Kasey Palmer

[cidercity1987]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

 

With all the weaknesses in his game, it's pointless having him in the team if his strengths are nullified by lack of correct movement and vision around him.

Afobe was perfect for him and Palmer excelled with his movement and understanding. Palmer's confidence grew.

Occasionally it has worked with other players...but it's way too inconsistent.

I really feel for Palmer. He needs lots of correct movement and vision around him. At the moment we have very little of it. For every great striker...you need a Palmer to supply you that pass, to make you that great striker. But to be a great striker...you also need great vision and correct movement. Right now, we don't have that.

Our strikers fail...our Midfield contribution into creating good goal scoring opportunities fails. It's a catch 22.

I fully understand when LJ implies, that if we play either Eliasson or Palmer, that we'll have to score say 3 goals because it's like giving the opposition a 2 goal headstart.

I've done the research re Eliasson based on empirical evidence of the last 24 games.

Without Eliasson 18 goals conceded in 1179 minutes, one every 66 minutes.

With Eliasson 18 goals conceded in 981 minutes, one every 55 minutes.

So you are correct in one sense if we disregard the fact we are generally chasing a game and playing openly anyway when he comes on.

HOWEVER 

Without Eliasson 15 goals scored in 1179

minutes and NONE since Cardiff

With Eliasson 21 goals scored in 981 minutes.

So we concede marginally more and score a hell of a lot more with Eliasson.

ITS A SCANDAL

[marcofisher]

4 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

I've done the research re Eliasson based on empirical evidence of the last 24 games.

Without Eliasson 18 goals conceded in 1179 minutes, one every 66 minutes.

With Eliasson 18 goals conceded in 981 minutes, one every 55 minutes.

So you are correct in one sense if we disregard the fact we are generally chasing a game and playing openly anyway when he comes on.

HOWEVER 

Without Eliasson 15 goals scored in 1179

minutes and NONE since Cardiff

With Eliasson 21 goals scored in 981 minutes.

So we concede marginally more and score a hell of a lot more with Eliasson.

ITS A SCANDAL

[spudski]

28 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

I've done the research re Eliasson based on empirical evidence of the last 24 games.

Without Eliasson 18 goals conceded in 1179 minutes, one every 66 minutes.

With Eliasson 18 goals conceded in 981 minutes, one every 55 minutes.

So you are correct in one sense if we disregard the fact we are generally chasing a game and playing openly anyway when he comes on.

HOWEVER 

Without Eliasson 15 goals scored in 1179

minutes and NONE since Cardiff

With Eliasson 21 goals scored in 981 minutes.

So we concede marginally more and score a hell of a lot more with Eliasson.

ITS A SCANDAL

You are correct...we do create more chances with Eliasson playing.

But as you also point out, him playing, as well as others, creates other problems on the pitch.

It's finding the right balance. And that is our problem.

Look at Leeds fans all wanting Nketiah to play over Bamford. But as Bielsa rightly points out...Bamford's overall game gives more positives. Where as playing Nketiah unbalances his side.

For sure we'll create more passes into the box with Palmer and Eliasson playing...but we'll also be massively open defensively when not with the ball.

Imo Palmer and Eliasson would fare better without Famara in the team. His movement negates their positives.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Olé said:

Forget to judge on performances? 

Perhaps "fans" have a better memory for the fact Palmer was outstanding at Preston without Afobe (him and Daniel Johnson ran the two midfields), setup the winner in minutes against Charlton without Afobe too, and was a small part of our winner at Cardiff without Afobe where he looked very comfortable and had more quality than most to see out the game (and infuriate home fans).

I think all too often "other fans" see only a few bad performances when we're on TV (at West Brom where 7 players sat back and our performance was a shambles, or Hillsborough last week), or off the bench at Ashton Gate (defending a lead against a good Reading side that pressed us second half) and come out with wild generalisations that other players seem to get away without.

Palmer was consistently among our best players and certainly our most influential at the start of the season (at Birmingham, at Derby, at home to QPR, at home to Boro, and at Preston as I said). He's the one player that offers something we simply have no alternative for in the squad, and which we desperately need - vision and creativity. With a run in the team he was POTS material.

Yes he was hopeless in the games I've highlighted above (plus was poor but no more than the team as a whole at Brentford and Luton), and he may well be the easiest scapegoat for Lee Johnson (the evidence of his pattern of selection tells us that), but don't do him the disservice of talking about performances when you have a selective memory to generalise from a handful of them.

If we send him to Swansea it will be a disgrace and reflect most poorly on the coaches who signed him and yet now apparently are suggesting they don't know what to do with him. And this Afobe dependency is one of the laziest narratives this season.

I dislike the narrative that as soon as a player someone doesn’t like on here has a poor game, it’s “see, he’s shit”, rarely any context to the rest of the team performance, so thanks for saying that in some games, others were equally as bad.  It’s the scapegoat syndrome on here.  It’s easy to look at the mistakes, like getting caught in possession, but ignore trying to find the root cause.  I accept Palmer hasn’t hit his earlier season heights, but he hasn’t been given much chance either.  Derby / Brum away he excelled because a combination of Brownhill (both games), Nagy and Massengo (one each), got the ball to him early.  He got back into defensive shape early, mainly LCM and I never have seen him not working hard.  As Spud says he’s not always disciplined defensively, but it isn’t lack of effort.

58 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Palmer and Diedhiou are incompatible imo. Palmer was outstanding when we were playing Weimann and Afobe. Even when it was Semenyo and Weimann he was very good. 
 

 

Thought the same both Preston and Brentford away.

[BRISTOL86]

4 hours ago, Olé said:

Forget to judge on performances? 

Perhaps "fans" have a better memory for the fact Palmer was outstanding at Preston without Afobe (him and Daniel Johnson ran the two midfields), setup the winner in minutes against Charlton without Afobe too, and was a small part of our winner at Cardiff without Afobe where he looked very comfortable and had more quality than most to see out the game (and infuriate home fans).

I think all too often "other fans" see only a few bad performances when we're on TV (at West Brom where 7 players sat back and our performance was a shambles, or Hillsborough last week), or off the bench at Ashton Gate (defending a lead against a good Reading side that pressed us second half) and come out with wild generalisations that other players seem to get away without.

Palmer was consistently among our best players and certainly our most influential at the start of the season (at Birmingham, at Derby, at home to QPR, at home to Boro, and at Preston as I said). He's the one player that offers something we simply have no alternative for in the squad, and which we desperately need - vision and creativity. With a run in the team he was POTS material.

Yes he was hopeless in the games I've highlighted above (plus was poor but no more than the team as a whole at Brentford and Luton), and he may well be the easiest scapegoat for Lee Johnson (the evidence of his pattern of selection tells us that), but don't do him the disservice of talking about performances when you have a selective memory to generalise from a handful of them.

If we send him to Swansea it will be a disgrace and reflect most poorly on the coaches who signed him and yet now apparently are suggesting they don't know what to do with him. And this Afobe dependency is one of the laziest narratives this season.

Assists

Goals 

Key passes per game

Successful dribbles per game

Passing success

Completed passes

Just a handful of statistics where Kasey Palmer is outside the 50 top performing players in the championship. Some of them not even in the top 100. I appreciate he's not had a lot of full games but it still doesn't paint a pretty picture.

Your selectively quoting a handful of good moments is no different to my point arguing the opposite. 

I have nothing against Palmer, but the stats don't lie, he's absolutely miles off the best performing in a similar role in the league this season from what we've seen so far, and I don't think it's at all lazy to say that the best we've seen of him is when Afobe was in the side. 

Of course it doesn't help that for much of the season we've played a system without a number 10, but don't pretend that recalling a handful of good moments is any different to the bad ones, of which there's been just as many. 

For the record I think he's a decent player who is being stifled by our tactics and setup, like many of our more creative attacking players are. I don't understand why we spent big money on him only to use a system that doesn't have a number 10, but that's one for Ashton and Johnson to explain....

Big question marks about our recruitment for me. I don't know if it was a panic buy or what but questions need asking.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, marcofisher said:

Enough already with these Iain Dowie memes .

[Major Isewater]

12 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Assists

Goals 

Key passes per game

Successful dribbles per game

Passing success

Completed passes

Just a handful of statistics where Kasey Palmer is outside the 50 top performing players in the championship. Some of them not even in the top 100. I appreciate he's not had a lot of full games but it still doesn't paint a pretty picture.

Your selectively quoting a handful of good moments is no different to my point arguing the opposite. 

I have nothing against Palmer, but the stats don't lie, he's absolutely miles off the best performing in a similar role in the league this season from what we've seen so far, and I don't think it's at all lazy to say that the best we've seen of him is when Afobe was in the side. 

Of course it doesn't help that for much of the season we've played a system without a number 10, but don't pretend that recalling a handful of good moments is any different to the bad ones, of which there's been just as many. 

For the record I think he's a decent player who is being stifled by our tactics and setup, like many of our more creative attacking players are. I don't understand why we spent big money on him only to use a system that doesn't have a number 10, but that's one for Ashton and Johnson to explain....

Big question marks about our recruitment for me. I don't know if it was a panic buy or what but questions need asking.

It’s all about ‘ horses for courses ‘ you wouldn’t expect Usain Bolt to win a marathon and yet he is the fastest man in the world ( after me when I have to do the shopping near to kick off time ) . 

[BRISTOL86]

9 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

It’s all about ‘ horses for courses ‘ you wouldn’t expect Usain Bolt to win a marathon and yet he is the fastest man in the world ( after me when I have to do the shopping near to kick off time ) . 

No but you do expect a number ten to be creating chances and assisting goals. 

I really have nothing against Palmer but none of our attacking players are delivering much. And a lot of that comes down to the negative tactics and dull, pedestrian brand of ‘football’ we play rather than the individuals. 

It will be baffling to me to see Palmer loaned to a rival so soon after signing him for big money. 

[Natchfever]

17 hours ago, Bobby Bollax said:

A lot of excuses on here for a player that struggles to pass the ball 5 yards to another player, I suppose thats our coaches fault on Otib...

Dunno why the club signed him to be honest. In and out whilst on loan so unsure what the attraction was. 

[BRISTOL86]

Not even in the squad. Guess that tells us what we need to know about the Swansea rumours. 

[Fordy62]

3 hours ago, petehinton said:

LJ saying that starting Eliasson or Palmer is like giving the opposition a 2 goal head start is absolute ******* madness. Can’t believe he said it. What a confidence boost to them. And also what a load of crap.  

Please tell me he didn’t say that?

[Agard Days Night]

Oh dear oh dear. Not even on the bench today. Bye Kasey.

[AshtonGreat]

3 hours ago, petehinton said:

LJ saying that starting Eliasson or Palmer is like giving the opposition a 2 goal head start is absolute ******* madness. Can’t believe he said it. What a confidence boost to them. And also what a load of crap.  

Having Johnson as manager is like giving teams a two goal headstart

[Major Isewater]

I have gone on record as saying that Palmer is one of those players that the club should be building the team around . 
 

If we are tight for budget and we are stuck with Paterson coming back then there might be some logic in loaning out KP. 
 

He can hopefully get game time and either come back to City with confidence or , sadly more than likely, put himself in the shop window for a summer transfer.

I am really disappointed that the coaching staff have not got the most out of this lad .

 

[Henry]

Did any of the press actually ask LJ about Palmer today?

[Highguy]

 

8 minutes ago, Henry said:

Did any of the press actually ask LJ about Palmer today?

No doubt repeat what he said last 3 times he doesnt want to pick him

[Numero Uno]

9 minutes ago, Henry said:

Did any of the press actually ask LJ about Palmer today?

Yeah, Johnson basically said Palmer dropped because he hasn’t played well enough. Also said he will get games soon and he doesn’t expect him to be leaving in January.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

Yeah, Johnson basically said Palmer dropped because he hasn’t played well enough. Also said he will get games soon and he doesn’t expect him to be leaving in January.

Yep, exactly that.

[Numero Uno]

5 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

I have gone on record as saying that Palmer is one of those players that the club should be building the team around . 
 

If we are tight for budget and we are stuck with Paterson coming back then there might be some logic in loaning out KP. 
 

He can hopefully get game time and either come back to City with confidence or , sadly more than likely, put himself in the shop window for a summer transfer.

I am really disappointed that the coaching staff have not got the most out of this lad .

 

Agree to a point but let’s not forget that the lad himself also carries a degree of responsibility for getting the most out of himself. He’s probably on £15-20k a week so the least he can do is run around a bit and look keen and interested.

[ScottishRed]

The other consideration in this is that Swansea are skint, can they afford a significant loan fee plus Kasey’s wages? Probably not.

All that aside I will be hugely disappointed if he went, we need to get a forward or two that is on his wavelength, not loan him out.

[Galway Red]

2 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

The other consideration in this is that Swansea are skint, can they afford a significant loan fee plus Kasey’s wages? Probably not.

All that aside I will be hugely disappointed if he went, we need to get a forward or two that is on his wavelength, not loan him out.

Swansea can't afford anyone else while they are paying their star player 80 grand a week 

[Dr Balls]

Swansea were after Kasey Palmer in the summer and thought it was a done deal. The fact that LJ can’t seem to work out how to play him into the team is in part the player’s fault but also that of the coaches. He is the kind of player who can make things happen but you would have to build a team around him to make that happen. Unfortunately that isn’t going to happen as it appears that LJ doesn’t have the confidence in him to do that.

Hoeever there is a bigger issue here with LJ and flair players. He doesn’t really know how to handle them, but then neither did his dad, who bought Trundle but didn’t really know what to do with him. These players sometimes need a bit more patience and attention from coaches but if handled correctly can reward them many times over. They are not just a luxury, they are a luxury that you need to be able to make work for you.

LJ prefers industrious players, who work hard, but have little or no end product I.e. similar to himself as a player. However work rate only gets any team so far and the best teams ally that to skill. He finally seems to have seen the light with Eliasson but I think Kasey is in for a frustrating season.

[walsh left foot]

Why are people suprised about Palmer possibly leaving, there is a good player there but he will always be a luxury player for us. When Palmer has a bad game which in my optics more often than not we do not have players that are good enough to pick up the pieces. With better players around him he would flourish but we currently do not have those players. It’s a shame but we have seen it with past players I.e Tomlin jet sno etc. Not good enough for the prem and to much of a risk for us. In my opinion.

[Major Isewater]

11 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Agree to a point but let’s not forget that the lad himself also carries a degree of responsibility for getting the most out of himself. He’s probably on £15-20k a week so the least he can do is run around a bit and look keen and interested.

I would say he has often looked a bit ‘ lost ‘ because he’s not been sure where to play .

One of the reasons why I believe players in his position need regular starts to be effective.

It’s like throwing in a conductor of an orchestra when he doesn’t know the music to be played or the musicians. 
 

I can’t say that I see a ‘ lazy ‘ player with KP. 
 

 

[Roe]

6 minutes ago, Lucan said:

Palmer has done nothing to suggest City should be building a team around him.

This isn't really true though.  He has the 2nd highest assists per minute ratio in the team behind Eliasson.

I agree he hasn't been good enough lately but it's not fair to suggest that he's done nothing this season (or last, when he was constantly changing games as an impact sub).

[Gilli74]

Palmer is one of the most forward thinking players we’ve had ... his first thought is always to move the the ball forward.. so when he looks up and Fammy and Weimann are on their heels deep with backs to goals not attempting to make a run behind, he then has no option ... and gets caught .. it’s no surprise his best spell this season was when Afobe was playing who was an intelligent striker making these runs in behind for Palmer ... 

[Phileas Fogg]

He seems to fall into that JET/Tomlin/Noble/Trundle category of a highly talented player who can show flashes of brilliance.. but the the trade off is a requirement to build the entire team around him. I don't think we're quite good enough at this level to manage that. Madness to let him leave though, he can play a big part before the end of the season.

[spudski]

10 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

Swansea were after Kasey Palmer in the summer and thought it was a done deal. The fact that LJ can’t seem to work out how to play him into the team is in part the player’s fault but also that of the coaches. He is the kind of player who can make things happen but you would have to build a team around him to make that happen. Unfortunately that isn’t going to happen as it appears that LJ doesn’t have the confidence in him to do that.

Hoeever there is a bigger issue here with LJ and flair players. He doesn’t really know how to handle them, but then neither did his dad, who bought Trundle but didn’t really know what to do with him. These players sometimes need a bit more patience and attention from coaches but if handled correctly can reward them many times over. They are not just a luxury, they are a luxury that you need to be able to make work for you.

LJ prefers industrious players, who work hard, but have little or no end product I.e. similar to himself as a player. However work rate only gets any team so far and the best teams ally that to skill. He finally seems to have seen the light with Eliasson but I think Kasey is in for a frustrating season.

It's worth going back to interviews with KP when he signed for us.

He is quoted as saying he feels most comfortable here, it feels homely, has made good friends and that his family also like it and feel settled here.

He is also quoted as saying he came because he thought LJ could develop his all round game. He says he knows he can do more defensively and that he has struggled with fitness...hence all the extra training in the summer and now.

LJ wanted a flair player, to make that pass...but knows, as does KP that he needs to improve his overall game to be considered.

The system we play has nothing to do with KPs performances...most of his bad performances are down to individual error... mostly giving the ball away, and concentration. Not LJs fault.

It doesn't help when your main striker doesn't move for you...unlike Afobe. 

Unfortunately...you just can't carry flair players with no all round game ability anymore.

[ScottishRed]

5 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

He seems to fall into that JET/Tomlin/Noble/Trundle category of a highly talented player who can show flashes of brilliance.. but the the trade off is a requirement to build the entire team around him. I don't think we're quite good enough at this level to manage that. Madness to let him leave though, he can play a big part before the end of the season.

I would find it a worrying statement of intent if he was allowed to leave. My thoughts were that we would be looking to bring in a striker or two that would have a style that suited his strengths rather than let him go.

It seems madness given that we forked out between £3.5 - 4m only 4 months ago!

Are we going to be changing style again and going to hoofball - is this the strategy for the rest of the season - I sincerely hope not.

I am someone who wants to get to the PL as soon as possible ( I totally get why others feel differently) but PL football would be very exciting and give SL sustainability instantly, if managed properly.

I was very pleased that we won yesterday but lets be honest, the team we fielded won't beat too many in this league, we need to be more creative and have more guile, I was surprised that Kasey was not at least on the bench which might indicate that the Swansea rumour has some legs.  

[ScottishRed]

5 minutes ago, spudski said:

It's worth going back to interviews with KP when he signed for us.

He is quoted as saying he feels most comfortable here, it feels homely, has made good friends and that his family also like it and feel settled here.

He is also quoted as saying he came because he thought LJ could develop his all round game. He says he knows he can do more defensively and that he has struggled with fitness...hence all the extra training in the summer and now.

LJ wanted a flair player, to make that pass...but knows, as does KP that he needs to improve his overall game to be considered.

The system we play has nothing to do with KPs performances...most of his bad performances are down to individual error... mostly giving the ball away, and concentration. Not LJs fault.

It doesn't help when your main striker doesn't move for you...unlike Afobe. 

Unfortunately...you just can't carry flair players with no all round game ability anymore.

And there lies the root cause of the issue. I agree that Kasey needs to improve in other areas and as you rightly point out he excepts this however he finds himself going deeper and deeper to get the ball, looks up, sees no movement, then gets caught in possession.

I simply do not understand why we may be moving on a player that we signed for a significant amount only 4 months ago - its not has we did not know what we were getting!

Famara, whilst having some good moments yesterday, does not move when he should most of the time and significantly, actually has little pace, so would be unlikely to get on the end of too many through balls.

 

[spudski]

6 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

And there lies the root cause of the issue. I agree that Kasey needs to improve in other areas and as you rightly point out he excepts this however he finds himself going deeper and deeper to get the ball, looks up, sees no movement, then gets caught in possession.

I simply do not understand why we may be moving on a player that we signed for a significant amount only 4 months ago - its not has we did not know what we were getting!

Famara, whilst having some good moments yesterday, does not move when he should most of the time and significantly, actually has little pace, so would be unlikely to get on the end of too many through balls.

 

I really don't think he's moving on.

Swansea may have enquired to his availability...and that is all. 

My gut is he'll stay, work hard at fitness etc.

We'll bring in a couple strikers... one's with correct movement.

He'll be used...but not right now.

That's my gut instinct.

There will be games where KP is needed...and others where Eliasson is needed.

[bcfc01]

LJ said yesterday that he can't see Palmer going anywhere and that he'll soon be getting games here..

 

 

[AshtonGreat]

52 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

He seems to fall into that JET/Tomlin/Noble/Trundle category of a highly talented player who can show flashes of brilliance.. but the the trade off is a requirement to build the entire team around him. I don't think we're quite good enough at this level to manage that. Madness to let him leave though, he can play a big part before the end of the season.

I don't think he's even earned the right to be put in the same category as those players yet

[The hand of RO'D]

46 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

LJ said yesterday that he can't see Palmer going anywhere and that he'll soon be getting games here..

 

 

LJ knows that we can't get the best out of KP with our current front line with neither making runs behind the defence. 

From what I know it all depends on our 2 striker targets in January. We saw the way KP played with Afobe and we are looking at a striker in the same ilk, if we land our main target then KP will play. 

[Phileas Fogg]

35 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

I don't think he's even earned the right to be put in the same category as those players yet

You've misunderstood

[Roe]

He'll play against Shrewsbury where him and Rodri will get a hat-trick each.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

It's worth going back to interviews with KP when he signed for us.

He is quoted as saying he feels most comfortable here, it feels homely, has made good friends and that his family also like it and feel settled here.

He is also quoted as saying he came because he thought LJ could develop his all round game. He says he knows he can do more defensively and that he has struggled with fitness...hence all the extra training in the summer and now.

LJ wanted a flair player, to make that pass...but knows, as does KP that he needs to improve his overall game to be considered.

The system we play has nothing to do with KPs performances...most of his bad performances are down to individual error... mostly giving the ball away, and concentration. Not LJs fault.

It doesn't help when your main striker doesn't move for you...unlike Afobe. 

Unfortunately...you just can't carry flair players with no all round game ability anymore.

I know there has been a lot of focus on missing Afobe’s runs, but I think Nagy plays quick, progressive forward passes, and he was out injured too.  He looked good earlier this season.  His form (even though I’m a big fan) has dropped off.

[RedEyez]

Here’s the link to what LJ said about KP in case anyone hasn’t heard it

 

[Swede]

Fans used to make the same dismissive remarks about Bobby Reid and look where he ended up. Kasey Palmer is a talent we are lucky to have. With the right type of forward recruiting he will flourish.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I know there has been a lot of focus on missing Afobe’s runs, but I think Nagy plays quick, progressive forward passes, and he was out injured too.  He looked good earlier this season.  His form (even though I’m a big fan) has dropped off.

For me Nagy looks far better when he is allowed to drift forward a little bit. When Korey came on Nagy seemed to find himself in more advanced areas.

From what I have seen so far, I think that's a better role for him in a 2 with a natural holder. I know he is classed as a natural holder, but defensively he isn't quite what Korey is in the physical championship. He might still be adapting.

As for Palmer. I don't get why when we have played Watkins and Weimann as a pair in a 3322, why we haven't played Palmer in there. He has always gone with O'Dowda. But that's 3 very hard working players, but none got any real magic. We could have gone with 2 of those, with Palmer's attributes threading it though.

We could have played a 3412 and used Palmer in a Duffy kind of free role that Sheffield United did. And have loads of high work rate all over the park to compensate Palmer's not great work rate.

He'd have fitted in there nicely with good hard work and movement ahead of him in Watkins and Weimann.

If we are really signing Nketiah on loan then I'd be surprised if he is loaned out. I think he has been quite poor in not being able to adapt at all to what we have up front, and he will have to improve on that. But he can be superb when in the right team.