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The Lee Johnson Thread (Merged)

Never to the dark side

By Never to the dark side
in Football Chat

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TonyTonyTony

TonyTonyTony

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Brownhill vs Freeman

Kelly vs Ayling. 
 

Agreed re Ayling - not convinced about Freeman. He was a bit flakey when at the gate.

Given the sheer number of players that went through the club under LJ, you can find stats on players to make any argument about him fit. What is 100% sure is that his managerial CV will be full of references to Josh/Lloyd/Bobby and moneyball. Hence why he has got a job with a big (yes big) club.

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dREDful

dREDful

Posted
Posted

Think it's time we all moved on now and stopped concerning ourselves, as a Championship club, with a lower league manager.

His chapter here is over and it's highly likely our paths never cross again if he doesn't get Sunderland promoted. 

Move on, he's really not that important in the grand scheme of things. 

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Davefevs

Davefevs

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

It’s when posters come up with reasons why players who improved under LJ would have improved anyway that you know their view is blinded by some weird dislike for LJ. 

Focus on the bad and excuse all the good? Yeah that seems so balanced! 

Is that in response to my post Dave?

I think it’s a genuine question to ask.  I’d say not taking age / development curve into the equation is a blinkered.  It’s kinda why we buy young players, because they have headroom to improve.

Wouldn’t you expect most young players with potential to have that headroom?  If a good coach gets them to fulfil it, great, if a coach gets them there quicker, great.   If LJ takes the credit for that, what about the ones that didn’t improve, or plateaued?  Is that the individual’s fault then?

I’d say that’s far more balanced than just taking the ones that have improved and giving LJ all the credit for it.

I would use two examples - Brownhill and O’Dowda.  Both arrived on pretty equal footing, similar age, plenty of game time for previous clubs.  One got the better and better, earning a £7m move to Premier League Burnley.  The other became a bit part player under Johnson.

Do you give LJ the credit for Brownhill but let him off for Callum.  Or do you perhaps look at it being a mixture of LJ’s coaching and Josh’s desire to improve?  If so, what does that say for Callum under LJ?

It appears as if Holden is getting the much more out of Callum at this point that LJ did in best part of 3 seasons.

 

 

 

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Bristol Oil Services

Bristol Oil Services

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

 

Lj is gone: we are unlikely to finish higher than he averaged 

What did LJ "average"? What was his "average" finishing position over his three full seasons and 41 games (excluding his first few months and games from Feb 2016)?

So what is the average of 17, 11, 8 and 12? Is it 12? 

Lee "12th" Johnson? No great shame, no great shakes; just bang average. Mediocre.  

For a club wanting 6th place minimum and a play-off chance, we had the wrong bloke in charge (with the benefit of hindsight). For this club, in this league, with our budget/players, to make the play-offs we need a bit of a miracle, we need a coach that can work miracles, we need a coach almost as special as Johnson implied or suggested he himself was.

Otherwise, it ain't happening. If "we are unlikely to finish higher than he averaged" then we are wasting our time, we're going around in circles.

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IAmNick

IAmNick

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

It’s when posters come up with reasons why players who improved under LJ would have improved anyway that you know their view is blinded by some weird dislike for LJ. 

Focus on the bad and excuse all the good? Yeah that seems so balanced! 

I think the difficulty is trying to find the value that was added by the manager/coach right?

If a player is already at the club and would have improved a load even if I was managing then it'd be strange to attribute that to me. I think that's where it becomes subjective which is what people are trying to say - rather than that LJ had zero impact at all.

If a 1 / 10 player would become a 6 / 10 player under you or I, and an 8 / 10 one under Lee do you score him 2 or 7 "points"? It's impossible to know of course but that's what I think the discussion is about.

As others have said, is it then fair to list the two (or whatever) big successes over the years and ignore the break evens / failures... or the players who are now a success but weren't so much before? What about the ones we sold thinking they'd plateaued or we just didn't recognise their potential, who then went on to improve even more?

I don't think that's having a weird dislike for Lee, although a few obviously do!

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Davefevs

Davefevs

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

What did LJ "average"? What was his "average" finishing position over his three full seasons and 41 games (excluding his first few months and games from Feb 2016)?

So what is the average of 17, 11, 8 and 12? Is it 12? 

Lee "12th" Johnson? No great shame, no great shakes; just bang average. Mediocre.  

For a club wanting 6th place minimum and a play-off chance, we had the wrong bloke in charge (with the benefit of hindsight). For this club, in this league, with our budget/players, to make the play-offs we need a bit of a miracle, we need a coach that can work miracles, we need a coach almost as special as Johnson implied or suggested he himself was.

Otherwise, it ain't happening. If "we are unlikely to finish higher than he averaged" then we are wasting our time, we're going around in circles.

Agree with sentiments.  Digressing, I love the term “bang average”.  The word average means in the middle (sort of) and if you said “slap, bang in the middle” it is perfectly clear what it means.  However when we add bang and average together it seems to mean anything but in the middle, but a move towards mediocre!!! It’s just one of those things that makes me chuckle.  Sorry to digress! ???

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Sheltons Army

Sheltons Army

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Agree with sentiments.  Digressing, I love the term “bang average”.  The word average means in the middle (sort of) and if you said “slap, bang in the middle” it is perfectly clear what it means.  However when we add bang and average together it seems to mean anything but in the middle, but a move towards mediocre!!! It’s just one of those things that makes me chuckle.  Sorry to digress! ???

F******* lost me Dave

?

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IAmNick

IAmNick

Posted
Posted
40 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

What did LJ "average"? What was his "average" finishing position over his three full seasons and 41 games (excluding his first few months and games from Feb 2016)?

So what is the average of 17, 11, 8 and 12? Is it 12? 

Lee "12th" Johnson? No great shame, no great shakes; just bang average. Mediocre.  

For a club wanting 6th place minimum and a play-off chance, we had the wrong bloke in charge (with the benefit of hindsight). For this club, in this league, with our budget/players, to make the play-offs we need a bit of a miracle, we need a coach that can work miracles, we need a coach almost as special as Johnson implied or suggested he himself was.

Otherwise, it ain't happening. If "we are unlikely to finish higher than he averaged" then we are wasting our time, we're going around in circles.

It's a fair point, but for me the time he had becomes an increasingly large mark in the "negatives" column as it increases even if the league position is average.

Most managers (rightly or wrongly) don't have the luxury of time, and it's reasonably accepted than giving your manager time is a good thing. The more quickly a manger has a positive effect is a big positive mark for me, as they're working in an unfamiliar club, with unfamiliar tools (players/staff) which they may not want or know how to use. However, as the time they're given increases so should their results be expected to increase - as their coaching becomes more ingrained, the squad more closely reflects what they want, their staff becomes their choses, and their understanding of the club in general increases.

For that reason I think ending up "bang average" is actually a negative point. I'd expect the unusually high amount of time given to Lee to have added increasing amounts of value to the club, and that should have been reflected on the pitch. After 4+ years average doesn't mean what it did after just 1 or 2.

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Portland Bill

Portland Bill

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, City oz said:

He sure did but there were some positives like the cup run and promotion. It is regret though he will always be sadly remembered at BS3 as a talker that came across what people wanted to hear and the manager that was at his genuine peak in the championship and couldn’t take us further. He wasn’t really a very good player either. Still ex city though so deserves some respect 

Which promotion was this ?

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Harry

Harry

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Interestingly, Phil Parkinson who Sunderland have just sacked, had a better record during his time at Sunderland, than LJ had during his time with us!

And my orange looks like an apple 

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1960maaan

1960maaan

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Agree with sentiments.  Digressing, I love the term “bang average”.  The word average means in the middle (sort of) and if you said “slap, bang in the middle” it is perfectly clear what it means.  However when we add bang and average together it seems to mean anything but in the middle, but a move towards mediocre!!! It’s just one of those things that makes me chuckle.  Sorry to digress! ???

Do you mean "but a move towards Bang mediocre!!!"

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YorkshireSection

YorkshireSection

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Is that in response to my post Dave?

I think it’s a genuine question to ask.  I’d say not taking age / development curve into the equation is a blinkered.  It’s kinda why we buy young players, because they have headroom to improve.

Wouldn’t you expect most young players with potential to have that headroom?  If a good coach gets them to fulfil it, great, if a coach gets them there quicker, great.   If LJ takes the credit for that, what about the ones that didn’t improve, or plateaued?  Is that the individual’s fault then?

I’d say that’s far more balanced than just taking the ones that have improved and giving LJ all the credit for it.

I would use two examples - Brownhill and O’Dowda.  Both arrived on pretty equal footing, similar age, plenty of game time for previous clubs.  One got the better and better, earning a £7m move to Premier League Burnley.  The other became a bit part player under Johnson.

Do you give LJ the credit for Brownhill but let him off for Callum.  Or do you perhaps look at it being a mixture of LJ’s coaching and Josh’s desire to improve?  If so, what does that say for Callum under LJ?

It appears as if Holden is getting the much more out of Callum at this point that LJ did in best part of 3 seasons.

 

 

 

Yes, however, Callum IMHO Is only getting game time because of our current injury problems, there is no way he'd be featuring if we had a fully fit squad. 

 

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Bristol Oil Services

Bristol Oil Services

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

That is not interesting at all.  He has managed a massive fish in a tiny pond. 

You think that's easy? What do you eat? Where do you swim? How do you even turn around and swim the other way? Where do you find a mate? There isn't one - you're massive, the pond is tiny. There's no room. Not even for any plastic bits.

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Portland Bill

Portland Bill

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

That is not interesting at all.  He has managed a massive fish in a tiny pond. LJ didn’t so it’s not compatible at all

Fair enough, I thought it was!. 

My thinking is, that it just goes to show how well he will have to do their to keep his job, ie, better than he has done anywhere else in his managerial career. 

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Nogbad the Bad

Nogbad the Bad

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

I really hope he succeeds. Sunderland will be the first results I look out for now!

If LJ succeeds there good luck to him, he'll deserve to.

But I couldn't care less if he does or not.

You seem to be a fan of the man himself. Why?

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CodeRed

CodeRed

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

I really hope he succeeds. Sunderland will be the first results I look out for now!

Me too, as I do with the Gas....to see (& hope) they've lost.  Perfect weekend- watch City win and see that Rovers ( and now Sunderland ) have lost.

Petty? maybe ......but years of Johnsonball and Johnsonbullshit does encourage a bit of schadenfreude.

 

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Davefevs

Davefevs

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, YorkshireSection said:

Yes, however, Callum IMHO Is only getting game time because of our current injury problems, there is no way he'd be featuring if we had a fully fit squad. 

 

In fairness I think he’s worked himself into a position where he’s given Dean something to think about, even when others are back.

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And Its Smith

And Its Smith

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

If LJ succeeds there good luck to him, he'll deserve to.

But I couldn't care less if he does or not.

You seem to be a fan of the man himself. Why?

Seems like a really nice guy and he’s really passionate about that he does. Would mean a lot to him to have a promotion on his CV. He did a lot for this club whether people realise it or not 

 

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