The root cause of our problem

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Spot on. 
If Holden’s interview was “I’m gonna play attacking football, get the fans out of their seats, be on the front foot and entertain our supporters” then I’m sure if any of us had interviewed him we’d have given him the job. 
 

However, when we ask for a copy of his CV, we’d probably think, “mmmmm.....we’ll get back to you sir”. 
 

“Oh, but hold on, what’s this at the top of your resumé? You’re an incredible human being. Super. You’re hired. 

Don’t get me wrong I really like Holden, but Hughton was my non-exciting first choice, followed by Cook. But I got behind the Holden appointment because I saw encouraging signs from his caretaker spell.  He carried that into the season, but it does appear to be unraveling.  Think we will know by end of Jan whether it’s gonna work or not.  We will be past the halfway mark, maybe have some players back and / or some new recruits.  We might also see how much the board believe in him in the next window.  I don’t think there’s much money there.

Back to your point....and pure fantasy speculation too.

Hughton might've said:

- I’ve assessed the squad, I need £x million now or it’s gonna be a hard, dour slog for 12-18 months whilst I reassemble the squad.

That might’ve been the honest answer and the CV qualifies JL and MA to take it seriously.  But it’s quite possibly not the answer they want to hear.

Cook might’ve said similar, he might’ve said:

- I watched your side, I’ve prepped against them several times and there are big flaws in the squad.  It’s gonna take money and / or time, etc.

I guess the big question for me was were JL and MA the best people to conduct the interview.  Should they have brought in some independent?

Its not hard for Dean to come on and say:

- I know the squad really well, it’s a minor tweak here and there, won’t cost you much, the academy is producing some good players who’ve nit really been given a chance.

And that impress them, as he’s a great human too.

Im still hoping it’s a “hiccup” (some of you will say that’s an understatement) and Dean gets back on it, because he is making mistakes at the mo.  But I am worried at the mo’.

[BigTone]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Don’t get me wrong I really like Holden, but Hughton was my non-exciting first choice, followed by Cook. But I got behind the Holden appointment because I saw encouraging signs from his caretaker spell.  He carried that into the season, but it does appear to be unraveling.  Think we will know by end of Jan whether it’s gonna work or not.  We will be past the halfway mark, maybe have some players back and / or some new recruits.  We might also see how much the board believe in him in the next window.  I don’t think there’s much money there.

Back to your point....and pure fantasy speculation too.

Hughton might've said:

- I’ve assessed the squad, I need £x million now or it’s gonna be a hard, dour slog for 12-18 months whilst I reassemble the squad.

That might’ve been the honest answer and the CV qualifies JL and MA to take it seriously.  But it’s quite possibly not the answer they want to hear.

Cook might’ve said similar, he might’ve said:

- I watched your side, I’ve prepped against them several times and there are big flaws in the squad.  It’s gonna take money and / or time, etc.

I guess the big question for me was were JL and MA the best people to conduct the interview.  Should they have brought in some independent?

Its not hard for Dean to come on and say:

- I know the squad really well, it’s a minor tweak here and there, won’t cost you much, the academy is producing some good players who’ve nit really been given a chance.

And that impress them, as he’s a great human too.

Im still hoping it’s a “hiccup” (some of you will say that’s an understatement) and Dean gets back on it, because he is making mistakes at the mo.  But I am worried at the mo’.

I think Dafydd that Dean was the option taken because with the pandemic no one knows what the future holds. I really think this season is one where we tread water to a certain degree. Once things get back to some sort of normality then things might be different. Now for most clubs (us included) it is a matter of survival. I for one am happy to have SL at the helm as he has the where withall (and financial investment) to make sure we do.

[Lanterne Rouge]

5 minutes ago, BigTone said:

I think Dafydd that Dean was the option taken because with the pandemic no one knows what the future holds. I really think this season is one where we tread water to a certain degree. Once things get back to some sort of normality then things might be different. Now for most clubs (us included) it is a matter of survival. I for one am happy to have SL at the helm as he has the where withall (and financial investment) to make sure we do.

Well put Tone. It`s a pity others can`t see it.

it`s the `I want it now and I`m going to stamp my feet and scream until I do` world we live in I suppose.

[BigTone]

7 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Well put Tone. It`s a pity others can`t see it.

it`s the `I want it now and I`m going to stamp my feet and scream until I do` world we live in I suppose.

Exactly 

[tin]

16 minutes ago, BigTone said:

I think Dafydd that Dean was the option taken because with the pandemic no one knows what the future holds. I really think this season is one where we tread water to a certain degree. Once things get back to some sort of normality then things might be different. Now for most clubs (us included) it is a matter of survival. I for one am happy to have SL at the helm as he has the where withall (and financial investment) to make sure we do.

And if the board had appointed Holden after let’s say a week, and cited the reason for the appointment was the pandemic, almost everyone would’ve understood and accepted it. But they didn’t. They chose to peddle more bullshit about aspirations for promotion and that’s what people find difficult to stomach. They just need to be open and honest with us to get some patience and respect in return. 

[BigTone]

9 minutes ago, tin said:

And if the board had appointed Holden after let’s say a week, and cited the reason for the appointment was the pandemic, almost everyone would’ve understood and accepted it. But they didn’t. They chose to peddle more bullshit about aspirations for promotion and that’s what people find difficult to stomach. They just need to be open and honest with us to get some patience and respect in return. 

Would they ? Something tells me otherwise. I think some need to take a step off of their soapbox and take a look around in order to put things into perspective. You only need to look at some of the posts on here to understand what we are dealing with. No one knew / knows how long this pandemic will continue. If what is happening in London is anything to go by then people care only about themselves. I suppose in the same way SL can be forgiven for trying to protect his enormous investment. Perhaps, just perhaps we need to offer him some patience and respect also.

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, BigTone said:

I think Dafydd that Dean was the option taken because with the pandemic no one knows what the future holds. I really think this season is one where we tread water to a certain degree. Once things get back to some sort of normality then things might be different. Now for most clubs (us included) it is a matter of survival. I for one am happy to have SL at the helm as he has the where withall (and financial investment) to make sure we do.

I think that’s a fair point.  As a club, financially, we are well placed to come through covid, certainly more so than several other clubs.

And I guess if SL, MA and JL had come out and said that, they’d have been lynched.

For me I’m not overly expectant, but I look at the number of clubs that came up just before us, with us and just after us and look at their successes, some of whom historically have been bigger, and failures!

2013/14: Wolves (Prem), Brentford (PO), Rotherham (yo-yo)

2014/15: City (8th), PNE (7th), MKD (relegated)

2015/16: Wigan (yo-yo), Burton (yo-yo), Barnsley (yo-yo)

And you think we’ve not done bad at all to establish ourselves.  I think the slightly galling thing is that we’ve moved into the league of top half payers, and yet we haven’t had a season to match Brentford or PNE who are doing it on smaller budgets.  No point comparing us to “basket case” clubs either.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, tin said:

And if the board had appointed Holden after let’s say a week, and cited the reason for the appointment was the pandemic, almost everyone would’ve understood and accepted it. But they didn’t. They chose to peddle more bullshit about aspirations for promotion and that’s what people find difficult to stomach. They just need to be open and honest with us to get some patience and respect in return. 

I don’t agree.  If it was a pandemic thing, just stick with LJ.  I don’t think scouting the global market () and interviewing a few, speaking to 10 was wrong at all, even if that cane back and confirmed Holden was the best choice.  I would have though far less of the process had they just gone and appointed Holden...and missed someone as a result.

Open and honest?  That’s a different debate

[BigTone]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think that’s a fair point.  As a club, financially, we are well placed to come through covid, certainly more so than several other clubs.

And I guess if SL, MA and JL had come out and said that, they’d have been lynched.

For me I’m not overly expectant, but I look at the number of clubs that came up just before us, with us and just after us and look at their successes, some of whom historically have been bigger, and failures!

2013/14: Wolves (Prem), Brentford (PO), Rotherham (yo-yo)

2014/15: City (8th), PNE (7th), MKD (relegated)

2015/16: Wigan (yo-yo), Burton (yo-yo), Barnsley (yo-yo)

And you think we’ve not done bad at all to establish ourselves.  I think the slightly galling thing is that we’ve moved into the league of top half payers, and yet we haven’t had a season to match Brentford or PNE who are doing it on smaller budgets.  No point comparing us to “basket case” clubs either.

Take your point and respect it fully. Just think this is not the season to be being over expectant as some obviously are. The finger pointing, blame proportioning and "I'm in the know" bollocks has just got tiresome. How much revenue have we lost by having an empty stadium (plus obvious add ons of paying clientele) needs to be factored into where the club stands today.  I for one look forward to the future. I'm 100% sure many fans of other clubs do not have that luxury.

[Rob k]

27 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Well put Tone. It`s a pity others can`t see it.

it`s the `I want it now and I`m going to stamp my feet and scream until I do` world we live in I suppose.

To be fair we have not been in the top flight since the 70s so not sure that people are ‘stamping their feet’ 

[tin]

7 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Would they ? Something tells me otherwise. I think some need to take a step off of their soapbox and take a look around in order to put things into perspective. You only need to look at some of the posts on here to understand what we are dealing with. No one knew / knows how long this pandemic will continue. If what is happening in London is anything to go by then people care only about themselves. I suppose in the same way SL can be forgiven for trying to protect his enormous investment. Perhaps, just perhaps we need to offer him some patience and respect also.

I can’t speak for anyone else but for me, if they swiftly named Holden and said the pandemic was the reason, I’d have cut them some slack. 

As for SL, he’s had 19 years at the helm. He’s had enough patience in that time and any respect he’s had, IMO, has been eroded by a succession of unambitious appointments and those he puts his trust in. 

[BigTone]

1 minute ago, tin said:

I can’t speak for anyone else but for me, if they swiftly named Holden and said the pandemic was the reason, I’d have cut them some slack. 

As for SL, he’s had 19 years at the helm. He’s had enough patience in that time and any respect he’s had, IMO, has been eroded by a succession of unambitious appointments and those he puts his trust in. 

I think your guide dog is wanting its dinner. Open your eyes and look at what we have as against what we had. 

If not, go see your bank, take out a loan, organise a takeover and run the club in your way.

[BigTone]

7 minutes ago, Rob k said:

To be fair we have not been in the top flight since the 70s so not sure that people are ‘stamping their feet’ 

Read the thread, there is plenty of foot stamping going on.

[Rob k]

1 minute ago, BigTone said:

Read the thread, there is plenty of foot stamping going on.

I’ve read the thread - the point being that people are hardly stamping their feet in a we want everything now kind of way - in fact I’d say as fans we have been bloody patient 

[BigTone]

12 minutes ago, Rob k said:

I’ve read the thread - the point being that people are hardly stamping their feet in a we want everything now kind of way - in fact I’d say as fans we have been bloody patient 

If you think that then you are deluded given the situation the world finds itself today and the posts in this thread. The football club is no different to any other business and needs to adapt to market conditions. Things are good you can look to expand. Things are tight (as they are) then you act accordingly in all areas of said business in order to protect what you have. Rest assured that future transfer fees we can expect will likely be nowhere near our valuation. That said a valuation is only what the market is prepared to pay and the two can be poles apart. That rules out irresponsible spending etc etc. Any incoming transfers for example in January will be a big bonus (and risk financially).

[Rob k]

Just now, BigTone said:

If you think that then you are deluded given the situation the world finds itself today. The football club is no different to any other business and needs to adapt to market conditions. That rules out irresponsible spending etc etc. Any incoming transfers for example in January will be a big bonus (and risk financially).

What are you finding so difficult to understand?

[BigTone]

5 minutes ago, Rob k said:

What are you finding so difficult to understand?

Your mindset

[cidered abroad]

3 hours ago, BigTone said:

Maybe so but in the process has built a fantastic infrastructure for the club that can be built on to move ourselves forward.

But when will we look remotely like "Moving Forward"?

[Rob k]

3 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Your mindset

Clearly - you appear to be unable to take in what’s being said 

[BigTone]

Just now, cidered abroad said:

But when will we look remotely like "Moving Forward"?

You tell me if your crystal ball allows considering Covid. We could make a killing down the bookies if you have a definitive answer.

2 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Clearly - you appear to be unable to take in what’s being said 

Dear oh dear. Never mind.

[Sheltons Army]

25 minutes ago, BigTone said:

If you think that then you are deluded given the situation the world finds itself today. The football club is no different to any other business and needs to adapt to market conditions. That rules out irresponsible spending etc etc. Any incoming transfers for example in January will be a big bonus (and risk financially).

I think you make some sensible and relevant points Tone

I also think that the current meltdown has more to do with a build up of missed opportunities and frustration over the years , with frustration exacerbated by those who eye SLs wealth (Without fully understanding or taking into account FFP)

Im fortunate in so much that I have zero interest in Premier League but stuck in a dilemna of wanting us to perform well and get results without a desperate hope that we get promoted.

For all the propaganda - We are way off being in a place to hit the Premier League  IMHO

If we somehow went up with this squad we’d get mullered weekly and probably break a few records

We don’t have the recruitment set up , or head coach in place to seriously have a go in The Prem 

All very frustrating , more for those more keen to see us in the top flight , but that’s the reality IMHO

SL has done many good things for the club , but his appointments have been average at best - If only he had recruited somebody with vast experience on the football side to advise and assist him in setting up the football side

 

The vitriol towards DH is unfair and he’s getting the brunt end of people’s built up frustrations

[Harry]

31 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Take your point and respect it fully. Just think this is not the season to be being over expectant as some obviously are. The finger pointing, blame proportioning and "I'm in the know" bollocks has just got tiresome. How much revenue have we lost by having an empty stadium (plus obvious add ons of paying clientele) needs to be factored into where the club stands today.  I for one look forward to the future. I'm 100% sure many fans of other clubs do not have that luxury.

Just to make my position absolutely clear Tone, there’s no foot-stamping or over-expectancy on my part. 
I went into this season knowing full well we’d have little chance of a playoff push, and that’s certainly not Dean Holden’s fault. 
 

That doesn’t stop me firmly believing, as discussed in this thread, that Ashton is the wrong man, with the wrong strategy. 
 

I had very little expectation going into this season. I believe Holden was the wrong choice, whilst I am also perfectly willing to give him the season now he’s in situ. I’m not gonna call for his head. I also believe our transfer activity this summer was awful. I also believe that this group of players are not good enough for a top 6 shot, and I think that LJ actually over-achieved with them. I also believe that Holden is the best coach of all those at our club now, but he’s now having to conduct less coaching in his role. So we’ve got a lesser manager from last season and lesser coaching too. 
 

But certainly no foot-stamping from me. I just don’t like or respect our CEO. 

[BigTone]

3 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

I think you make some sensible and relevant points Tone

I also think that the current meltdown has more to do with a build up of missed opportunities and frustration over the years , with frustration exacerbated by those who eye SLs wealth (Without fully understanding or taking into account FFP)

Im fortunate in so much that I have zero interest in Premier League but stuck in a dilemna of wanting us to perform well and get results without a desperate hope that we get promoted.

For all the propaganda - We are way off being in a place to hit the Premier League  IMHO

If we somehow went up with this squad we’d get mullered weekly and probably break a few records

We don’t have the recruitment set up , or head coach in place to seriously have a go in The Prem 

All very frustrating , more for those more keen to see us in the top flight , but that’s the reality IMHO

SL has done many good things for the club , but his appointments have been average at best - If only he had recruited somebody with vast experience on the football side to advise and assist him in setting up the football side

Shelts, I agree with most of what you say. The only benefit of promotion to the PL are the parachute payments when we get relegated again. That said I for one am prepared for that. Many on here won't be and the same old bollocks will get rolled out yet again. SL has no ambition, MA is the cause of Covid 19 and we should never have appointed Pep Guardiola as manager as he was the cheap option.

[Rob k]

2 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Shelts, I agree with most of what you say. The only benefit of promotion to the PL are the parachute payments when we get relegated again. That said I for one am prepared for that. Many on here won't be and the same old bollocks will get rolled out yet again. SL has no ambition, MA is the cause of Covid 19 and we should never have appointed Pep Guardiola as manager as he was the cheap option.

I started watching city in 84, in that time I’ve seen the like of Barnsley, Swindon, Cardiff, Huddersfield, Charlton, Watford, Cardiff and Swansea all play in the PL - i don’t care if we come down, i just want one season where i can say I’ve seen City in the top flight 

so yes - it does get slightly frustrating when SL comes out implying we will get a decent manager and last years coach Is rolled out. Tell me how that wasn’t the cheap option? It certainly wasn’t the best 

[BigTone]

23 minutes ago, Rob k said:

I started watching city in 84, in that time I’ve seen the like of Barnsley, Swindon, Cardiff, Huddersfield, Charlton, Watford, Cardiff and Swansea all play in the PL - i don’t care if we come down, i just want one season where i can say I’ve seen City in the top flight 

so yes - it does get slightly frustrating when SL comes out implying we will get a decent manager and last years coach Is rolled out. Tell me how that wasn’t the cheap option? It certainly wasn’t the best 

Ah, you youngsters.  I've seen City in the top flight. Good idea to remember there was a top flight before the PL. Beating Arsenal at Highbury started the season on a real high. Your time will come believe me but remember 2 years before you starting watching we almost slipped into oblivion which is why old timers like myself appreciate where we are now with SL. Its taken it's time granted but we are probably in the best position financially that we have been in our history although no doubt some will correct me on that score. My first game was 20 years before yours. Doesn't make me a better supporter by any means but maybe one who appreciates our history and how far we have progressed infrastructure wise. Now with time and patience we can return to the top flight but not to the detriment of the clubs long term standing. Like you I don't care if we become a yoyo club. The benefits financially will cement our future if managed responsibly. In SL I trust he will. 

As for the coach being the cheap option let's remember the pandemic and the fact that an empty stadium for a year will likely lose us £10m (rough guess) alone not including food, drink and merchandise revenue. So do we take the expensive option or cheap option as coach ? It's your money so what would you do ? The club needs to curb spending so we have a club for the future. Again before your time but 1982 was desperate for a lot of us.

Have patience and our prize will be delivered. Not this year though I think.

[BigTone]

53 minutes ago, Harry said:

Just to make my position absolutely clear Tone, there’s no foot-stamping or over-expectancy on my part. 
I went into this season knowing full well we’d have little chance of a playoff push, and that’s certainly not Dean Holden’s fault. 
 

That doesn’t stop me firmly believing, as discussed in this thread, that Ashton is the wrong man, with the wrong strategy. 
 

I had very little expectation going into this season. I believe Holden was the wrong choice, whilst I am also perfectly willing to give him the season now he’s in situ. I’m not gonna call for his head. I also believe our transfer activity this summer was awful. I also believe that this group of players are not good enough for a top 6 shot, and I think that LJ actually over-achieved with them. I also believe that Holden is the best coach of all those at our club now, but he’s now having to conduct less coaching in his role. So we’ve got a lesser manager from last season and lesser coaching too. 
 

But certainly no foot-stamping from me. I just don’t like or respect our CEO. 

H, I actually agree with most of your sentiments but let's return to the OP who has laid all the clubs faults at the feet of Ashton. You don't like him for whatever reason but I see someone who has pulled us up by the pubes and eventually got some decent revenue for the club especially in regards to transfers (and not before time). All the rest of this ITK crap is just bollocks because of a preconceived opinion. I've worked with many I don't like or thought were idiots but maybe just maybe that was because I was the actual idiot.

[QuedgeRed]

2 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Well put Tone. It`s a pity others can`t see it.

it`s the `I want it now and I`m going to stamp my feet and scream until I do` world we live in I suppose.

I’ve been screaming and stamping my feet for a f###ing long time!!!

[BigTone]

11 minutes ago, QuedgeRed said:

I’ve been screaming and stamping my feet for a f###ing long time!!!

Your neighbours must love you

[BS4 on Tour...]

On 19/12/2020 at 00:34, CodeRed said:

Of course I am aware that DH is a very big part of the problem....

Haha! Look at the 8th post on page 1 of this thread - yep that’s you saying “I don’t think Holden is the problem ...”

[reddoh]

On 19/12/2020 at 11:17, Bristol Rob said:

Okay, so the answer seems to be...

Reappoint Colin Sexton, who in turn can reach out to Eileen Drewrey who, though the power of faith will work a miracle on our sick, lame and suspended.

The power of Colin and Eileen will see the Malabo part, and in walk the manager to lead us to the promised land. Spending big on superhuman players who are immune to pain.

All of this will be funded by a pixie who followed a star whilst riding aloft a rainbow unicorn, keeping us well withing FFP rules and not needing us to sell Marina Dolman's Rolls Royce to a shady 3rd party, buying it back again and then reselling it for parts.

Yes!

Clearly the problem at the club must be Maggie L, so far she is the only person who hasn't been blamed. And if she hadn't been so quick to stuck every painting Jon had done on the fridge door, we would never have had the comic sans or centenary master piece.

The funds we could have generated with proper kits would have paid for the Liverpool side to have torn up their contracts and signed for us, where promotion would have been achieved by Christmas and everyone would be happy.

f me send some in the post