Covid and injuries showing how we can trust our youngsters

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, marmite said:

Put yourself in the position of an academy youngster. You sign for your home club academy. You develop, go out on loan, return and eventually creep into the first team squad. You get 15 mins here and there and then the dream. A first team start.  You obviously want to stay and get promoted with us but we are mid table. A prem club comes calling and offer to treble your wages although you know you wont get 1st team football.  MA will want to sell you cos its cash in, thats his job. Here is the dilemma of playing our academy. 

Yep.  What you’re replaying is what’s happened historically.  This is why not just for academy graduates like Kelly, but players like Brownhill, you have to keep moving the club forward, otherwise they see their futures elsewhere.

Of course I can spilt lots of theoretical strategies, but it needs key measures of success (assuming you get the right strategy) and quick remediation when you run off-track.

[marmite]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep.  What you’re replaying is what’s happened historically.  This is why not just for academy graduates like Kelly, but players like Brownhill, you have to keep moving the club forward, otherwise they see their futures elsewhere.

Of course I can spilt lots of theoretical strategies, but it needs key measures of success (assuming you get the right strategy) quick remediation when you run off-track

Something we are not very good at!

[Cowshed]

On 12/02/2021 at 09:23, Phileas Fogg said:

Agreed. Good points above. It’s a lovely idea, but I think in reality supporters would grow tired of it.

I can understand the appeal - we’ve got a lopsided squad of players. Some of them look disinterested. We have no playing identity, random tactics, a manager who looks out of his depth and a deeply unpopular CEO in Ashton. Having 11 honest academy local lads playing for the shirt and giving their all looks attractive compared to that, even if league finishes aren’t as strong.

It’s been done to death but Brentford have the blueprint for creating a competitive side without parachute payments. What Brentford seem to do better than us is pull the trigger on ‘gambles’ (ie Toney, Watkins) and get them right. We seem to dither and either the similar type signings don’t live up to initial expectation (O’Dowda for example) or we miss them completely from under our nose (Watkins, Bowen).

That said, it’s easy for the grass to look greener. I suspect several clubs we compete with had admiration for the way we bought Brownhill along. He’s quite a Brentford type signing.

The other factor is London. For many young players, English or international, living in London is far more aspirational than Bristol. That gives Brentford tremendous pulling power.

Gone off on a bit of a tangent here - but in summary, I think a team of well scouted players with potential (ala Brentford) supplemented with youth/academy players (Vyner, Semenyo) is probably the way to go. Our academy is getting there - it’s our recruitment and recruitment identity that needs work.

You have a BCFC here. 

On 12/02/2021 at 08:51, Davefevs said:

Think you’ve hit the nail on the head, all about expectations, patience and progression....and then communication of strategy.

In essence what is the Strategy?  Because as i sit here today I have no idea.  What we have been told in the past is lip service, because it hasn’t been followed.

Some fans will always be tired of something - Some just want wins and it does not matter how those wins are achieved. 

Having an obvious strategy and club identity on and off the pitch provides something  for fans to buy into and frequently be proud of versus we’ve got a lopsided squad of players. Some of them look disinterested. We have no playing identity, random tactics, a manager who looks out of his depth and a deeply unpopular CEO in Ashton. I agree with some of the points there and couldn't point to a joined up plan for the FC for years. Bristol City are a bit of this and that and developments in the future e.g. Training facilities are the club playing catch up and meeting general standards - BCFC will not be top class here. Bristol City's academy is ranked 35th in regards to its efficiency (producing players). The club ignores the gold standards of Southampton. BCFC have no regional coaching and scouting network. Exeter City have a larger regional coaching network over Cornwall, Devon and Somerset. Moving the academy to Failand does not cure the insular nature of Bristol City's academy.  

Its a forum. A little no limits thinking. Football in this Country has undergone a tactical revolution and a technical revolution. Its without doubt that the likes of  Guardiola, Klopp , Bielsa, Pochettino, Wenger etc have helped to change thinking in this Country. Their principles filter through football. Bristol City are not part of this progression. BCFC learn a little, make some noises, change their mind, do something else and are now being left behind by Brentford. Bristol City can be the club of the region by marrying itself to modern methodology. A progressive football club with a regional coaching and scouting network dwarfing the mighty Exeter City, coaching, development and recruitment that follows the obvious consistent European model where you coach, develop, educate and recruit to a playing identity with its values and standards year upon year. A proud regional BCFC not a parochial insular mundane BCFC. 

[Better Red]

It’s not the pathway.

Its that the kids coming through are not better than the players we can sign for smallish transfer fees.

I get that’s an unpopular view but it is the case.

At best they are squad players.

’None’ of them are better players than we can afford at pretty small fees. 

They are not really improving the team. Don’t forget we are a bang average team.

Seymenyo better than COD ? (Nothing in it)

Massengo/Bakinson better than Williams ? (Dont think so)

Vyner better that Hunt ? ( Just about)

Taylor M better that Marriapa ( nothing in it)

O’Leary better than Bentley (No chance)

Towler better than JD (No)

The hype and the want of fans for ‘academy’ players just does not reflect the reality.

Edwards is the one that could be a player that does become that player we are looking for but a long way to go.

 

 

[Spike]

My issue with so much youth is that no team of mostly youth has ever really stood out with the exception of Manchester United under Fergie and even then they had older players who led them. 

Looking at our squad I can't name a single leader on the pitch, not one. Kalas could be that man but he seems to be more of a follower than a leader, he just doesn't take charge. Then you have Bentley, but again he's not a leader either, he's a game changer at times but when he's off he can be costly and needs to be focused on his own duties, not leading the team. You could argue Baker, but he's injured more than he's fit and a leader needs to be on the pitch most games. 

The only other consistent squad members would be Vyner (still developing and doesn't look like a leader in the pitch), Moore, who could very well be a leader in the future thanks to his determination and heart but has the issue of being very raw at a point where he should be starting to look consistent and maybe Nagy but he seems to be inconsistent and not a natural leader either. 

I think our key issues is that whilst our youth system may be good it's the bringing the players into the main team that is the real stumbling block as we have no real consistent formation, we have no leader on the pitch to guide them and our manager is inexperienced and therefore unable to really develop them in a way that they'll antidote benefit from game time. 

It all comes back to the manager appointment imo, Holden may mean well and be a nice guy but the top teams all have experienced managers who can define a gameplan and implement it which allows young players to grow into the team. Vyner is being moved about, Massengo is used sporadically and in different ways, Moore is in one week, out the next so when he makes mistakes the fans blame him despite him never getting any real time in a settled formation etc

The injuries may help in getting the lads game time but it's also pointless when the players have no consistency in tactics, no leadership on the pitch and nothing but a lack of experience off of it. 

We need a new manager who has experience, can get the best out of players by introducing them into a settled system and isn't still learning himself. 

To sum up the transition of youth player to squad member at this club as it currently is would be the blind leading the blind. An inexperienced manager with underutilised players trying to teach the youth how to make the next big step... 

[Davefevs]

@Spike I think had Williams been fit he may well have been our captain.

[Lrrr]

1 hour ago, Better Red said:

It’s not the pathway.

Its that the kids coming through are not better than the players we can sign for smallish transfer fees.

I get that’s an unpopular view but it is the case.

At best they are squad players.

’None’ of them are better players than we can afford at pretty small fees. 

They are not really improving the team. Don’t forget we are a bang average team.

Seymenyo better than COD ? (Nothing in it)

Massengo/Bakinson better than Williams ? (Dont think so)

Vyner better that Hunt ? ( Just about)

Taylor M better that Marriapa ( nothing in it)

O’Leary better than Bentley (No chance)

Towler better than JD (No)

The hype and the want of fans for ‘academy’ players just does not reflect the reality.

Edwards is the one that could be a player that does become that player we are looking for but a long way to go.

 

 

But thats it isn't it and its a good thing. The academy is there to provide players so that (in a sense) the club doesn't have to go out and buy someone in the position you're listing players, Antoine being as good as O'Dowda means we haven't had to buy someone for the role Antoine is doing, is Max good enough as a championship number 2? Yes, so we haven't had to bring someone in for that role who'd probably be on bigger wages. Vyner being as good as Hunt means we have a second choice RB at the club and haven't had to recruit another one, the only reason Mariappa has been playing RB is because of how well Zak was playing at CB and in midfield and the only reason Mariappa came in was due to the injury crisis which isn't due to the quality of academy player. If the player moves on to be a 1st team regular and first choice then great but the players are saving the club from significant expenditure to bring in other players for the squad. Not every player will be a Bryan/Reid/Kelly who'll get sold for millions but even just squad players being filled in the ranks by academy players goes some way to help. Then every so often (hopefully improving in regularity) we do see players who advance to being 1st team starting quality.

[Better Red]

15 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

But thats it isn't it and its a good thing. The academy is there to provide players so that (in a sense) the club doesn't have to go out and buy someone in the position you're listing players, Antoine being as good as O'Dowda means we haven't had to buy someone for the role Antoine is doing, is Max good enough as a championship number 2? Yes, so we haven't had to bring someone in for that role who'd probably be on bigger wages. Vyner being as good as Hunt means we have a second choice RB at the club and haven't had to recruit another one, the only reason Mariappa has been playing RB is because of how well Zak was playing at CB and in midfield and the only reason Mariappa came in was due to the injury crisis which isn't due to the quality of academy player. If the player moves on to be a 1st team regular and first choice then great but the players are saving the club from significant expenditure to bring in other players for the squad. Not every player will be a Bryan/Reid/Kelly who'll get sold for millions but even just squad players being filled in the ranks by academy players goes some way to help. Then every so often (hopefully improving in regularity) we do see players who advance to being 1st team starting quality.

But all the players I am using as examples are bang average at best players.

They and the kids are not going to take us forward.

If happy with bottom half of the championship and eventually bouncing between champ and L1 they are fine.

But for me not good enough for a team that wants to get if the championship.

Seyemnyo can’t score a goal.

HNM and Bakinson can’t hold a first team place down.

TM can’t get into the team.

Vyner is a good squad player.

O'Leary never likely to be a starter we will always buy better.

They ain’t good enough and that’s in this team who are awful at the moment.

With better players most are all bench players at best so not sure why everyone thinks that’s good.

They are all good kids at L1 but not Championship level.

Its just hope and not backed up by anything we are seeing.

Lowe at Swansea cost 800k may as well just buy better players at circa 1m than play kids who aren’t quiet good enough at this level.

Or get loan players in that can add to the ‘first team’

Our recruitment and the academy is below  what we need to progress.

[Lrrr]

2 minutes ago, Better Red said:

But all the players I am using as examples are bang average at best players.

They and the kids are not going to take us forward.

If happy with bottom half of the championship and eventually bouncing between champ and L1 they are fine.

But for me not good enough for a team that wants to get if the championship.

Seyemnyo can’t score a goal.

HNM and Bakinson can’t hold a first team place down.

TM can’t get into the team.

Vyner is a good squad player.

O'Leary never likely to be a starter we will always buy better.

They ain’t good enough and that’s in this team who are awful at the moment.

With better players most are all bench players at best so not sure why everyone thinks that’s good.

They are all good kids at L1 but not Championship level.

Its just hope and not backed up by anything we are seeing.

Lowe at Swansea cost 800k may as well just buy better players at circa 1m than play kids who aren’t quiet good enough at this level.

Or get loan players in that can add to the ‘first team’

Our recruitment and the academy is below  what we need to progress.

I didn't include Han-Noah and Taylor as they were bought for decent fees

The point is if you produce several 'bang average' championship players from you're academy (we're at 8 so far this season who've featured for the 1st team) then you can invent more per player on the other players you recruit if you're not having to spend approx £1m if not more on several more players to fill out a squad. For the cost of £1m per player academy player we've used this season you could essentially pay new recruits £5000 a week more over a 3 year contract which helps when recruiting players. You need squad players no two ways around it, what's worse having academy players fill the spots or players you're spending up to £1m to bring in who you're claiming are no better than the academy players we have around? Use that money to recruit better 1st XI players. Lowe was a fee due to Wigan's situation so hard to compare as there are always bargains around if you're recruitment is good enough, but Lowe would also come under the classification of 1st XI recruitment rather than squad player. As you've pointed out we've spent more on O'Dowda/Moore who are squad players so why not use academy players as squad players and invest that money into less but better signings?

[Better Red]

17 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

I didn't include Han-Noah and Taylor as they were bought for decent fees

The point is if you produce several 'bang average' championship players from you're academy (we're at 8 so far this season who've featured for the 1st team) then you can invent more per player on the other players you recruit if you're not having to spend approx £1m if not more on several more players to fill out a squad. For the cost of £1m per player academy player we've used this season you could essentially pay new recruits £5000 a week more over a 3 year contract which helps when recruiting players. You need squad players no two ways around it, what's worse having academy players fill the spots or players you're spending up to £1m to bring in who you're claiming are no better than the academy players we have around? Use that money to recruit better 1st XI players. Lowe was a fee due to Wigan's situation so hard to compare as there are always bargains around if you're recruitment is good enough, but Lowe would also come under the classification of 1st XI recruitment rather than squad player. As you've pointed out we've spent more on O'Dowda/Moore who are squad players so why not use academy players as squad players and invest that money into less but better signings?

But better signings would be in front of this group ok kids so they still would not play and would then not be good enough replacements to bring on...

Agree we could spend money else where but my point is just buy better players and we need better kids coming through.