50 Transfers

[Harry]

I was having a little bit of a wonder about our starting line up yesterday and how it was put together. 
I found it quite interesting that to get to the 8 non-academy players we started, you have to go back 50 transfers. 
So that’s 50 signings we’ve made, that resulted in the 8 players being fielded yesterday. 
 

That’s over 10 transfer windows - the earliest being O’Dowda in July 16. 
 

We can shorten this period down by stating that only 1 of our last 12 signings started. Read that again. ONE OF OUR LAST TWELVE SIGNINGS!! 
 

So, whilst we all knew there was a stockpiling of players under MA & LJ, since LJ left, things haven’t got any better. 
 

I keep banging on about it, I know some will be bored of me saying it, but our recruitment over the last 4 years has been absolutely shocking. And it hasn’t improved over the last 18 months either. 
 

We need to sort out the recruitment ASAP. We still don’t have a Head of Recruitment. We still don’t have a Chief Scout. We still rely upon an in house database that doesn’t send a scout to watch Cheltenham v Exeter under 18’s last Saturday morning, a database that won’t have a damn clue about Felix Miles or Will Armitage or Alex Hartridge, just like it didn’t have a clue in the past about the likes of Grimes, Watkins, Jay, Key or the likes of Twine, hell let’s even go back further and say Bowen when at Hereford. 
We seem to have once again abandoned the idea that there are potentially good youngsters on our doorstep, and we aren’t thinking about these for the future. 
 

Unless we’ve got 15 absolute diamonds in our youth set up, I sincerely worry about the next few years with the lack of knowledge of local/south west youngsters. 
 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Harry

[old parkender]

Alarming! There’s a serious lack of professionalism running through the club, too many sound bites,fancy videos and slogans but very little hands on nitty gritty practical grafting to improve our outlook. 

[Alessandro]

I admire your ongoing passion on this subject @Harry - feels like you’ve been saying this same thing repeatedly for many many years, as long as I can remember in fact! 

[Harry]

I can’t stress this enough. 
 

ONE OF OUR LAST TWELVE!! 
 

We’ve signed 12 players and only 1 was able/capable/required to play. 
 

I’m absolutely shocked. And quite frankly, ******* livid with that!! 

[Davefevs]

Keep the posts coming, always an interesting read.

You need to pitch your services to Mr Pearson directly, or get in via Tinnion.  I’m sure you could list a number of players that might pique his interest!

I’m not expecting much in January.

Having thought about it, some of the signings you’d want to do in the summer, can’t really be brought forward, because they only becoming viable when they are OOC.

Think we will be relying on keeping players fit.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

I can’t stress this enough. 
 

ONE OF OUR LAST TWELVE!! 
 

We’ve signed 12 players and only 1 was able/capable/required to play. 
 

I’m absolutely shocked. And quite frankly, ******* livid with that!! 

Are some of those 12 no longer here….Lansbury, Mariappa etc?  Not disputing your point.

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Are some of those 12 no longer here….Lansbury, Mariappa etc?  Not disputing your point.

Jeez!! I missed those 2. Make that 1 out of 14!! 
It gets worse. 

[Midlands Robin]

Just now, Davefevs said:

I’m not expecting much in January.

This really worries me because I feel that the January window is critical for the sustainability and stability of our Championship status.

At the very, very least we need a decent forward but we need improvement in a number of other areas.

[Harry]

Just looked at Pearson’s 5 signings. Simpson, James, King, Atkinson, Tanner. 
 

20 games gone. 100 possible starting places. They’ve started 50. 
That’s a 50% strike rate from the latest crop. 
 

I’m gonna stop now - it’s gets ever more depressing!! 

[gary s]

Don't forget Tyrone Ming's played for Yate town and Chippenham town before signing for Ipswich by Russell Osman ,what do we look at ?

[Harry]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Keep the posts coming, always an interesting read.

You need to pitch your services to Mr Pearson directly, or get in via Tinnion.  I’m sure you could list a number of players that might pique his interest!

I’m not expecting much in January.

Having thought about it, some of the signings you’d want to do in the summer, can’t really be brought forward, because they only becoming viable when they are OOC.

Think we will be relying on keeping players fit.

As I mentioned to you in another thread the other day. I’m not expecting much in Jan. we don’t have much money to play with and so unless we get some relatively cheap loans in we’ll have to wait til summer to hunt for freebies. 

[Rob k]

5 minutes ago, Harry said:

Just looked at Pearson’s 5 signings. Simpson, James, King, Atkinson, Tanner. 
 

20 games gone. 100 possible starting places. They’ve started 50. 
That’s a 50% strike rate from the latest crop. 
 

I’m gonna stop now - it’s gets ever more depressing!! 

Baker and Weiman? And out of those 50 games they have not played do we know how many is down to injuries?

Edited November 29, 2021 by Rob k

[Mad Cyril]

The recruitment is irrelevant.  Its this club's ability to coach the talent, skill, confidence and health out of whoever we bring in that is staggering.

Seriously, we could finish Foden if he came here.

[Gumpster1]

Interesting post. Certainly pretty damning of our recruitment policy. 

We can certainly blame Mark Ashton for some of the mess. 

In terms of the Pearson era I think that King, James, Tanner and Atkinson have done Ok. Tanner and Atkinson look like they can nail down starting positions and could attract a fee when they move on.

Simpson has been disappointing on the pitch and if he is having a positive influence in the changing room, we’re yet to see the benefit.

I trust Pearson’s judgement and expect that despite not having the £millions that were made available to LJ he will improve the squad in January. 

We just need to keep patience with the current threadbare squad and not overreact to results.

[Merrick's Marvels]

28 minutes ago, Harry said:

our recruitment over the last 4 years has been absolutely shocking. 

Which is exactly how you get relegated. Twas ever thus and we're well on course this time round. 

 

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not expecting much in January.

Think we will be relying on keeping players fit.

 If that happens we are f00ked. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Merrick's Marvels

[sh1t_ref_again]

20 minutes ago, Harry said:

I was having a little bit of a wonder about our starting line up yesterday and how it was put together. 
I found it quite interesting that to get to the 8 non-academy players we started, you have to go back 50 transfers. 
So that’s 50 signings we’ve made, that resulted in the 8 players being fielded yesterday. 
 

That’s over 10 transfer windows - the earliest being O’Dowda in July 16. 
 

We can shorten this period down by stating that only 1 of our last 12 signings started. Read that again. ONE OF OUR LAST TWELVE SIGNINGS!! 
 

So, whilst we all knew there was a stockpiling of players under MA & LJ, since LJ left, things haven’t got any better. 
 

I keep banging on about it, I know some will be bored of me saying it, but our recruitment over the last 4 years has been absolutely shocking. And it hasn’t improved over the last 18 months either. 
 

We need to sort out the recruitment ASAP. We still don’t have a Head of Recruitment. We still don’t have a Chief Scout. We still rely upon an in house database that doesn’t send a scout to watch Cheltenham v Exeter under 18’s last Saturday morning, a database that won’t have a damn clue about Felix Miles or Will Armitage or Alex Hartridge, just like it didn’t have a clue in the past about the likes of Grimes, Watkins, Jay, Key or the likes of Twine, hell let’s even go back further and say Bowen when at Hereford. 
We seem to have once again abandoned the idea that there are potentially good youngsters on our doorstep, and we aren’t thinking about these for the future. 
 

Unless we’ve got 15 absolute diamonds in our youth set up, I sincerely worry about the next few years with the lack of knowledge of local/south west youngsters. 
 

Harry - we hear what you say about recruitment and have to take it on face value with regards to how the club is set up and runs this side of the business and what changes NP if any is making. It appears clear to most supporters it is an area that has been awful under MA's watch, with his business plan strategy to SL of trading players to generate profit and I guess with the right recruitment / scouting it could of worked, but has gone badly as we all know.

Your posts on this subject are nearly as often as Hampshire reds calling for the sacking of NP. You obviously have a lot of knowledge on the subject and very frustrated, you appear to have been possible involved with the club at some stage? now for the rest of us who do not know you, I would appreciate to understand your expertise and your past, perhaps you could fill us in on the detail of your prior involvement if any with BCFC and when / why it ended. Appreciate if you can't, but would help to understand your rants.

 

[Engvall’s Splinter]

13 minutes ago, Harry said:

Just looked at Pearson’s 5 signings. Simpson, James, King, Atkinson, Tanner. 
 

20 games gone. 100 possible starting places. They’ve started 50. 
That’s a 50% strike rate from the latest crop. 
 

I’m gonna stop now - it’s gets ever more depressing!! 

Somewhat skewed owing to injuries and player characteristics. Simpson and King have been brought in to strengthen a depleted and inexperienced squad. Tanner and Atkinson have been positive and both have real room to improve. James needs a partner and someone to compliment his qualities rather than match. Pearson has an eye for a player. More confident in him to spend it wisely than I was Lee Johnson/Mark Ashton. I understand some of the sentiment though. 

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, Harry said:

Just looked at Pearson’s 5 signings. Simpson, James, King, Atkinson, Tanner. 
 

20 games gone. 100 possible starting places. They’ve started 50. 
That’s a 50% strike rate from the latest crop. 
 

I’m gonna stop now - it’s gets ever more depressing!! 

Tanner wasn’t signed to start right away was he, let alone every game….plus he wasn’t signed til game 6!  Simpson and King were never gonna start most weeks either imho.

24 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Baker and Weiman? And out of those 50 games they have not played so we know how many is down to injuries?

Weimann - 20 squads / 20 starts / 0 missed

Baker - 16 squads / 13 starts / 2 subs / 1 unused / 4 injured

Tanner - 10 squads / 10 starts / 3 injured (2 squads missed when first signed)

King - 11 squads / 7 starts / 2 subs / 2 unused / 9 injured (1 + 8 )

James - 16 squads / 16 starts / 4 injured

Simpson - 17 squads / 2 starts / 1 sub / 14 unused / 3 squads missed

Atkinson - 18 squads / 15 starts / 2 subs / 1 unused / 2 injured

I don’t think the signings / re-signings are as bad as perhaps thought.  Not all we’re expected to play every game.  22 games missed through injury across 7 players.  An average of 3 per player, or 1 player per game.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Davefevs

[Waconda]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Keep the posts coming, always an interesting read.

You need to pitch your services to Mr Pearson directly, or get in via Tinnion.  I’m sure you could list a number of players that might pique his interest!

I’m not expecting much in January.

Having thought about it, some of the signings you’d want to do in the summer, can’t really be brought forward, because they only becoming viable when they are OOC.

Think we will be relying on keeping players fit.

When fit we have a competitive if basic championship squad ,as shown versus Blackburn, which ended the "no one could coach these players" nonsense.

Sadly injuries have come back to haunt us and with having to cut the wage bill we are left with less bodies to fill the "trenches".

I would be very surprised to see much happen in January as you say gambling on the medical guy living up to the hype and get the injured back quickly.

[Pezo]

I wonder what the average is across the league. I like to think most of the time if you're the big fish (us in league 1) then you should really be getting about 1 in every 2 correct, if your the small/medium fish (us in the championship) you should probably be looking at 1 in every 4 (we can't attract the best players at this level so there is a lot more risk and likelihood of getting it wrong).

1 in 12 is frankly embarrassing and shine's a 1000 watt bulb on our problems, I wonder what the warning signs were because a lot of those players could be doing better for us.

I do wonder if the club hierarchy know this level, we do like players that seem to be average league 1 players (we never buy the best league 1 players), old championship level players that are past it and prem castoffs that think they are too good for league 1 but that would also be there natural level.

[Tin Soldier]

35 minutes ago, old parkender said:

Alarming! There’s a serious lack of professionalism running through the club, too many sound bites,fancy videos and slogans but very little hands on nitty gritty practical grafting to improve our outlook. 

Bang on the money. The club has been a shambles for years. NP will need some help from somewhere to sort it. No one can do it on there own.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, VT05763 said:

When fit we have a competitive if basic championship squad ,as shown versus Blackburn, which ended the "no one could coach these players" nonsense.

Sadly injuries have come back to haunt us and with having to cut the wage bill we are left with less bodies to fill the "trenches".

I would be very surprised to see much happen in January as you say gambling on the medical guy living up to the hype and get the injured back quickly.

I think generally the medical guy is getting players back quicker, and I don’t think they are suffering as long term injuries as the previous regime.  I see improvement.  Williams didn’t break down this time on the same hamstring.  That is a small crumb of comfort too.  Might not seem it I accept,

[1960maaan]

I'd be interested to see that list @Harry, doesn't stack up well though.

I would say, of the ones since Pearson came in.....
Atkinson , looks promising .         Injured
Tanner , looks promising.             Injured
James , had been playing well .  Injured
King ,  had looked ok.                   Injured
Simpson , always a stop gap. 
Baker , had looked solid 
Weimann , played most games ( I added the last 2 as it was his choice to re-sign them )

From that perspective I think that's a decent hit rate, all , apart from Simpson are worth first team status IMO.  Tanner & Atkinson were buys with an eye on the future, but from what I've seen, I've been impressed. King & James had been doing an OK job. We've had more than our fair share of injuries (again) , but it feels like more bad luck this time around with the new medical staff brought in to improve the situation. 
Those numbers are shocking, and yet not a complete surprise. We need to improve, but if Atkinson & Tanner are a sign of the future targets, I feel a little happier.

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think generally the medical guy is getting players back quicker, and I don’t think they are suffering as long term injuries as the previous regime.  I see improvement.  Williams didn’t break down this time on the same hamstring.  That is a small crumb of comfort too.  Might not seem it I accept,

He is and is going to continue to be very busy.

COD is due a breakdown for instance, poor sod.

Hopefully we don't get to the mid to late stage Holden era of casualties.

[cidercity1987]

I'd love to see the list of last 50 players Harry recommended to the club. One of them would be O Watkins of course but what about the others?

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

42 minutes ago, Harry said:

I was having a little bit of a wonder about our starting line up yesterday and how it was put together. 
I found it quite interesting that to get to the 8 non-academy players we started, you have to go back 50 transfers. 
So that’s 50 signings we’ve made, that resulted in the 8 players being fielded yesterday. 
 

 

Really interesting point. What are the same stats for every other club in the Championship?

Are we the same, better or worse when it comes to transfer turnover? Stats in isolation may be shocking yet others may be more shocking. 

It would also interesting to see whether the high signings v low signings equals better/worse performance.

The points you continually make Harry are incredibly relevant when put in the exact same context of other clubs in our division and specifically those who are promoted, relegated or have points deductions.

[Red Skin]

14 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Harry - we hear what you say about recruitment and have to take it on face value with regards to how the club is set up and runs this side of the business and what changes NP if any is making. It appears clear to most supporters it is an area that has been awful under MA's watch, with his business plan strategy to SL of trading players to generate profit and I guess with the right recruitment / scouting it could of worked, but has gone badly as we all know.

Your posts on this subject are nearly as often as Hampshire reds calling for the sacking of NP. You obviously have a lot of knowledge on the subject and very frustrated, you appear to have been possible involved with the club at some stage? now for the rest of us who do not know you, I would appreciate to understand your expertise and your past, perhaps you could fill us in on the detail of your prior involvement if any with BCFC and when / why it ended. Appreciate if you can't, but would help to understand your rants.

 

I think these comments do @Harry a real disservice.   I find his postings on targets interesting and informative. Though you do sense some (totally understandable) frustration in posts I would not dismiss them as rants made by others.   I would be interested to hear about any connection you had with the club in the past @Harry.

[Harry]

12 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I'd be interested to see that list @Harry, doesn't stack up well though.

I would say, of the ones since Pearson came in.....
Atkinson , looks promising .         Injured
Tanner , looks promising.             Injured
James , had been playing well .  Injured
King ,  had looked ok.                   Injured
Simpson , always a stop gap. 
Baker , had looked solid 
Weimann , played most games ( I added the last 2 as it was his choice to re-sign them )

From that perspective I think that's a decent hit rate, all , apart from Simpson are worth first team status IMO.  Tanner & Atkinson were buys with an eye on the future, but from what I've seen, I've been impressed. King & James had been doing an OK job. We've had more than our fair share of injuries (again) , but it feels like more bad luck this time around with the new medical staff brought in to improve the situation. 
Those numbers are shocking, and yet not a complete surprise. We need to improve, but if Atkinson & Tanner are a sign of the future targets, I feel a little happier.

The list of 12 was, in chronological order:

Tanner, Atkinson, King, James, Simpson, Brunt, Martin, J Williams, Wells, Rodri, A Williams, Nagy. 
Dave kindly added Mariappa & Lansbury.

Only 1 of those last 14 permanent signings started yesterday. That’s not a good look. 

 

[Waconda]

7 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Really interesting point. What are the same stats for every other club in the Championship?

Are we the same, better or worse when it comes to transfer turnover? Stats in isolation may be shocking yet others may be more shocking. 

It would also interesting to see whether the high signings v low signings equals better/worse performance.

The points you continually make Harry are incredibly relevant when put in the exact same context of other clubs in our division and specifically those who are promoted, relegated or have points deductions.

Good Point.

[Numero Uno]

37 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Harry - we hear what you say about recruitment and have to take it on face value with regards to how the club is set up and runs this side of the business and what changes NP if any is making. It appears clear to most supporters it is an area that has been awful under MA's watch, with his business plan strategy to SL of trading players to generate profit and I guess with the right recruitment / scouting it could of worked, but has gone badly as we all know.

Your posts on this subject are nearly as often as Hampshire reds calling for the sacking of NP. You obviously have a lot of knowledge on the subject and very frustrated, you appear to have been possible involved with the club at some stage? now for the rest of us who do not know you, I would appreciate to understand your expertise and your past, perhaps you could fill us in on the detail of your prior involvement if any with BCFC and when / why it ended. Appreciate if you can't, but would help to understand your rants.

 

Regardless of how often @Harry makes his points the fact is that having no Head of Recruitment and/or Chief Scout is saving pennies in the wrong areas. Extremely short sighted and I'm afraid that is on the hierarchy who allowed Swiss Tony and his "Excel Special" to completely hoodwink them. Put another way would having Danny Simpson in the squad OR both a Head of Recruitment and Chief Scout be a better use of cash because there probably wouldn't be much difference in the wages? If you really wanted to go to town you could say for the wages of Kasey Palmer we could probably hire a whole UK wide recruitment operation!!

Edited November 29, 2021 by Numero Uno

[Numero Uno]

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

The list of 12 was, in chronological order:

Tanner, Atkinson, King, James, Simpson, Brunt, Martin, J Williams, Wells, Rodri, A Williams, Nagy. 
Dave kindly added Mariappa & Lansbury.

Only 1 of those last 14 permanent signings started yesterday. That’s not a good look. 

 

And of those 14 five are no longer at the club and at least two more would be shown the door tomorrow by many supporters!!

[Harry]

15 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Really interesting point. What are the same stats for every other club in the Championship?

Are we the same, better or worse when it comes to transfer turnover? Stats in isolation may be shocking yet others may be more shocking. 

It would also interesting to see whether the high signings v low signings equals better/worse performance.

The points you continually make Harry are incredibly relevant when put in the exact same context of other clubs in our division and specifically those who are promoted, relegated or have points deductions.

Fair question. 
I’m not gonna waste 2 hours going through the whole league but let’s take Sheff Utd yesterday. They started 6 players who they’d signed in the last 3 windows. 
I’m also watching Qpr right now. They’ve started 7 players who they’d signed in the last 3 windows. 
Ours yesterday was 1. 

[bpexile]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

I was having a little bit of a wonder about our starting line up yesterday and how it was put together. 
I found it quite interesting that to get to the 8 non-academy players we started, you have to go back 50 transfers. 
So that’s 50 signings we’ve made, that resulted in the 8 players being fielded yesterday. 
 

That’s over 10 transfer windows - the earliest being O’Dowda in July 16. 
 

We can shorten this period down by stating that only 1 of our last 12 signings started. Read that again. ONE OF OUR LAST TWELVE SIGNINGS!! 
 

So, whilst we all knew there was a stockpiling of players under MA & LJ, since LJ left, things haven’t got any better. 
 

I keep banging on about it, I know some will be bored of me saying it, but our recruitment over the last 4 years has been absolutely shocking. And it hasn’t improved over the last 18 months either. 
 

We need to sort out the recruitment ASAP. We still don’t have a Head of Recruitment. We still don’t have a Chief Scout. We still rely upon an in house database that doesn’t send a scout to watch Cheltenham v Exeter under 18’s last Saturday morning, a database that won’t have a damn clue about Felix Miles or Will Armitage or Alex Hartridge, just like it didn’t have a clue in the past about the likes of Grimes, Watkins, Jay, Key or the likes of Twine, hell let’s even go back further and say Bowen when at Hereford. 
We seem to have once again abandoned the idea that there are potentially good youngsters on our doorstep, and we aren’t thinking about these for the future. 
 

Unless we’ve got 15 absolute diamonds in our youth set up, I sincerely worry about the next few years with the lack of knowledge of local/south west youngsters. 
 

I wouldn't call it banging on Harry, you're simply pointing out the basics of how the club should be run. I would have thought that NP could have addressed this issue by now but perhaps its not in his job description. Our CEO now seems a a very astute & capable person, surely he should be putting things in place to remedy this huge failure of the club.

Sounds to me we need a "Harry" on the job 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Fair question. 
I’m not gonna waste 2 hours going through the whole league but let’s take Sheff Utd yesterday. They started 6 players who they’d signed in the last 3 windows. 
I’m also watching Qpr right now. They’ve started 7 players who they’d signed in the last 3 windows. 
Ours yesterday was 1. 

I suspect it make take you more than 2 hours, Harry!!

It really is interesting yet what would be illuminating  would be to see the stats for every single club in comparison- surely with such huge data available there is the answer out there ?

@Davefevs?

Or is Harry the new Hegeler with a new and genuinely important line of statistical info?

( new career in the next lockdown)

[sh1t_ref_again]

26 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

I think these comments do @Harry a real disservice.   I find his postings on targets interesting and informative. Though you do sense some (totally understandable) frustration in posts I would not dismiss them as rants made by others.   I would be interested to hear about any connection you had with the club in the past @Harry.

Not intended to be disrespectful or a disservice to Harry as I likewise enjoy the posts. Some have been quite strong recently in their attack on the recruitment within the club, posts often seem to have an inside knowledge of the workings of BCFC hence my question of Harrys past.

[Numero Uno]

21 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Really interesting point. What are the same stats for every other club in the Championship?

Are we the same, better or worse when it comes to transfer turnover? Stats in isolation may be shocking yet others may be more shocking. 

It would also interesting to see whether the high signings v low signings equals better/worse performance.

The points you continually make Harry are incredibly relevant when put in the exact same context of other clubs in our division and specifically those who are promoted, relegated or have points deductions.

I think the point is that the structure we have (or certainly did have under our last Fraud of a CEO) doesn't help us. Scouting players is about doing the hard yards and sending people to hundreds of games every season, it's not done on spreadsheets. If you aren't out there watching these players you can bet your bottom dollar your rivals will be. I'm sure many scouts will tell you they probably have to watch those hundreds of games to find that one player who they look at and think "with the right coaching there's a player in there". Sometimes you might be unsure and have to watch a player three or four times before deciding either way. On occasion by being out and about and developing contacts you get players recommended to you perhaps by scouts at top clubs who have looked at a player and think "he's just a little bit short of what we need but the kid can certainly play". You don't get random telephone calls with that information, you need people on the scouting circuit networking. That's the nature of the job and always has been yet the previous CEO of the mighty Bristol City FC seemingly thought they could bin all that and recruit from behind a laptop..........

 

[Harry]

43 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Harry - we hear what you say about recruitment and have to take it on face value with regards to how the club is set up and runs this side of the business and what changes NP if any is making. It appears clear to most supporters it is an area that has been awful under MA's watch, with his business plan strategy to SL of trading players to generate profit and I guess with the right recruitment / scouting it could of worked, but has gone badly as we all know.

Your posts on this subject are nearly as often as Hampshire reds calling for the sacking of NP. You obviously have a lot of knowledge on the subject and very frustrated, you appear to have been possible involved with the club at some stage? now for the rest of us who do not know you, I would appreciate to understand your expertise and your past, perhaps you could fill us in on the detail of your prior involvement if any with BCFC and when / why it ended. Appreciate if you can't, but would help to understand your rants.

 

My involvement isn’t really relevant for me to have the opinion I hold but since you ask, I was involved under Sod & Burt and then Cotterill & Burt to the extent that I’d have dialogue with sod or Burt on a pretty much weekly basis. Our conversations and recommendations led to the signings of Flint, Pack, Ayling, Freeman. 
I’m no longer involved due to a young family and no longer having the time to travel the country watching games. I still get about when I can but I no longer consult. I do however still have many contacts from the network of scouts, agents, players, managers I built up back then, so am still well-informed as to some of the ongoings in our recruitment team. 

[sh1t_ref_again]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

My involvement isn’t really relevant for me to have the opinion I hold but since you ask, I was involved under Sod & Burt and then Cotterill & Burt to the extent that I’d have dialogue with sod or Burt on a pretty much weekly basis. Our conversations and recommendations led to the signings of Flint, Pack, Ayling, Freeman. 
I’m no longer involved due to a young family and no longer having the time to travel the country watching games. I still get about when I can but I no longer consult. I do however still have many contacts from the network of scouts, agents, players, managers I built up back then, so am still well-informed as to some of the ongoings in our recruitment team. 

Thank you for the reply, whilst your involvement is not necessary for an opinion it does add credibility, weight and substance to your views. So is my understanding correct you were a freelance scout?

[Tin Soldier]

@Harryconfirms what most on here have thought for some time. Recruitment has been a shambles.
One of the main reasons why we will probably get relegated this season.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Tin Soldier

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Tin Soldier said:

@Harryconfirms what most on here have thought for some time. Recruitment has been a shambles.
One of the main reasons why we will probably get relegated this season.

Didn't Ashton recruit NP ?

[Bodiesaffer]

1 hour ago, gary s said:

Don't forget Tyrone Ming's played for Yate town and Chippenham town before signing for Ipswich by Russell Osman ,what do we look at ?

That’s more depressing, what a missed opportunity. They need to give Brentford a call on how they find these gems..

[Waconda]

6 minutes ago, Bodiesaffer said:

That’s more depressing, what a missed opportunity. They need to give Brentford a call on how they find these gems..

Edited November 29, 2021 by VT05763

[Bodiesaffer]

2 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

You think start to think what might of been..

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Bodiesaffer said:

You think start to think what might of been..

Name the team ?

[redapple]

38 minutes ago, Harry said:

My involvement isn’t really relevant for me to have the opinion I hold but since you ask, I was involved under Sod & Burt and then Cotterill & Burt to the extent that I’d have dialogue with sod or Burt on a pretty much weekly basis. Our conversations and recommendations led to the signings of Flint, Pack, Ayling, Freeman. 
I’m no longer involved due to a young family and no longer having the time to travel the country watching games. I still get about when I can but I no longer consult. I do however still have many contacts from the network of scouts, agents, players, managers I built up back then, so am still well-informed as to some of the ongoings in our recruitment team. 

You should be giving Nige a call,  I’m quite happy to lend you my Mrs to babysit. 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, gary s said:

Don't forget Tyrone Ming's played for Yate town and Chippenham town before signing for Ipswich by Russell Osman ,what do we look at ?

 

13 minutes ago, Bodiesaffer said:

That’s more depressing, what a missed opportunity. They need to give Brentford a call on how they find these gems..

All I’ll say on Mings is that Russell Osman had the early heads-up on him as his son was playing in the same team. So I don’t think City was ever an option once Ipswich were involved (via Osman), as they were a bigger team back then. 

[Harry]

3 minutes ago, redapple said:

You should be giving Nige a call,  I’m quite happy to lend you my Mrs to babysit. 

Nah. I’m not hankering after a job or any involvement. I just want them to employ some competence in the recruitment team!! 

[Rob k]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

 

All I’ll say on Mings is that Russell Osman had the early heads-up on him as his son was playing in the same team. So I don’t think City was ever an option once Ipswich were involved (via Osman), as they were a bigger team back then. 

I was also told he didn’t particularly stand out at Yate either…….one of those that looks a big miss in hindsight 

[Bodiesaffer]

5 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Name the team ?

Yate. 

[Bodiesaffer]

Just now, Bodiesaffer said:

Yate. 

:laugh:

[Waconda]

Just now, Bodiesaffer said:

Yate. 

Nope, not Chippenham either but local.

[Kid in the Riot]

Of ydays starting 11:

8 were signed by LJ (tho 2 resigned by NP)

2 by Holden

0 by NP (excluding resignings)

The remaining player being Benarous. 

And people wonder why the performance was the same as many have been over the past three years.

Literally  nothing has changed. 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

The list of 12 was, in chronological order:

Tanner, Atkinson, King, James, Simpson, Brunt, Martin, J Williams, Wells, Rodri, A Williams, Nagy. 
Dave kindly added Mariappa & Lansbury.

Only 1 of those last 14 permanent signings started yesterday. That’s not a good look. 

 

To be fair, at least four of those were only ever going to be short-term signings (Ashley, Rodri, Mariappa, Lansbury, and arguably Brunt too); Nagy was with us for three seasons; James, Joe Williams, Tanner and King are all injured; and all the rest were involved at the weekend.

[Simon bristol]

Harry obviously has a lot of knowledge on this area, but we have obviously recruited cundy tanner and atkinson from lower leagues, pring was from cheltenham I think and has now made the squad for most of this season, and we all know scott came over from geurnsey, and bakinson came from luton with hinds,so these are all transfers from lower leagues for young players.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Simon bristol

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

The list of 12 was, in chronological order:

Tanner, Atkinson, King, James, Simpson, Brunt, Martin, J Williams, Wells, Rodri, A Williams, Nagy. 
Dave kindly added Mariappa & Lansbury.

Only 1 of those last 14 permanent signings started yesterday. That’s not a good look. 

 

There is a short sighted theme when you look at that list.

Tanner,
Atkinson,
King, 
James, 
Simpson, 
Brunt, 
Martin,
J Williams
Wells,
Rodri,
A Williams,
Nagy. 
Mariappa. 
Lansbury.

Most of those are either short term signings, stop gap signings or desperation signings as we were short of a player. Many were OOC and it makes it look even worse when we aren't planning ahead properly. 6 from 14 players with a view to the future, does explain why we are where we are to some extent.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Fair question. 
I’m not gonna waste 2 hours going through the whole league but let’s take Sheff Utd yesterday. They started 6 players who they’d signed in the last 3 windows. 
I’m also watching Qpr right now. They’ve started 7 players who they’d signed in the last 3 windows. 
Ours yesterday was 1. 

It’s an interesting way of looking at it.

I like any method that attempts to quantify it rather than just be subjective.  It shows how poor our recruitment planning has been.  Nobody expects every deal to be a success.  A while back I tried to do a bit of a “family history” of City transfers from the 14/15 season onwards, e.g. who came in to replace Little (ignore Ayling for this purpose) at RB:

Fredericks,

Bennett (loan)

Matthews (loan - twice)

Pisano

Hunt

Pereira (loan)

Sessegnon (loan)

Mariappa

Simpson

Tanner

….plus Vyner.  That’s 11 players, and I didn’t include Wright, who I saw as a CB.

 

I suspect wingers might be more horrific!

1 hour ago, bpexile said:

I wouldn't call it banging on Harry, you're simply pointing out the basics of how the club should be run. I would have thought that NP could have addressed this issue by now but perhaps its not in his job description. Our CEO now seems a a very astute & capable person, surely he should be putting things in place to remedy this huge failure of the club.

Sounds to me we need a "Harry" on the job 

he needs someone to run the database and build the dashboards!

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

I think the point is that the structure we have (or certainly did have under our last Fraud of a CEO) doesn't help us. Scouting players is about doing the hard yards and sending people to hundreds of games every season, it's not done on spreadsheets. If you aren't out there watching these players you can bet your bottom dollar your rivals will be. I'm sure many scouts will tell you they probably have to watch those hundreds of games to find that one player who they look at and think "with the right coaching there's a player in there". Sometimes you might be unsure and have to watch a player three or four times before deciding either way. On occasion by being out and about and developing contacts you get players recommended to you perhaps by scouts at top clubs who have looked at a player and think "he's just a little bit short of what we need but the kid can certainly play". You don't get random telephone calls with that information, you need people on the scouting circuit networking. That's the nature of the job and always has been yet the previous CEO of the mighty Bristol City FC seemingly thought they could bin all that and recruit from behind a laptop..........

 

Video saves a lot of travel, but it doesn’t replace going to matches…,that whole networking stuff for starters, but actually watching the player, what does he do when he’s not in view of the camera?

35 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Harry obviously has a lot of knowledge on this area, but we have obviously recruited cundy tanner and atkinson from lower leagues, pring was from cheltenham I think and has now made the squad for most of this season, and we all know scott came over from geurnsey, and bakinson came from luton with hinds,so these are all transfers from lower leagues for young players.

Would be interested who picked up the likes of Pring and Cundy….scouts, Tinnion, etc?  I guess they don’t come from a database.

[Lrrr]

1 hour ago, Rob k said:

I was also told he didn’t particularly stand out at Yate either…….one of those that looks a big miss in hindsight 

I was told Ipswich saw someone who had all the physical attributes to be a top player who they could teach the game and skills to and help them develop to the required standard 

[Mr Popodopolous]

The posts by @Harry on recruitment etc are of course interesting and detailed and a good read but perhaps at times there is a bit of tunnel vision That might not be entirely the right turn of phrase but he never mentions e.g. foreign players- and their increasing number at this level. In the last few seasons there have been plenty of bargains or relative bargains to be had, admittedly perhaps not so much post Brexit, in that market. Tunnel vision the wrong term but do your posts or similar on your preferred approach risk fishing in too small a pool?

As to the recruitment bits, Brentford...they are quite heavy on the data and analytics front but of course by no means is it solely that.

Can list a range of players who have come from abroad in recent times to Championship clubs with good success...would his approach factor in any of these? Excluding ones pumped up by Parachute Payments at times of course, subject to fee and wages.

@Davefevs I think some of those RBs were reasonable tbh- some were not of course and 11 in 5 or 6 years is terrible churn! Fredericks has gone on to have a reasonable career, thought Pisano had his good points and bad points, Pereira and Hunt had their uses- again good and bad, Bennett- was he under Cotts or am I thinking of someone else? If under Cotts, more of an RWB as the back 3 thing. Matthews first loan was impressive, second was awful- Fulham at home in February 2017 sticks in the mind.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Robin-hugh-blind]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

My involvement isn’t really relevant for me to have the opinion I hold but since you ask, I was involved under Sod & Burt and then Cotterill & Burt to the extent that I’d have dialogue with sod or Burt on a pretty much weekly basis. Our conversations and recommendations led to the signings of Flint, Pack, Ayling, Freeman. 
I’m no longer involved due to a young family and no longer having the time to travel the country watching games. I still get about when I can but I no longer consult. I do however still have many contacts from the network of scouts, agents, players, managers I built up back then, so am still well-informed as to some of the ongoings in our recruitment team. 

Should be a Leeds or Cardiff scout then

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Simon bristol said:

Harry obviously has a lot of knowledge on this area, but we have obviously recruited cundy tanner and atkinson from lower leagues, pring was from cheltenham I think and has now made the squad for most of this season, and we all know scott came over from geurnsey, and bakinson came from luton with hinds,so these are all transfers from lower leagues for young players.

 

49 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Would be interested who picked up the likes of Pring and Cundy….scouts, Tinnion, etc?  I guess they don’t come from a database.

Pring came from my group. We watched him dozens of times for Cheltenham youth. 
Cundy was first tracked when on loan at Gloucester. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Harry

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I think some of those RBs were reasonable tbh- some were not of course and 11 in 5 or 6 years is terrible churn! Fredericks has gone on to have a reasonable career, thought Pisano had his good points and bad points, Pereira and Hunt had their uses- again good and bad, Bennett- was he under Cotts or am I thinking of someone else? If under Cotts, more of an RWB as the back 3 thing. Matthews first loan was impressive, second was awful- Fulham at home in February 2017 sticks in the mind.

Yes, my point was the churn / short termism, rather than a critique of ability.  I was including Cotts era, hence Fredericks and Bennett upon promotion.

[bpexile]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

he needs someone to run the database and build the dashboards!

 

Anyone in mind Dave ?

[Fuber]

6 hours ago, Pezo said:

I wonder what the average is across the league. I like to think most of the time if you're the big fish (us in league 1) then you should really be getting about 1 in every 2 correct, if your the small/medium fish (us in the championship) you should probably be looking at 1 in every 4 (we can't attract the best players at this level so there is a lot more risk and likelihood of getting it wrong).

1 in 12 is frankly embarrassing and shine's a 1000 watt bulb on our problems, I wonder what the warning signs were because a lot of those players could be doing better for us.

I do wonder if the club hierarchy know this level, we do like players that seem to be average league 1 players (we never buy the best league 1 players), old championship level players that are past it and prem castoffs that think they are too good for league 1 but that would also be there natural level.

The start of the 'collapse' was LJ himself.

He thought he was Guardiola and tried tinkering counter each and every opposition he faced.

Even when he stumbled onto the idea of Reid as a pressng forward or as he put it the 'double false nine' with Pato, the second Diedhiou was back, Pato was shipped to LM, Reid to CAM, collapse occurred as he did what LJ alway did when we started losing. The tombola came out again.

Huge initial investment kept momentum in his first two seasons, the issue was once we started selling. LJ went for options, plural, instead of faith in a  like-for-like replacmemt. I.e. Weimann, Palmer,  and Watkins were signed when Reid was sold. Moore was recalled after we sold Flint, we also signed Kalas and Webster.

It's not the fees that screwed us, it was wages. Kalas and Webster may have worked, but Flint was on his extended contract at the point so, circa £10kpw, wages of the former two we were likely around £30kpw. Weimann, Palmer, Watkins probably around £35kpw to replace Reid's 6kpw (L1?) deal. 

Add that to poor punts on decent wages such as Djuric, Engvall, Tomlin.

Put another way, aside from loans out, we bought in 17 players between 2018-20. In the same period, we sold 7.

[Rob k]

6 hours ago, Lrrr said:

I was told Ipswich saw someone who had all the physical attributes to be a top player who they could teach the game and skills to and help them develop to the required standard 

Fair enough 

[Oh Louie louie]

Funny enough that djuric was on tv the other day.

Thats 2 ex city players leading the line in serie a!

[RedRock]

Our recruitment has been an absolute joke for years - ever since Cotts left. 

Can remember saying on here if the Club can’t be arsed to change their recruitment model then they should just track Brentford and put in last minute higher bids than they were making on players they had identified. Look where they are as compared to us! 
 

Should have, ages ago, appointed a wise old head Director of Football and a network of scouts, under a Head Scout, who knew their stuff and used analytics to aid, rather than drive, the process.

Instead, it appears we had a wannabe wheeler/dealer and some work experience chaps overseeing multi million pound investments and the future of our football club.

For a fraction of the money wasted on the likes of Palmer etc we could have set up the scouting framework we need.

We all know why it’s never happened don’t we. What surprises me is why nothing seems in place to change things now. 

Things don’t look good do they? Seriously, I think we’d struggle to put out winning performances in the National League at present. While a huge amount of this mess can be laid at Ashton’s door there do seem to be recurring themes developing under Big Nige.

Massive opportunities wasted to progress this Club in the last decade. Opportunities unlikely to be available again for a generation or more. Beyond depressing. 

[spudski]

I agree with Harry, that the recruitment could be far better.

The majority of the players recruited aren't bad players. They go on and play well for other teams, or turn up here, look good, then digress.

So it's not the players recruited perse

The problem we have imo, is we buy players that don't suit the way the manager/ coach wishes to play.

We've bought decent players, often with a sell on value in mind.

Players with talent in their own right, that are then manipulated to play in a way that doesn't suit their best attributes.

Never a team...always a bunch of individuals.

We had a way of playing early doors when LJ took over. It went downhill when we stopped playing the high press with energy and introduced the likes of Famara. It then resulted in a mix bag of Bassett's all sorts. We lost our identity. Just a bunch of players with no particular direction. It's got worse season by season since.

[Rob k]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I agree with Harry, that the recruitment could be far better.

The majority of the players recruited aren't bad players. They go on and play well for other teams, or turn up here, look good, then digress.

So it's not the players recruited perse

The problem we have imo, is we buy players that don't suit the way the manager/ coach wishes to play.

We've bought decent players, often with a sell on value in mind.

Players with talent in their own right, that are then manipulated to play in a way that doesn't suit their best attributes.

Never a team...always a bunch of individuals.

We had a way of playing early doors when LJ took over. It went downhill when we stopped playing the high press with energy and introduced the likes of Famara. It then resulted in a mix bag of Bassett's all sorts. We lost our identity. Just a bunch of players with no particular direction. It's got worse season by season since.

Agree totally - hence why in my opinion we have to stick with this manager and give him the time to sort this mess out, i don’t believe many managers could get this bunch of players playing well together consistently. 
look at the forward signings we have made in recent times  that have not made a good contribution, Engvell, Duric, smozics, Adelkun, Eisa, Wells, Palmer…… it’s disgraceful recruiting 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Rob k said:

Agree totally - hence why in my opinion we have to stick with this manager and give him the time to sort this mess out, i don’t believe many managers could get this bunch of players playing well together consistently. 
look at the forward signings we have made in recent times  that have not made a good contribution, Engvell, Duric, smozics, Adelkun, Eisa, Wells, Palmer…… it’s disgraceful recruiting 

Yep. And just to clarify - I am not calling for Pearson’s head. My point is that Pearson needs a better recruitment team behind him in order to help him to succeed. 
It’s an area we need to take action on asap. 

[Rob k]

23 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yep. And just to clarify - I am not calling for Pearson’s head. My point is that Pearson needs a better recruitment team behind him in order to help him to succeed. 
It’s an area we need to take action on asap. 

Yeah i don’t think you were calling for the managers head but I’ve seen plenty who have, I’m at a point where time has to be given purely to sort things out and just looking at your opening post it’s clear to see it’s a huge job