headhunter Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 Time was when this club had two heads on the touchline working towards a common aim: Dicks & Sillett / Cooper & Middlemass / Jordan & Lumsden / Ward & Connor / Wilson & Barlow / GJ & Millen / Cotts & Pembo / LJ & McAllister Correct me if I am wrong but did MA say at the time of their appointment Simpson & Downing were hired for their experience? Did you catch that one liner from his interview with GT that Covid had meant there was "not much opportunity 11 vs 11 coaching" - maybe this explains why there is no cohesion between defence, midfield & attack. From my limited view I can see nothing coming from our two experienced hires on matchday when they stand on the touchline, cross armed behind Deano. If Pat Mountain is the goalkeeping coach then he is to be praised for getting Bentley back to Premier League standard after a lapse in form last season, but no, wait Rene Gilmartin is the keeper coach isn't he and doing such a fine day job that he spends most matchdays on Robins TV. Ah ,I've just remembered I think I read somewhere that Mountain is the coach for set piece defending - shame on you sir for your efforts so far this season but you are another lurking in the background on matchdays just behind the technical area. And, finally, Kalifa Cisse [good player IMHO] is another in our coaching bubble creating that overcrowded look near the technical area. IIRC his multi-linguistic ability is what brought him onto the staff. I wish he was used as a coach more and then we might see our midfield benefit from his silky skills rather than explaining to Fam, HNM & Nagy how to order in English order a Nando's takeaway from Deliveroo. Nah, too many cooks, just like our midfield [when all fit] - quantity over quality. One final point on Deano and its not his fault. When he came on board in November 2016 we had picked up 30 points from our first 17 league games - not bad. His first game was a Saturday teatime game against Brighton. For this one he was sat just in front of me at the back of the Lansdown. I remember thinking at the end of the game that his addition augers well for the future - including that game we went on to lose 9 of the next 10 in the league!!! Streaky Lee was born or was the coaching dynamic altered by the addition of our nice human such that two's company, three's a crowd! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 Is Cisse still at the club? Don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 24 minutes ago, headhunter said: Time was when this club had two heads on the touchline working towards a common aim: Dicks & Sillett / Cooper & Middlemass / Jordan & Lumsden / Ward & Connor / Wilson & Barlow / GJ & Millen / Cotts & Pembo / LJ & McAllister Correct me if I am wrong but did MA say at the time of their appointment Simpson & Downing were hired for their experience? Did you catch that one liner from his interview with GT that Covid had meant there was "not much opportunity 11 vs 11 coaching" - maybe this explains why there is no cohesion between defence, midfield & attack. From my limited view I can see nothing coming from our two experienced hires on matchday when they stand on the touchline, cross armed behind Deano. If Pat Mountain is the goalkeeping coach then he is to be praised for getting Bentley back to Premier League standard after a lapse in form last season, but no, wait Rene Gilmartin is the keeper coach isn't he and doing such a fine day job that he spends most matchdays on Robins TV. Ah ,I've just remembered I think I read somewhere that Mountain is the coach for set piece defending - shame on you sir for your efforts so far this season but you are another lurking in the background on matchdays just behind the technical area. And, finally, Kalifa Cisse [good player IMHO] is another in our coaching bubble creating that overcrowded look near the technical area. IIRC his multi-linguistic ability is what brought him onto the staff. I wish he was used as a coach more and then we might see our midfield benefit from his silky skills rather than explaining to Fam, HNM & Nagy how to order in English order a Nando's takeaway from Deliveroo. Nah, too many cooks, just like our midfield [when all fit] - quantity over quality. One final point on Deano and its not his fault. When he came on board in November 2016 we had picked up 30 points from our first 17 league games - not bad. His first game was a Saturday teatime game against Brighton. For this one he was sat just in front of me at the back of the Lansdown. I remember thinking at the end of the game that his addition augers well for the future - including that game we went on to lose 9 of the next 10 in the league!!! Streaky Lee was born or was the coaching dynamic altered by the addition of our nice human such that two's company, three's a crowd! Teams increasingly have large numbers of coaching staff these days so I don't think we're unusual. I also think - and this is just a general opinion, not specifically me saying it applies to City - that the numbers are less important than how the system actually works. If you're got six coaches, everyone knows their job, lines of communication work well and the structure is clear then it will work. If you've got six coaches and there's confusion over who's doing what, people don't really talk to each other and key information keeps getting missed than it won't work. Within that, I actually don't want the assistants to be doing much on match day. You don't want three different people shouting instructions. As long as they're observing and giving feedback to Holden, that would be doing their jobs. I actually don't think our problems necessarily lie in the number of coaches. It's easy to mention injuries and I don't think we've often had the right combinations of players available at the right times but I also think the two major areas for me are that the 4-4-2 isn't working away from home and we need to try something else and that, when we do start badly, it's taking a bit too long to make changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View from the Dolman Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 Absolute conspiracy theory waffle. I must be imagining Stuart Naylor, Alan Walsh, David Coles, Lee Kendall, Rhys Carr all featuring in the technical area in not so distant times. And probably others I can't immediately recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weepywall Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 Not sure if we have got too many coaches, but I do wonder if they are any good ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headhunter Posted January 31, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 12 minutes ago, bristolcitysweden said: Is Cisse still at the club? Don't think so. Yes he is as this relatively recent post from the website shows: https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/in-my-words-kalifa-cissé/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headhunter Posted January 31, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 7 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said: Absolute conspiracy theory waffle. I must be imagining Stuart Naylor, Alan Walsh, David Coles, Lee Kendall, Rhys Carr all featuring in the technical area in not so distant times. And probably others I can't immediately recall. No conspiracy theory intended with my comment, just remarking on numbers and quality/experience Referring to your list, Naylor, Coles & Kendall were all goalkeeping coaches whilst Carr was, as per his LinkedIn profile, 1st Team Development/Conditioning Coach so if you are going to add him in then so too must I to those involved at present. As for Walsh - legend so he can do what he wants! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abraham Romanovich Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 3 minutes ago, weepywall said: Not sure if we have got too many coaches, but I do wonder if they are any good ! I'd like to know on what they are judged, is there some kind of benchmark one would hope results. I know for the purists this is simplistic but if they can improve the players on an individual basis it is not unreasonable to expect performances on the pitch to improve and as a result more matches are won. Our 2 ex England coaches have contributed what exactly ? How have City improved since this joint appointment ? As others have noted it all seems a bit like the emperors new clothes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 Absolutely ****ing laughable thread with many mistakes just as another attempt to take a shot at the club All clubs have multiple backroom staff members just watch any game on tv to see how many staff members are sat in the dug out or in the technical area to know this. Pat Mountain is the GK coach, Rene is the u23's assistant coach, so of course Mountain is in the technical area on match days Cisse does work as a coach in training with players, his ability to speak other languages is a side benefit of him being at the club. Hired by Johnson, having been here as players together (trend with LJ hiring people you know) but you think Holden would have kept him around if he didn't want to? Simpson and Downing were hired for a period in mind longer than just this season, so longer than the effect of a COVID hit season where we don't have much time in training to develop players, they also haven't had a pre-season to work with players either. What exactly are you expecting to see from Downing and Simpson? They talk to Holden during games already. You list Johnson and McAllister.... leaving out Holden and the principle of 2 assistants during LJ's most successful period at the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 33 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said: Teams increasingly have large numbers of coaching staff these days so I don't think we're unusual. I also think - and this is just a general opinion, not specifically me saying it applies to City - that the numbers are less important than how the system actually works. If you're got six coaches, everyone knows their job, lines of communication work well and the structure is clear then it will work. If you've got six coaches and there's confusion over who's doing what, people don't really talk to each other and key information keeps getting missed than it won't work. Within that, I actually don't want the assistants to be doing much on match day. You don't want three different people shouting instructions. As long as they're observing and giving feedback to Holden, that would be doing their jobs. I actually don't think our problems necessarily lie in the number of coaches. It's easy to mention injuries and I don't think we've often had the right combinations of players available at the right times but I also think the two major areas for me are that the 4-4-2 isn't working away from home and we need to try something else and that, when we do start badly, it's taking a bit too long to make changes. Numbers of coaches are very important because it increases the ball rolling time for each player, the repetition and the time spent on working on individual and collective aims. Bristol City were formerly bringing in under Mr Johnson coaches temporarily to work with players in units defenders etc .. Many teams work through training in periodized chunks as it in theory cuts down on miscommunication and promotes deeper understanding. There should be no confusion of what coaches are working on and how because the Head coach/Manager oversees tasks and topics. There can't be an excuse here, there is ultimately one person responsible to oversee the efficiency of coaching, its success is the reflection of the person leading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prinny Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 54 minutes ago, headhunter said: From my limited view I can see nothing coming from our two experienced hires on matchday when they stand on the touchline, cross armed behind Deano. I see Simpson in the technical area quite a bit so I'm not sure if the initial premise is true. The point of the hiring of Simpson and Downing to me was when we had multiple teams on the same site at the new training facility , is that you could have coaches who have been in charge of England youth teams, go coach. Go develop players. That actually leads to a more coherent strategy between youth and first teams, both in player development and tactically as you have the same guys coaching across the levels. With covid as said in the interview we're in a constant cycle of rest and recovery with not much coaching, so I'm not sure their impact is being felt. Are they any good? It's hard to tell with coaches, unless you see their rubbish coaching drills! j/k Do you want 6 people in the technical area all shouting at the players? Did you want O'Driscoll to jump up and down more? Or really, is this thread born out of a frustration that you don't know what they do, and when you're confused you get angry? Just ask Gregor to ask what the coaches responsibilities are on matchdays if you want to know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Red Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 Absolutely classic "I don't know or understand what these people do therefore they must be a big problem". We had it when Holden first joined LJ's staff too. I get that it's open season on everything at the club at the moment, but come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLRed Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 Too many pan washers pretending to be chefs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!james Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 It's like when people rate managers like Di Canio because they jump up and down and shout a lot on the touchline, that's 'passion'. Embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperRed Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 I appreciate the nature of this season has meant that the coaches have not had as much time on the grass with the players as they’d like, but that’s the same for every team, and we do not look like a team who have been “coached” at all. I never got carried away with the appointment of two “England” coaches. Two blokes who are supposedly good coaches yet they were in roles where they hardly did any coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 Too many cooks but no Paul Cook. What a cook-up ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DT The Optimist Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 Some interesting points, a guy I work with is a keen shrew fan...when I was crowing about us getting Simpson from the FA he laughed and said he was the manager of Shrewsbury....and did not last long. I also think some good points raised about sheer numbers of coaches, however Cisse must have a cracking job as an interpreter unless anyone tells me otherwise. Was a good player for us in his time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wild Bunch Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 1 hour ago, weepywall said: Not sure if we have got too many coaches, but I do wonder if they are any good ! Agree. It’s the quality I’m concerned about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headhunter Posted January 31, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 42 minutes ago, Prinny said: Or really, is this thread born out of a frustration that you don't know what they do, and when you're confused you get angry? Just ask Gregor to ask what the coaches responsibilities are on matchdays if you want to know! Yes, not afraid to admit that and venting on here and FBC helps relieve the tension of not being able to do something that has been part of my life for over 50 years - going to watch BCFC home & away, cheering & moaning in equal measure. Clearly some taking a pop at me for finding "another reason to crticise the club" are joyously happy about the standard of performance that is being served up because I certainly am NOT! Losing yesterday was not the issue for me, it was the performance which would be in a Top 10 of similar displays over the past 3 years. If we had lost 2-1 but put in a committed display, yes I might have berated the ref for a match changing wrong decision, a striker for missing a chance to equalise or a defender's error contributing to the winning goal but I wouldn't feel like I feel now. I can remember a night game at WBA Sept 2018 when we lost 4-2. We were 3-0 down in 30 minutes but we got back to 3-1 and pushing for a 2nd before conceding a 4th. The 2nd game came shortly after but it was a cracking game and i walked away from the Hawthorns disappointed we had lost but knowing we had tried our best against a better side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 6 minutes ago, headhunter said: Clearly some taking a pop at me for finding "another reason to crticise the club" are joyously happy about the standard of performance that is being served up because I certainly am NOT! I'm happy the club isn't facing the risk of relegation in a financially disastrous time, personally I'm prepared to accept a season of bad football if it means the club is still in the championship and we're in a position to compete when we're back to full income streams. This season I'd much rather be where we are then playing attractive football but potentially only several points above the drop zone having to look over our shoulder worrying about the risk of relegation if we went on a bad run. Clubs don't always get promotion by playing good football, you think Cardiff fans enjoyed Warnock's team? The ones I know accepted what they were getting from him if it meant promotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 22 minutes ago, Lrrr said: I'm happy the club isn't facing the risk of relegation in a financially disastrous time, personally I'm prepared to accept a season of bad football if it means the club is still in the championship and we're in a position to compete when we're back to full income streams. This season I'd much rather be where we are then playing attractive football but potentially only several points above the drop zone having to look over our shoulder worrying about the risk of relegation if we went on a bad run. Clubs don't always get promotion by playing good football, you think Cardiff fans enjoyed Warnock's team? The ones I know accepted what they were getting from him if it meant promotion. It looks like a “very big if” though. I enjoyed watching Cardiff, I found them exciting, they got balls into the box, they created chances, they were physical, committed etc. They played to a plan, and executed it. I think too many of us have been conned into thinking Barcelona / Man City = what fans want. I find some of their games incredibly boring. I’d love it if City played yesterday like Cardiff did that season. Don’t be another football snob! I bet Cardiff fans did enjoy it too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 3 minutes ago, Davefevs said: It looks like a “very big if” though. I enjoyed watching Cardiff, I found them exciting, they got balls into the box, they created chances, they were physical, committed etc. They played to a plan, and executed it. I think too many of us have been conned into thinking Barcelona / Man City = what fans want. I find some of their games incredibly boring. I’d love it if City played yesterday like Cardiff did that season. Don’t be another football snob! I bet Cardiff fans did enjoy it too! Not saying I expect us to play like Man City or Barca, heck not even attempt to because that's just another level where you need to be one of the best teams in leagues. Holden's initial football was good to watch and I'd take it gladly. Just find it funny people expect a manager whose lost more than half a dozen first XI players for a good half a season at any one time (seemingly 2 of his preferred 3 in midfield are yet to play a game) to still be able to play good football where the aim is to come away with something. Dean's future at City is based around this season, a season of playing attractive football but a lower half finish and he probably gets told thanks but no thanks, finishing top 10 given everything thats happened probably buys him another season at least. Yesterday was awful no getting around it and Dean said as much after the game so I wouldn't look at that in isolation, I'd look at what our response is playing a Brentford team high on confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headhunter Posted January 31, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, Davefevs said: It looks like a “very big if” though. I enjoyed watching Cardiff, I found them exciting, they got balls into the box, they created chances, they were physical, committed etc. They played to a plan, and executed it. I think too many of us have been conned into thinking Barcelona / Man City = what fans want. I find some of their games incredibly boring. I’d love it if City played yesterday like Cardiff did that season. Don’t be another football snob! I bet Cardiff fans did enjoy it too! Agree - it is a style of play that is effective not pretty. We have no style of play. To quote LRR: "personally I'm prepared to accept a season of bad football if it means the club is still in the championship and we're in a position to compete when we're back to full income streams". What have full income streams got to do with putting us in a position to compete? Holden, like LJ, has been backed in the transfer market. If, say, we ended the last 6 games of the season with this line up Bentley/ Sessegnon, Kalas, Mawson, Dasilva / Wiliams, Walsh, Palmer, Lansbury / Fam, Wells and put in a performance like most of the Huddersfield game and all of yesterday would you be blaming the players or the coaching. Time will tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Northern Red said: Absolutely classic "I don't know or understand what these people do therefore they must be a big problem". We had it when Holden first joined LJ's staff too. I get that it's open season on everything at the club at the moment, but come on. Exactly. Absolute nonsense. I’m amazed how often apparently rational posters go along with it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltons Army Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 The interesting q for me , ( and I don’t think @headhunters question is unreasonable ) so some of the derision is interesting Simpson , Downing seem like decent blokes and I’m sure are trying to follow DHs wishes and plan at any point , as mixed messages create confusion But what I’d be more interested in is do they all have a similar playing philosophy and the ability to coach it to the maximum ? Coaches all go through the same courses , but ultimately are individuals , and all have their own ideas and ethos, and generally will coach the system and ethos that they have interest in , and believe in , at a better level I don’t believe you can specialise in multiple systems I have absolutely no idea of Simpson or Downing’s ethos and no reason to doubt they are performing as well as they can For me whether it applies to LJ and his two coaches or DH and his , coaches should be recruited as carefully , to sync , as players should be in a decent recruitment plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1t_ref_again Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 Yes they are stealing a living if that's what they call coaching...........sorry thought it said crooks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havanatopia Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 I have no idea what all these coaches do other than the very basic we are told or is available on the web site. Most modern day coaches have at least 2 assistants from the very top to lower league. It seems it is the order of the day, for better or worse who knows, but if your competition does it and every other club piles in you perhaps feel left behind and out of date if you don't follow tout sweet. You would have to say Downing and Simpson joining when Dean got the main gig was probably of greater comfort than just one assistant for most of us albeit we only knew the guys' pedigree from young England players which was undoubtedly good. It is a very different thing coaching seasoned professionals though and I might add that with the average age of the City squad increasing quite substantially since their arrival it begs the question 'is this really their bailiwick' ? Cisse and others? it does make one think if decision by committee sometimes gets in the way of a better strategy. That said, Dean probably feels more comfortable with such a structure being a relative newbie but being currently 10th in the table suggests we are no further forward than the first full year of Lee Johnson. I continue to reflect on the BCFC owner consistently implementing this experience lacking coaching methodology given the massive disparity of prize money between the Premier League and the Championship; 120 million and 3 million give or take. One day I hope to understand it but for now it puzzles me yearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Cyril Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 I had no idea we had so many coaches. When did Peter Carol get binned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City1970 Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 9 hours ago, headhunter said: Yes he is as this relatively recent post from the website shows: https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/in-my-words-kalifa-cissé/ Get him in the midfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 It's not possible to have too many coaches. We all learn something new every day of our lives. Footballers are not different to the rest of humanity. However, so long as they are managed correctly and that none ever try to undermine the number one, all views/opinions are valid. And that is where the Head Coach must be strong by ensuring that nobody seeks to undermine his decisions. Football has changed a lot since clubs only had a manager and trainer. Attack, defence and goalkeepers etc. If only we also had a throw in coach, we might be able to keep the bloody ball for some time after our throws! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.