As the dust settles

[Ivorguy]

As the dust settles on last night ’s game and we can be a little more objective, would it be fair to say, given injuries, that we are still a long way off being a promotion side?

The question is does the club have a viable plan to advance from where we are to where they say they want to be?  Failure to recruit a specialist left back in the window is a clear indication that they are not prepared to take the necessary actions, presumably because they have parked ambitions for this season.

[Fordy62]

5 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

As the dust settles on last night ’s game and we can be a little more objective, would it be fair to say, given injuries, that we are still a long way off being a promotion side?

The question is does the club have a viable plan to advance from where we are to where they say they want to be?  Failure to recruit a specialist left back in the window is a clear indication that they are not prepared to take the necessary actions, presumably because they have parked ambitions for this season.

I think we’re only a good head coach away from promotion. Trouble is, we’ve been that for about 4 and a half years. 

Agree @ReggyRed?

[TomThumb84]

Yes is the broad answer. We are a long way off from being a promotion side.

The question being: When did our ambitions change for the season, and how was this allowed to happen?

I always was under the impression that Lee Johnson was sacked in order for the club to push on to a top 6 finish, and after a lengthy 6 week protracted search for a new manager, Dean Holden was the stand-out candidate to achieve that.

At what point will we stand up and say “Actually, what with Covid, injuries, recruitment not being great, Dean Holden has done ok, being the only man who would take the job on our terms, and ultimately we are happy to stay in the division.”?

[Lrrr]

7 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

As the dust settles on last night ’s game and we can be a little more objective, would it be fair to say, given injuries, that we are still a long way off being a promotion side?

The question is does the club have a viable plan to advance from where we are to where they say they want to be?  Failure to recruit a specialist left back in the window is a clear indication that they are not prepared to take the necessary actions, presumably because they have parked ambitions for this season.

Automatic certainly, Norwich, Brentford and Swansea just too good to keep up with over a longer period. Play offs purely comes down to if teams can maintain momentum, looking at the picture you can see barely anyone is in form and we actually picked up the 2nd most points in that period when we played Brentford, Derby (form team), Huddersfield (3 points regardless of performance), Norwich and Preston. Not an easy run of games there, its not like we've had 5 bottom half teams. 

I think the left back criticism is hard without knowing all the facts, we can speculate all we want but we don't know how many left backs we talked to clubs about, quite possibly there weren't any we thought were any better than Rowe (who was fit until the last couple of days) and Holden saying he's got good hopes for Nurse (Post article). We probably also had limited options for how much we could add to our wage bill in January and perhaps we wanted to focus it on Lansbury. If not a loan then we already have 4 senior left backs at the club, already looking ahead to next season something has to happen there.

[Wiltshire robin]

13 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I think we’re only a good head coach away from promotion. Trouble is, we’ve been that for about 4 and a half years. 

Agree @ReggyRed?

It amazes me that someone who built a billion pound business from the ground is so incapable of decent recruitment. I bet when they employed managers at lansdown and Hargreaves they weren’t inexperienced people who they would take a gamble on 

[TomThumb84]

15 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Automatic certainly, Norwich, Brentford and Swansea just too good to keep up with over a longer period. Play offs purely comes down to if teams can maintain momentum, looking at the picture you can see barely anyone is in form and we actually picked up the 2nd most points in that period when we played Brentford, Derby (form team), Huddersfield (3 points regardless of performance), Norwich and Preston. Not an easy run of games there, its not like we've had 5 bottom half teams. 

I think the left back criticism is hard without knowing all the facts, we can speculate all we want but we don't know how many left backs we talked to clubs about, quite possibly there weren't any we thought were any better than Rowe (who was fit until the last couple of days) and Holden saying he's got good hopes for Nurse (Post article). We probably also had limited options for how much we could add to our wage bill in January and perhaps we wanted to focus it on Lansbury. If not a loan then we already have 4 senior left backs at the club, already looking ahead to next season something has to happen there.

Dean Holden has high hopes for all of our youth players and Under 23’s as does his assistants who have come from coaching at U-20’s level with the England set-up.

I would be looking for us to either recruit a few tried and tested mid to late 20’s players, and have a blend as all successful sides do at this level or use what we have accumulated and recruited better.

I worry at the moment that we are throwing a few of our kids in hoping for a surprise success and not getting the best out of expensive seasoned pro’s at the club as we have no idea how to collectively coach them and get their buy-in.

Not sure anyone would have believed you if you had told them we would be going to Brentford this season with Edwards on one flank, and Zak Vyner anchoring our midfield, with a fully fit Kasey Palmer and Nahki Wells getting cold on our bench.

[Sturny]

Like we saw last night our players can match a automatic promotion squad. But to keep that up for the entire 90 minutes....  

I think to hit top 6 now will rely heavily on returning players hitting the show straight away and teams around us dropping off. Sounds similar to the past 3 years doesn’t it? 

if you were to ask me straight if keeping DH is our best chance of hitting top 6 I’d say no. It’s possible, but likely? Idk 

 

[Llama0]

23 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I think we’re only a good head coach away from promotion. Trouble is, we’ve been that for about 4 and a half years. 

Agree @ReggyRed?

Damn @ReggyRed really does live rent free in your head doesn't he.

[Dr Balls]

3 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Like we saw last night our players can match a automatic promotion squad. But to keep that up for the entire 90 minutes....  

I think to hit top 6 now will rely heavily on returning players hitting the show straight away and teams around us dropping off. Sounds similar to the past 3 years doesn’t it? 

Yep. It didn’t happen then and it’s not going to happen this season either!

[westonred]

I believe we need a new manager even with the most gifted squad the club has probably ever had DH doesn't seem to get the best out of them tactically

If i was SL i would want to know why the club didn't bring in a natural LB in the window it was always a possibility that Rowe could be out for a while to not get back up in was a crime. I'm sick of hearing that a player needs to have the right DNA to sign for us, well the right DNA for a LB should be he can defend, tackle and use his left foot.

Too many injuries Why ?? this needs to be investigated also 2 players have come back fully fit from 6 months at other clubs back here a fortnight and they're injured. A  total of 16 players are out now that is crazy.. 

Too many back staff we don't need Pat Mountain Rene Gilmartin Mark Ashton could all be released and get JL to step up and do MA's job

I would love a good clear out in the summer (not personally :))  and bring in someone like Eddie Howe with 11 players OOC he could pick and choose who he wanted to keep (not who Ashton wants) and would be able to rebuild the team virtually from scratch

 

[Finley_Smith10]

I just hope Holden was only hired due to Covid and that once everything is over we’ll have a proper go at it.

[Sturny]

29 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I think we’re only a good head coach away from promotion. Trouble is, we’ve been that for about 4 and a half years. 

Agree @ReggyRed?

Worries me that if SL hasn't learnt that by now, when will he? After DH there's surely no more room for nepotism. It surely has to be the next logical option! 

[Lrrr]

4 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

Dean Holden has high hopes for all of our youth players and Under 23’s as does his assistants who have come from coaching at U-20’s level with the England set-up.

I would be looking for us to either recruit a few tried and tested mid to late 20’s players, and have a blend as all successful sides do at this level or use what we have accumulated and recruited better.

I worry at the moment that we are throwing a few of our kids in hoping for a surprise success and not getting the best out of expensive seasoned pro’s at the club as we have no idea how to collectively coach them and get their buy-in.

Not sure anyone would have believed you if you had told them we would be going to Brentford this season with Edwards on one flank, and Zak Vyner anchoring our midfield.

But how many senior pros do you have for one position? We have Jay Dasilva and Tommy Rowe (if you look at his stats for last season he compared well against championship LB's) at LB, we then have the blend of Pring, Nurse etc. If you're talking about loaning in a LB in January then until the last few days of the window we had Rowe fit with Nurse a few weeks away, at that point its a question of can we bring in anyone who makes us better rather than needing the body. By the time Rowe is injured how many LB's are available who would be at the standard we require that are actually available? It probably isn't a long list. If you're talking permanent then you're adding to the 4 players you already have in that one position, I'm assuming Pring is expected to make the step up to back up for next season like O'Leary to Bentley, is Dasilva stays fit where does that leave another left back. 

 

[TomThumb84]

2 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

But how many senior pros do you have for one position? We have Jay Dasilva and Tommy Rowe (if you look at his stats for last season he compared well against championship LB's) at LB, we then have the blend of Pring, Nurse etc. If you're talking about loaning in a LB in January then until the last few days of the window we had Rowe fit with Nurse a few weeks away, at that point its a question of can we bring in anyone who makes us better rather than needing the body. By the time Rowe is injured how many LB's are available who would be at the standard we require that are actually available? It probably isn't a long list. If you're talking permanent then you're adding to the 4 players you already have in that one position, I'm assuming Pring is expected to make the step up to back up for next season like O'Leary to Bentley, is Dasilva stays fit where does that leave another left back. 

 

Surely we could have got a loan? We had one fit left back going into January that was deemed good enough at the start of the season.

Appreciate Pring and Nurse CAN play there but with respect to them neither could be considered a squad player for a side pushing for a Top 6 Championship finish. We proved that ourselves by loaning them out in the first place.

Tommy Rowe has done us proud there but not sure he was signed to be playing week in week out down the left either.

[Sir Geoff]

As the dust settles is there anyone that thinks DH has done better than LJ would have so far this season. Top 10, -2 gd and plying crap football. Wish someone from within the club could answer what the point was of sacking LJ to replace him with this crock of .....

[Lrrr]

1 minute ago, TomThumb84 said:

Surely we could have got a loan? We had one fit left back going into January that was deemed good enough at the start of the season.

Appreciate Pring and Nurse CAN play there but with respect to them neither could be considered a squad player for a side pushing for a Top 6 Championship finish. We proved that ourselves by loaning them out in the first place.

Tommy Rowe has done us proud there but not sure he was signed to be playing week in week out down the left either.

Comes back to who was available and my comment on it being hard to criticise without knowing all the facts, how far down a list of potential left backs do you go before its just not worth bringing the person in? Do we want to risk adding a few hundred thousand to our wage bill between now and the end of the season? Its difficult 

[TomThumb84]

Just now, Lrrr said:

Comes back to who was available and my comment on it being hard to criticise without knowing all the facts, how far down a list of potential left backs do you go before its just not worth bringing the person in? Do we want to risk adding a few hundred thousand to our wage bill between now and the end of the season? Its difficult 

Depends what your ambitions are does it not? Few hundred thousand to get Top 6? Yes please.

[Lrrr]

Just now, TomThumb84 said:

Depends what your ambitions are does it not? Few hundred thousand to get Top 6? Yes please.

Its hardly a guarantee though, just because a left back may be available though doesn't mean its a left back who suits how we'd want them to play in our system, how many weeks does it take for them to get up to speed? 

[Alessandro]

I personally don’t take much from the ‘positive’ of matching Brentford for 45 minutes.

A game is 90, and we’ve probably managed one 90 performance all season.

Last night, as with so so many other games this season, we can ‘match’ someone for 10,15,30 minutes, but as soon as they change tactic or find another gear, we just get dominated time after time.

On occasions, like Forest or Huddersfield, we rely on last ditch defending and/or a moment of quality up top - to hold on to or nick the win.

Meet a team with real quality, like last night or Norwich (or anyone in the top 6 pretty much), it’s game over. 

[TomThumb84]

4 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Its hardly a guarantee though, just because a left back may be available though doesn't mean its a left back who suits how we'd want them to play in our system, how many weeks does it take for them to get up to speed? 

Nothings a guarantee is it?

You make decisions based on ability, experience, knowledge and data available to you to make informed and educated predictions of what might happen using the resources available in order to give yourself the best chance of reaching your objective.

It’s simplistic but true in any business or team.

We haven’t and don’t do the above due to key stakeholders involved in making decisions and then implementing them.

[Lrrr]

Just now, TomThumb84 said:

Nothings a guarantee is it?

You make decisions based on ability, experience, knowledge and data available to you to make informed and educated decisions with the resources available in order to give yourself the best chance of reaching your objective.

It’s simplistic but true in any business or team.

We haven’t and don’t do the above due to key stakeholders involved in making decisions and then implementing them.

And the decision was seemingly anyone we could have brought in on loan or otherwise in January wouldn't of been of a high enough quality to be worth the making the move.

[Ska Junkie]

16 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Worries me that if SL hasn't learnt that by now, when will he? After DH there's surely no more room for nepotism. It surely has to be the next logical option! 

I agree totally with the sentiment Sturny but doesn't SL employ a CEO to run the club and pay him very handsomely to carry out that task? While I think there was a romantic nepotism about LJ's appointment, wouldn't SL take the word of his highly paid executive over the best option? That's what his CEO is paid for to be fair, so I don't hold SL responsible TBH. The CEO on the other hand is most certainly culpable. 

[Bar BS3]

55 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

As the dust settles on last night ’s game and we can be a little more objective, would it be fair to say, given injuries, that we are still a long way off being a promotion side?

The question is does the club have a viable plan to advance from where we are to where they say they want to be?  Failure to recruit a specialist left back in the window is a clear indication that they are not prepared to take the necessary actions, presumably because they have parked ambitions for this season.

Given the injuries, no, I don't think we are anywhere near a top 6 side. Certainly over a consistent period. 

With a fully fit squad, I think we'd have a decent crack at a top 6 finish. 

[TomThumb84]

1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

And the decision was seemingly anyone we could have brought in on loan or otherwise in January wouldn't of been of a high enough quality to be worth the making the move.

*That we knew about based on our scouting network.

[Fordy62]

39 minutes ago, Llama0 said:

Damn @ReggyRed really does live rent free in your head doesn't he.

Never seen you two in the same room at the same time come to think of it...

[steviestevieneville]

1 hour ago, Fordy62 said:

I think we’re only a good head coach away from promotion. Trouble is, we’ve been that for about 4 and a half years. 

Agree @ReggyRed?

A good head coach, director of football, quality scouting & recruitment away from promotion imo. Even with everyone fit , I don’t believe we’re anywhere near good enough 

[steviestevieneville]

17 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

I agree totally with the sentiment Sturny but doesn't SL employ a CEO to run the club and pay him very handsomely to carry out that task? While I think there was a romantic nepotism about LJ's appointment, wouldn't SL take the word of his highly paid executive over the best option? That's what his CEO is paid for to be fair, so I don't hold SL responsible TBH. The CEO on the other hand is most certainly culpable. 

But isn’t it down to SL  to ask & put pressure on him regarding recruitment at the very least . He’s got all the facts & figures that basically say he’s wasted millions . The sale of Webster & brownhil have massively papered over the cracks. All other good sales , Bobby, joe, Lloyd were already at the club when he got here. I’m amazed he hasn’t been sacked for it . 

[slartibartfast]

53 minutes ago, Wiltshire robin said:

It amazes me that someone who built a billion pound business from the ground is so incapable of decent recruitment. I bet when they employed managers at lansdown and Hargreaves they weren’t inexperienced people who they would take a gamble on 

Yes, "hey tea-boy, would you like to become our account executive, I've just sacked the other one, he was rubbish !"

[slartibartfast]

52 minutes ago, westonred said:

I believe we need a new manager even with the most gifted squad the club has probably ever had DH doesn't seem to get the best out of them tactically

If i was SL i would want to know why the club didn't bring in a natural LB in the window it was always a possibility that Rowe could be out for a while to not get back up in was a crime. I'm sick of hearing that a player needs to have the right DNA to sign for us, well the right DNA for a LB should be he can defend, tackle and use his left foot.

Too many injuries Why ?? this needs to be investigated also 2 players have come back fully fit from 6 months at other clubs back here a fortnight and they're injured. A  total of 16 players are out now that is crazy.. 

Too many back staff we don't need Pat Mountain Rene Gilmartin Mark Ashton could all be released and get JL to step up and do MA's job

 

 

H god, no !         "Dad, I've messed it up again !"

[Ska Junkie]

15 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

But isn’t it down to SL  to ask & put pressure on him regarding recruitment at the very least . He’s got all the facts & figures that basically say he’s wasted millions . The sale of Webster & brownhil have massively papered over the cracks. All other good sales , Bobby, joe, Lloyd were already at the club when he got here. I’m amazed he hasn’t been sacked for it . 

Absolutely ssn. He should be asking some seriously awkward questions TBH.