitions. Nationalism and racism are two separate things.

Anyway major, your original point is moot and irrelevant as Italian football has been this way for decades. Racism within Italian football is not on the rise, it has decreased, a lot.  

Nationalism breeds racism.

[EmissionImpossible]

7 minutes ago, Redwhitepurple said:

Martin luther king was as much a racist to whites as kkk are to blacks

What utter shit.

[Fjmcity]

38 minutes ago, Neutral said:

Nationalism breeds racism.

the two are absolutely intertwined 

[ZiderEyed]

15 minutes ago, Redwhitepurple said:

Sadly!?!?! What a stupid comment. Nationalism, you know the one, Being proud of your country and history of it and beliefs of it, is a bad thing to you. Weird?

I think my country is responsible for a huge amount of evil. Are you able to admit the horrendous things Britain has done in the name of empire? Being proud of where you're from is one thing, being blinkered is another. 

Secondly, what are the "beliefs" of Britain?

[Fjmcity]

44 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

I'm not backing up for John Cleese, but what he would have classed as an English London now isnt the same as what he was when he was growing up. To him i doubt it does feel english anymore.

It’s code for too many brown people, simple as and is unacceptable 

[bristolcitysweden]

 

[bristolcitysweden]

1 hour ago, hantsred said:

you mean this guy

We are very reluctant to stay in London as it is not the England we know since the seventees

[Pezo]

1 hour ago, ZiderEyed said:

I think my country is responsible for a huge amount of evil. Are you able to admit the horrendous things Britain has done in the name of empire? Being proud of where you're from is one thing, being blinkered is another. 

Secondly, what are the "beliefs" of Britain?

You know that empire did a great deal of good as well? 

[Malago]

No all nationalists are racists, but all racists are nationalists.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Neutral said:

Nationalism breeds racism.

 

2 hours ago, Redwhitepurple said:

Sadly!?!?! What a stupid comment. Nationalism, you know the one, Being proud of your country and history of it and beliefs of it, is a bad thing to you. Weird?

 

26 minutes ago, Malago said:

No all nationalists are racists, but all racists are nationalists.

You realise not all nationalism is good, not all is bad?

Definitely there are dangerous types of nationalism though, but not all types are. By the same token, certain types and elements of nationalism are very dangerous or risky.

[Major Isewater]

Can I just say that I love OTIB ? 

You guys are amazing. 

Is there any other football forum where the character of Gandhi could be discussed or the merits of the British Empire ( all on the same thread) 

[Unan]

11 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Can I just say that I love OTIB ? 

You guys are amazing. 

Is there any other football forum where the character of Gandhi could be discussed or the merits of the British Empire ( all on the same thread) 

Anthropological theological historical political sports thread, classic OTIB

[Chairman Mao]

2 hours ago, bristolcitysweden said:

We are very reluctant to stay in London as it is not the England we know since the seventees

Thank god for that. Back them it was a bombed out hell hole with soggy chips and miky tea, a drab grey air and declining population. Not saying it is perfect today, far from it, but the change is not a bad thing in many respects. 

Racism and nationalism do sometimes go hand in hand. Not always, but it is often easy to define 'them vs. us' through the context of the nation state and its borders. This is something that has happened throughout history, especially in Europe between 1850-1945.

Great thread btw, some really good debate. 

[big dosser]

british by birth

English by the grace of god

forest of dean because of me mother

[Bristol Oil Services]

20 minutes ago, forestofdean said:

british by birth

English by the grace of god

forest of dean because of me mother

Which bit of the Forest, though? 

[big dosser]

where the deer say good morning and the wild boar

7 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Which bit of the Forest, though? 

say goodnight

[David Brent]

Inter fans: “I’m not racist but...”

Classic racism

 

[CotswoldRed]

7 hours ago, OneCity said:

Those who call nationalism racist are the same who would have Union Jacks banned in public for being 'offensive' to non-British people. Total BS. As said, do not confuse national pride, which is a thing, with nationalism, which is another thing, and racism which is yet another thing.

But of course there are those who call it all the same thing.  And it is these who often decide what is 'offensive' for everyone else.

Monkey-chanting is hideous. End of. But that said, the Inter statement requires some context. I somewhat understand where they're coming from. However they really should understand by now that their monkey-chanting supporters, even if they don't mean any racial offence, are nevertheless offensive to the person they're targeting. A sign of respect? Ridiculous. They don't seem to get that.

However, the reason I said 'I somewhat understand where they're coming from' is for this reason: 

How many people here, deploring and condemning this vile chant as I do, as we all do, did it themselves back in the 70s/80s?? Maybe a few actually did. Not calling anyone out at all, but it's worth thinking about. Because there was a time when yeh, the east end would erupt with monkey chants when a black player got the ball. It happened nationwide, across the leagues, stadium to stadium, every saturday without exception. Was it actual racial abuse, in the minds of each supporter doing it, in each and every case?

Here's an anecdote, which is what prompted me to write this post. I once took a black friend of mine, a West Ham supporter, to the derby versus the Rovers. He just wanted to come along and experience it. In that game, Rovers fielded a black player, let's say Devon White, don't recall who. Whenever he got the ball, particularly when shooting towards the east end - monkey-chants erupted in the east end. And guess what. My black friend joined in.  I nudged him and said, What the **** are you doing? He shrugged and replied, Trying to put him off aren't I?

Yes that really happened, and I felt very embarrassed by it. Personally I never did the monkey-chant, ever, and I was flummoxed that my black pal joined in.

Why? How?

Afterwards, we both put it down to a kind of 'mob rule'. It suggests that when a certain number start, more automatically join in. I think my black pal just wanted to 'fit in' with the crowd. Maybe he felt singled out as one black face among so many white, and wanted to look like and feel like one of the boys. An interesting take, isn't it? Because although this chant is taken as deeply racist, he didn't actually mean it as racist. I mean, how the hell could he, he's black himself! It would probably never happen today from a black spectator, not when everyone is being watched and judged for everything they do. Remember those were different days back then. A different consciousness existed. No social media, no repercussions, and nobody really cared what you did.

Back in those days, I'd suspect that a decent majority of the east end weren't racist either. Mob rule is/was thing, and played a big role in this. The supporters who did join in probably wouldn't monkey-chant a black person in the street for example! It’s purely an aspect of human behaviour when observed across large, complex systems. Riots work the same way. Thankfully in football the mob grew up. Evidently it's yet to do so in Italian football. But we should remember that in this light, the statement from Inter contains at least some validity – there ARE other facets to this phenomenon beyond just racism.

Racism in football is different now. It isn't the mob anymore in the UK, it's coming from a small albeit hateful minority. Which makes it more sinister. It's likely to be genuine racism in this case. But despite what the sensation-driven mainstream media gobshites say, it isn't at epidemic proportions though. A few twitter tw_a_ts are nothing compared to the tides of chanting, calling, swearing that filled the terraces and grandstands of yesteryear. Racism of course has by no means been eradicated from football in the UK. Not at all. But it's a LOT better than it was.

Whatever the case, and sorry for the long-windedness, monkey-chanting must be stamped out. Whatever skewed human psychology is behind it, whether that is racist or not, monkey-chanting is received by the players as a racist slur, always - and their feelings are paramount. It's time for Italian football to get it's house in order.

 

Great post. 

Along the same lines, it's only about 10/12 years ago I remember the whole of the East End singing with gusto "small town in Asia" to the Leicester fans. 

Now, a large proportion of posters on here were there that day. Are they all racists?...... 

[CotswoldRed]

2 hours ago, Chairman Mao said:

Thank god for that. Back them it was a bombed out hell hole with soggy chips and miky tea, a drab grey air and declining population. Not saying it is perfect today, far from it, but the change is not a bad thing in many respects. 

Racism and nationalism do sometimes go hand in hand. Not always, but it is often easy to define 'them vs. us' through the context of the nation state and its borders. This is something that has happened throughout history, especially in Europe between 1850-1945.

Great thread btw, some really good debate. 

This is a fair point, but most of Britain has lost its historical and cultural ways and traditions in such a short space of time. 

The easiest way I can sum it up is to offer a comparison. What I love about going to areas of France, Italy and Spain is the very clear traditions and culture that is their normal way of life. That's what makes them uniquely appealing and the very reason I go there.

If, in a few decades, small Spanish towns have lost their "Spanishness" there'd be little point in me going there. So much is lost if a place becomes a melting pot. Its just plain obvious. A place's culture and history is every bit about its people. Of course, the places I'm talking about have changed over the years, but not nearly as fast as what's happened here. 

Think about the wonderful places across the world you might have visited. A key reason for your enjoyment was probably the authentic way of life you experienced. Is that worth protecting? 

[AshtonGreat]

12 hours ago, redsince1994 said:

Ghandi would have been more than happy with monkey noises at Lukaku. Much of his work was based on separating Africans and Indians.

Ghandi - there's 3 hours I'll never get back...

[EmissionImpossible]

13 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

Great post. 

Along the same lines, it's only about 10/12 years ago I remember the whole of the East End singing with gusto "small town in Asia" to the Leicester fans. 

Now, a large proportion of posters on here were there that day. Are they all racists?...... 

Well ...yeah. Or at least they were that day.

[Red-Robbo]

12 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

This is a fair point, but most of Britain has lost its historical and cultural ways and traditions in such a short space of time. 

The easiest way I can sum it up is to offer a comparison. What I love about going to areas of France, Italy and Spain is the very clear traditions and culture that is their normal way of life. That's what makes them uniquely appealing and the very reason I go there.

If, in a few decades, small Spanish towns have lost their "Spanishness" there'd be little point in me going there. So much is lost if a place becomes a melting pot. Its just plain obvious. A place's culture and history is every bit about its people. Of course, the places I'm talking about have changed over the years, but not nearly as fast as what's happened here. 

Think about the wonderful places across the world you might have visited. A key reason for your enjoyment was probably the authentic way of life you experienced. Is that worth protecting? 

Culture isn't static. It invents itself as time goes on.

Take great British staple Fish & chips. Brought to Victorian London by Sephardic Jews. A mongrelised version of the Matzah fish that Jews have enjoyed for centuries.

More recently, curry has become something of a national cuisine. The stuff most "Indian" restaurants sell is an Anglicised version of Bangladeshi food. 

We've always been a melting pot - and been stronger for it.

Even the great British pub is something that spread nationwide with the 19th Century Irish diaspora. If you read about what taverns were like before then, they had little we would recognise as a modern 'pub'.

 

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

Culture isn't static. It invents itself as time goes on.

Take great British staple Fish & chips. Brought to Victorian London by Sephardic Jews. A mongrelised version of the Matzah fish that Jews have enjoyed for centuries.

More recently, curry has become something of a national cuisine. The stuff most "Indian" restaurants sell is an Anglicised version of Bangladeshi food. 

We've always been a melting pot - and been stronger for it.

Even the great British pub is something that spread nationwide with the 19th Century Irish diaspora. If you read about what taverns were like before then, they had little we would recognise as a modern 'pub'.

 

Interesting, if you are correct: I had always understood that 'fish and chips' had its origins in Portugal.

No doubt @Olé or @Porto Red, or even @cidered abroad, might be able to advise. 

[Porto Red]

30 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Interesting, if you are correct: I had always understood that 'fish and chips' had its origins in Portugal.

No doubt @Olé or @Porto Red, or even @cidered abroad, might be able to advise. 

Don't know about that Phil, I've never heard that. Bacalhau, salted cod, is a well known and very traditional dish here and can be had battered, but would more likely be served with boiled potatoes rather than chips, which are a more recent addition to the cuisine (although commonly served with meat). 

On the other hand, Catherine of Bragança, wife of Charles II, was responsible for introducing tea to the British isles.

[Red-Robbo]

49 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Interesting, if you are correct: I had always understood that 'fish and chips' had its origins in Portugal.

No doubt @Olé or @Porto Red, or even @cidered abroad, might be able to advise. 

Sephardic Jews are the Jews who originally lived in Portugal and Spain, but were expelled during the counter-reformation, so we could both be right, Phil. 

[PHILINFRANCE]

10 minutes ago, Porto Red said:

Don't know about that Phil, I've never heard that. Bacalhau, salted cod, is a well known and very traditional dish here and can be had battered, but would more likely be served with boiled potatoes rather than chips, which are a more recent addition to the cuisine (although commonly served with meat). 

On the other hand, Catherine of Bragança, wife of Charles II, was responsible for introducing tea to the British isles.

Salted cod, or 'Morue' as it is known here, is quite popular in France, but I don't recall seeing it battered: it is often served (desalted!) as a fish and mashed potato pie (with lots of garlic and olive oil), known as 'Brandade - and very nice it is too.

[Major Isewater]

7 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Salted cod, or 'Morue' as it is known here, is quite popular in France, but I don't recall seeing it battered: it is often served (desalted!) as a fish and mashed potato pie (with lots of garlic and olive oil), known as 'Brandade - and very nice it is too.

A speciality from Nimes.

The town incidentally where the word ‘ Denim ‘ comes from .

The cotton cloth arriving in the United States was imprinted ‘ De Nimes ‘ which means ‘ from Nimes ‘ .

 

[elhombrecito]

13 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

 it is often served (desalted!) as a fish and mashed potato pie (with lots of garlic and olive oil), known as 'Brandade - and very nice it is too.

Sounds delicious 

[PHILINFRANCE]

22 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

A speciality from Nimes.

Indeed, although I understand it originated some 50km up the road in Ales.

I only know this because, several years ago, I was invited by a client to lunch in quite a nice French restaurant in Ales.

Spotting 'Brandade de Morue' on the menu, I commented (ignorantly ) on how interesting it was to see a Portuguese dish in this typically French restaurant! 

My host laughed and then regaled me with the history of the dish and how it was created centuries ago (in Ales) for the Atlantic fisherman who traded their salted cod for the local salt: my client stressed that the traditional brandade from Ales should not be confused with the inferior version from Nimes, which used a cod purée rather than proper chunks of fish.  

[OneCity]

I don’t know about his politics, I don’t follow him, I was just sent the link by a relation living in London and thought it was an eye-opener – accurate or not I don’t know. You tell me.

[Major Isewater]

30 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Indeed, although I understand it originated some 50km up the road in Ales.

I only know this because, several years ago, I was invited by a client to lunch in quite a nice French restaurant in Ales.

Spotting 'Brandade de Morue' on the menu, I commented (ignorantly ) on how interesting it was to see a Portuguese dish in this typically French restaurant! 

My host laughed and then regaled me with the history of the dish and how it was created centuries ago (in Ales) for the Atlantic fisherman who traded their salted cod for the local salt: my client stressed that the traditional brandade from Ales should not be confused with the inferior version from Nimes, which used a cod purée rather than proper chunks of fish.  

À fishy tale.

[bredwood]

27 minutes ago, OneCity said:

I don’t know about his politics, I don’t follow him, I was just sent the link by a relation living in London and thought it was an eye-opener – accurate or not I don’t know. You tell me.

 

Of course it's not correct. The guy is a member of UKIP and what he says is twisted to meet his political agenda.

London has it's problems particularly in the level of knife crime but that is due to a multitude of reasons. One of them is the level of demand for class A drugs from the political classes who then condemn the violence that results from the gangs that supply them trying to maintain and expand their customer base.

[steveybadger]

Anyone just see an Italian fan do a ‘’Roman’’ I.e fascist salute during the national anthem v Armenia? A la Di Canio.

Just another day fighting racism....

[Red-Robbo]

41 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Anyone just see an Italian fan do a ‘’Roman’’ I.e fascist salute during the national anthem v Armenia? A la Di Canio.

Just another day fighting racism....

You think they'd try and forget about the Mussolini era, wouldn't you?

Particularly as they made such a pig's ear of everything during it.

Apparently the trains didn't even run on time.