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if only we had kept the faith

where's the joy

By where's the joy
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Pezo

Pezo

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, where's the joy said:

Where would this team be now

Bentley

Ayling, Webster, Kelly, Bryan

Brownhill, Smith, Patterson, Pack, Eliason 

Reid 

The problem isn't keeping our best players - they all got better offers than we could make except Smith who had been injured for 2 seasons.

The problem is replacing them with average league 1 players and players that prem teams are desperate to offload for over inflated prices.

So under all circumstances - those players would now all be elsewhere.

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Northern Red

Northern Red

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, where's the joy said:

Where would this team be now

Bentley

Ayling, Webster, Kelly, Bryan

Brownhill, Smith, Patterson, Pack, Eliason 

Reid 

Not playing for Bristol City, because we'd be in League 1 having suffered relegation due to a significant points deduction for breaching FFP.

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

Posted
Posted (edited)

Let's not forget that a number of the signings- yes there were a number of out and out flops- but a number had their time here ruined by injury, thereby making it harder to judge what they could truly do in some cases.

Plus think a number were not great tactical fits but that cuts both ways- LJ and his tactics limited us in certain areas in his final year and a half. Say from 2019/20 to the end of his time. All that said, 3 or 4 of his starters got crocked within 6-7 weeks of his final season! Thereby destroying the blueprint as was.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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nickolas

nickolas

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, harrys said:

Wouldn’t have Pack anywhere near the team, decent third division player

And yet would walk into this team for seasons to come. 
Always wanted the ball, always trying for a pass. Yet another shameful departure. 

1 hour ago, Fordy62 said:

I think ten is the answer. Leaving us with a 0-0-0 formation. 

Similar formation to now then with our non existent defence, midfield and striker departments!

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chinapig

chinapig

Posted
Posted
Just now, westex red said:

losing Eliason, Ayling and Webster was a huge mistake

And Pack is still sorely missed!

I don't remember much of an outcry when Ayling left. Eliasson was running down his contract so we needed to get some value for him. Webster wanted to go and the fee was too big to refuse anyway.

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westex red

westex red

Posted
Posted
Just now, chinapig said:

I don't remember much of an outcry when Ayling left. Eliasson was running down his contract so we needed to get some value for him. Webster wanted to go and the fee was too big to refuse anyway.

And your point is?

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chinapig

chinapig

Posted
Posted
Just now, westex red said:

And your point is?

That mistake is the wrong word given that we could not realistically have held on to 2 of them.

Ayling may look like a mistake in retrospect as he has been transformed by Bielsa but not many fans were complaining at the time.

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westex red

westex red

Posted
Posted
Just now, chinapig said:

That mistake is the wrong word given that we could not realistically have held on to 2 of them.

Ayling may look like a mistake in retrospect as he has been transformed by Bielsa but not many fans were complaining at the time.

I agree with you totally, just think we miss these players.

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ScottishRed

ScottishRed

Posted
Posted (edited)

It still utterly astounds me how many on here do not get how modern football and FFP work.

Lets take Adam Webster as an example - was excellent for us, but that was noticed, Villa came in for him and we said no, que disappointed player due to the fact that Villa would probably have quadrupled his wages.

In come Brighton and they make an acceptable offer to the club and I am sure to the player too.

On what planet do people think he would want to stick around?

Answer he wouldn’t, it happens to all clubs and there is nothing we can do about it.

Edited by ScottishRed
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BS4 on Tour...

BS4 on Tour...

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

... a number had their time here ruined by injury, thereby making it harder to judge what they could truly do in some cases.

Who were those players? Not saying you’re wrong, but I can’t remember ‘a number’ having their City careers ‘ruined by injury’ - happy to be proved wrong though and give my memory a jolt ... ???

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Dolman_Stand

Dolman_Stand

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, redsquirrel said:

of that list,webster was the best and money we couldnt refuse.brownhill going upset our midfield ,another not replaced. korey was our midfield general until his injury ,brownhill made up for a lot of that. had a few off days but was generally solid

He's the biggest loss I reckon, he was the player that LJ couldn't recover from losing. We were still around the top 6 just before Covid happened and JB left and look at us now

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BS4 on Tour...

BS4 on Tour...

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

It still utterly astounds me how many on here do not get how modern football and FFP work.

Lets take Adam Webster as an example - was excellent for us, but that was noticed, Villa came in for him and we said no, que disappointed player due to the fact that Villa would probably have quadrupled his wages.

In come Brighton and they make an acceptable offer to the club and I am sure to the player too.

On what planet do people think he would want to stick around?

Answer he wouldn’t, it happens to all clubs and there is nothing we can do about it.

I’m probably being dreadfully naive but what has the scenarios you’ve outlined in your post got to do with FFP? All you’ve said is ‘ Villa probably offered him ridiculous wages, Brighton offered him acceptable dosh, so he buggered off’ - of course Webster’s head would be turned by those offers - but you’re “astounded how many on here do not get how FFP work” - please explain how Webster leaving for a higher salary affected our club with regards to FFP? 

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Who were those players? Not saying you’re wrong, but I can’t remember ‘a number’ having their City careers ‘ruined by injury’ - happy to be proved wrong though and give my memory a jolt ... ???

'Ruined' may not be the right term, granted.

I seem to recall to name 3, lengthy injuries for O'Neil, Hegeler, Djuric.

There will be others too, certainly it made it harder to judge their attributes, also unsure whether we used eg Hegeler to his best. We've had so many medium to long term injuries since Autumn 2017 they seem to merge into one!

Mawson last season, Sessegnon last season, Afobe 2 seasons?

Did Walsh get a proper go yet I seem to recall lengthy injuries in his case.

@GrahamC

He went to Ligue 1, they went down and club likely didn't sell. Ligue 2 has produced some useful players, think West Ham signed some a few years back.

For us though, despite being in and out of the side he was the 2nd highest assist maker in the Championship in 2019/20.

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Fammyfan

Fammyfan

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, Dolman_Stand said:

He's the biggest loss I reckon, he was the player that LJ couldn't recover from losing. We were still around the top 6 just before Covid happened and JB left and look at us now

That season was a real opportunity to make the top 6. We were on the verge pre covid, had Afobe coming back but the weakness of our team was in centre midfield.

Had JB and MP still been here, I believe we would have made playoffs.

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Waconda

Waconda

Posted
Posted
54 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

It still utterly astounds me how many on here do not get how modern football and FFP work.

Lets take Adam Webster as an example - was excellent for us, but that was noticed, Villa came in for him and we said no, que disappointed player due to the fact that Villa would probably have quadrupled his wages.

In come Brighton and they make an acceptable offer to the club and I am sure to the player too.

On what planet do people think he would want to stick around?

Answer he wouldn’t, it happens to all clubs and there is nothing we can do about it.

and we do it to other clubs, probably trebled Tanners wages when we took him form Carlisle.

 

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Fuber

Fuber

Posted
Posted
58 minutes ago, westex red said:

losing Eliason, Ayling and Webster was a huge mistake

And Pack is still sorely missed!

I'd say the only mistake of those four was Ayling; especially considering the miniscule fee recieved, that was LJ and MA's single biggest blunder, along with the former not playing Nagy and Benkovic in the lead up to his sacking.

As for Eliasson, Webster, and Pack; I'd argue we made the right decisions moving them on. Once again - the issue was not adequately replacing them.

For context, for that fee alone we could have bought the likes of Ethan Pinnock, Anthonee Robinson, Ivan Toney, Ezri Konsa, Said Benrahma, and Oliver Norwood off the top of my head who were playing abroad and or at a lower level and were available at that time, with change. Granted hindsight etc. Using FM (I know, I know) simply for wage estimates at their clubs for the following season (20/21), the former list comes to around £55-60kpw.

While in reality we bought: Kalas (£8m), Massengo (£3m rising to £8m), Wells (£4m), Palmer (£4m), DaSilva (£2m), Bentley (£2m), Nagy (£2m), Szmodics (£1m) over the course of the following 12 months of that sale. All bar two on very expensive contracts for us at this level (Massengo, Szmodics). That, was the big issue with out receruitment strategy, and why we're now crippled; using the same method (i.e. FM 20/21 wages), that equates to £100-110kpw. Stupid spending that MA and LJ were both culpable for; the former for allowing that inflated a budget and spending, and the latter for signing 'clubs in the bag'.

It wasn't the transfer fees that crippled us; we should never have operated at over 125% of base turnover before fees recieved. Ashton didn't sign players to develop, he signed premier league cast offs who were much more expensive than their lower league counterparts with regards to wages. He simply signed extra players to fill the 'development' quota; however they were never used - for which LJ takes the blame, as the latter development could never be done while he focused on countering the opposition instead of developing an identity for oursleves; more experienced players would be easier to deploy as having greater anticipation.

It's why its good that we're at least blooding younger lower league signings (what of them we have so far) and academy players - i.e. Tanner, Atkinson, Scott, Benarous, Pearson, Conway, Bell, etc. The issue remains expensive players on deals they simply do not deserve, i.e. DaSilva, Palmer, O'Dowda, Wells, among others.

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fgrsimon

fgrsimon

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, where's the joy said:

Where would this team be now

Bentley

Ayling, Webster, Kelly, Bryan

Brownhill, Smith, Patterson, Pack, Eliason 

Reid 

Don't think that line-up is going to score many goals. Bobby Reid's got 18 goals in 116 games since he left us and while the midfield might weigh in with a few none of them were exactly prolific goalscorers with us or since. Might have to stick Flinty in there! 

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ScottishRed

ScottishRed

Posted
Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I’m probably being dreadfully naive but what has the scenarios you’ve outlined in your post got to do with FFP? All you’ve said is ‘ Villa probably offered him ridiculous wages, Brighton offered him acceptable dosh, so he buggered off’ - of course Webster’s head would be turned by those offers - but you’re “astounded how many on here do not get how FFP work” - please explain how Webster leaving for a higher salary affected our club with regards to FFP? 

I am sorry, maybe I was unclear, his new salary at Brighton did not effect our FFP situation but his transfer fee certainly did. In a positive way of course.

And, of course, for numerous reasons, we could not match Brighton’s offer to Webster.

Edited by ScottishRed
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