4-4-2

[spudski]

53 minutes ago, Simon79 said:

& that in a nutshell is our biggest problem. It has been for quite some time. I cannot believe it still hasn’t been addressed. It was probably my biggest gripe during LJ’s tenure. I use to think the players were potentially over coached & therefore became to rigid, but I’m starting to wonder. Is it systemic of the game now? No creativity, no self problem solving, no spark, no intensity,  just slow ponderous play. Shape shape shape! Have to say, the game is starting to bore me, is that the situation we currently find ourselves in? I’m not sure. But I long for a player to get me off my seat in anticipation, but have those days gone? Have we got a player that can genuinely beat a man with skill? Create space? Make that pass? We possibly did, but we sent him out on loan. But ultimately, movement or lack of it is our biggest problem going forward. COYR 

I agree totally.

We have gone from playing expansive creative football to one of ponderous static 'safe' football.

I remember talking about this a few seasons back.

I said if we didn't progress quickly, we would become just like any other mid table side in this division...and it's becoming like that.

And like you...I find the lack of movement unbelievable.

The only forward we've had in recent years that had that intelligence was Marty Taylor... unfortunately he didn't make the grade in other departments...but his reading and movement was far better than anything we've got up top now.

It seems that when we are building play slowly from the back,that it's acceptable to just jog along the last line of defence if you are a forward.

How many times do we see a pass into our forwards and they lose it, because they don't make space...

How many times are they looking for a ball beyond them with just a couple meters between them and the GK...

How many times do we see the ball into the box, we lose it, and then lose the second ball and straight on the back foot again...

It happens every game. It's now the one thing you can predict...regardless of personnel.

Tbh...our football looks like it's come out of a coaching manual from the late 90s...it's that bad.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

If you, who have been very much in the Holden camp, say that then something is very wrong.

Why on earth would a coach instruct a team to do that? There are no conceivable advantages.

Yep, I have been....I saw lots of positives early season.  Things have changed.  Injuries haven’t helped, but that’s not the only reason.

I can’t believe it’s a set tactic....or perhaps I hope it’s not.

As it stands we have no chance of winning the ball back quickly with the way we are playing, and low chance if building good attacks.

I’m sure Spud would say we are better being a counter attacking side.  I disagree, but the fundamentals are the problems....our differences are in how we might overcome this...which probably aren’t that different in reality.

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I find it all very odd that the signs were there last season and also this season...the fact that we don't create chances.

You'd have thought we'd address that. But we play in exactly the same ways going forward.

I'd love to know how many shots we've had over this and last season from outside the box. It seems to my eye...not that often.

We seem fixated on steady play looking to find the most intricate ball into the box...or failing that, out to a wing back and a ping into a packed box.

For me we do way to little off the ball. Not enough movement to create space, draw players or  make an angle... especially in the last third.

They were indeed there last season, but I witnessed quite big differences in the 5 caretaker games and early season.  But it’s fair to say, we are playing very differently to that 10-12 game spell.

Re shots, Semenyo has had 674 shots

Re movement, the movement has become non-purposeful, “passive” to quote Holden.

I see you’ve replied again.

Matty Taylor (not Marty, please!!!) and Weimann have intelligent movements, some others too, but not to extent of both of them.  Wells movement is a different type...in the 12 yards he is good.

I grew to really appreciate Taylor, shame he struggled to say fit.

This is the kind of stuff I really enjoy on OTIB.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Even so, narrowing the space won't necessarily help us dominate the ball- certainly not vs a 4-3-3 let's say.

It's a good starting point and we need a starting point but how it goes with respect to control and dominantion, not so sure. Of course you can control games without the ball.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

Even so, narrowing the space won't necessarily help us dominate the ball- certainly not vs a 4-3-3 let's say.

It's a good starting point and we need a starting point but how it goes with respect to control and dominantion, not so sure. Of course you can control games without the ball.

It’s certainly not the panacea....it’s a starting point.  Stopping the opposition dominate the ball in important areas of the pitch is the starting point.

My point here isn’t about narrowing the pitch, but shortening it.  Personally I’d like to narrow it as well....but baby steps first!!!

[spudski]

44 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, I have been....I saw lots of positives early season.  Things have changed.  Injuries haven’t helped, but that’s not the only reason.

I can’t believe it’s a set tactic....or perhaps I hope it’s not.

As it stands we have no chance of winning the ball back quickly with the way we are playing, and low chance if building good attacks.

I’m sure Spud would say we are better being a counter attacking side.  I disagree, but the fundamentals are the problems....our differences are in how we might overcome this...which probably aren’t that different in reality.

They were indeed there last season, but I witnessed quite big differences in the 5 caretaker games and early season.  But it’s fair to say, we are playing very differently to that 10-12 game spell.

Re shots, Semenyo has had 674 shots

Re movement, the movement has become non-purposeful, “passive” to quote Holden.

I see you’ve replied again.

Matty Taylor (not Marty, please!!!) and Weimann have intelligent movements, some others too, but not to extent of both of them.  Wells movement is a different type...in the 12 yards he is good.

I grew to really appreciate Taylor, shame he struggled to say fit.

This is the kind of stuff I really enjoy on OTIB.

 

Damn predictive text...back to the future with Matty :laugh: 

I find Weimanns movement indifferent. Where as Taylor showed and made it clear...Weimann confuses. I can see what he's doing...often moving one way, taking the defender with him, then quickly moving in the opposite direction to create the space. Unfortunately...it's done in a way that is never on the same wavelength as the passer of the ball. Often too late or intercepted. Or if passed...Weimann has a nasty habit of the ball pinging about off his foot, shin or knee...as LJ pointed out, he ain't technically gifted for his speed of foot.

I whole heartedly agree about the passes being passive. But that's down to nerves, pressure, lack of understanding etc, etc. If you feel comfortable...it's easy to pass with conviction...so something is wrong.

The players certainly look shackled and rigid...and fans used to complain LJ was over coaching them.

Right now, they don't look like they have a clue what to do...it's almost made up on the hoof.

I'd seriously be questioning certain tactics if late... especially the recent 424 :laugh:

[Simon79]

20 minutes ago, spudski said:

Damn predictive text...back to the future with Matty

I find Weimanns movement indifferent. Where as Taylor showed and made it clear...Weimann confuses. I can see what he's doing...often moving one way, taking the defender with him, then quickly moving in the opposite direction to create the space. Unfortunately...it's done in a way that is never on the same wavelength as the passer of the ball. Often too late or intercepted. Or if passed...Weimann has a nasty habit of the ball pinging about off his foot, shin or knee...as LJ pointed out, he ain't technically gifted for his speed of foot.

I whole heartedly agree about the passes being passive. But that's down to nerves, pressure, lack of understanding etc, etc. If you feel comfortable...it's easy to pass with conviction...so something is wrong.

The players certainly look shackled and rigid...and fans used to complain LJ was over coaching them.

Right now, they don't look like they have a clue what to do...it's almost made up on the hoof.

I'd seriously be questioning certain tactics if late... especially the recent 424

Totall agree reference Matt Taylor, always finding pockets of space, creating angles , always having his head on the turn, unfortunately injuries did him at City imo. Weimann I tend to find is someone who for example would go beyond the defender with only 10 meters between him & the bye line ( very much like Elliasson ), hoping that the passer is going to drop it in there from 40 yards ( hope that all makes sense? ). Basically nonsensical movement. Also tend to find it’s actually his 2nd touch that lets him down, not his first. But at the same time, we’ve missed him since he’s been out injured. COYR 

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, Simon79 said:

Totall agree reference Matt Taylor, always finding pockets of space, creating angles , always having his head on the turn, unfortunately injuries did him at City imo. Weimann I tend to find is someone who for example would go beyond the defender with only 10 meters between him & the bye line ( very much like Elliasson ), hoping that the passer is going to drop it in there from 40 yards ( hope that all makes sense? ). Basically nonsensical movement. Also tend to find it’s actually his 2nd touch that lets him down, not his first. But at the same time, we’ve missed him since he’s been out injured. COYR 

Yes...I completely understand where you are coming from, and it's a problem of our forward line. Expecting perfect balls on a dime with very few feet for error... especially on the edge of the 18 yard box....it just isn't going to happen unless the defence are retreating and facing goal. That's why I think we are better at counter attacking...we create better chances when the defenders aren't organised and facing us. We just don't have the movement to break them down.

[Davefevs]

39 minutes ago, spudski said:

Damn predictive text...back to the future with Matty

I find Weimanns movement indifferent. Where as Taylor showed and made it clear...Weimann confuses. I can see what he's doing...often moving one way, taking the defender with him, then quickly moving in the opposite direction to create the space. Unfortunately...it's done in a way that is never on the same wavelength as the passer of the ball. Often too late or intercepted. Or if passed...Weimann has a nasty habit of the ball pinging about off his foot, shin or knee...as LJ pointed out, he ain't technically gifted for his speed of foot.

I whole heartedly agree about the passes being passive. But that's down to nerves, pressure, lack of understanding etc, etc. If you feel comfortable...it's easy to pass with conviction...so something is wrong.

The players certainly look shackled and rigid...and fans used to complain LJ was over coaching them.

Right now, they don't look like they have a clue what to do...it's almost made up on the hoof.

I'd seriously be questioning certain tactics if late... especially the recent 424

It’s kinda what you buy with counter-attacking football....unless you really base your system on counter-attacking football in which case your breakaways can be very structured...and deadly.

[chinapig]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It’s kinda what you buy with counter-attacking football....unless you really base your system on counter-attacking football in which case your breakaways can be very structured...and deadly.

Indeed and counter attacking football can be good to watch. Mourinho is getting the usual stick but I enjoy watching the current Spurs team. Superbly organised, disciplined, every player understanding and executing his role, pressing consistently at the right time, thrilling on the break.