Martinelli’s red card

[Fordy62]

Really interesting debate to be had here… what are your thoughts?

 

At first glance it appears harsh but probably ok, but the more you consider some of the rules of the games the more murky it becomes… I’m still unsure!

Your thoughts?

[elhombrecito]

Fair cop. Both bookable offences.

[redsince1994]

Think it was correct. Both definite yellow card offences and the ref was very clear it was for 2 incidents. 

Clearly he thought he wouldn't be booked twice or he wouldn't have made the second challenge!

[GrahamC]

The chances of that happening to a Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea player? Zero.

To me as the ref allowed play to carry on, unless the second challenge was a red in its own right (it wasn’t) then it should be a yellow.

[Fordy62]

Just now, GrahamC said:

The chances of that happening to a Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea player? Zero.

To me as the ref allowed play to carry on, unless the second challenge was a red in its own right (it wasn’t) then it should be a yellow.

Interesting…

[cidercity1987]

Arteta's quote was fantastic, 'I think you have to be pretty willing to give a red card in that situation'.

I've seen plenty of examples where it could happen, i.e a foul given away then the same player kicks the ball away, but the two yellows never happen. Almost an unwritten rule, so it seemed very pedantic from Oliver.

[AshtonGreat]

6 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

The chances of that happening to a Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea player? Zero.

To me as the ref allowed play to carry on, unless the second challenge was a red in its own right (it wasn’t) then it should be a yellow.

I see what you mean about him letting the play carry on, but a lot of refs would've given a red for the shove on its own

[Show Me The Money!]

Thought it was bang on myself. The push was a yellow then Wolves had an advantage as they were on the attack so you let play continue then he commits a second yellow offence so I think the ref was spot on. I’m not getting into whether it would have happened against Liverpool or Man United players etc. The decision was the right one I think.

Especially as there was no VAR interference either

[Northern Red]

Are people really trying to claim that Arsenal are some hard done by small club compared to Liverpool or Nan Utd?

[Steve Watts]

7 minutes ago, Show Me The Money! said:

Thought it was bang on myself. The push was a yellow then Wolves had an advantage as they were on the attack so you let play continue then he commits a second yellow offence so I think the ref was spot on. I’m not getting into whether it would have happened against Liverpool or Man United players etc. The decision was the right one I think.

Especially as there was no VAR interference either

I don't think VAR could have interfered.  I think it's straight reds only.  As it was two bookings VAR don't get involved is my understanding.

Notwithstanding that, it was absolutely the correct call to make and Oliver should be applauded for making the decision that other refs would have bottled.

[Fordy62]

People also raising the fact that the purpose of a yellow card is to caution a player, how can you be unaware you’ve been cautioned?

[Show Me The Money!]

1 minute ago, Steve Watts said:

I don't think VAR could have interfered.  I think it's straight reds only.  As it was two bookings VAR don't get involved is my understanding.

Notwithstanding that, it was absolutely the correct call to make and Oliver should be applauded for making the decision that other refs would have bottled.

I knew it wasn’t something VAR could get involved with. My point was that it was good to see just good refereeing without VAR sticking its nose in

[Monkeh]

27 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Really interesting debate to be had here… what are your thoughts?

 

At first glance it appears harsh but probably ok, but the more you consider some of the rules of the games the more murky it becomes… I’m still unsure!

Your thoughts?

I thought it was a fantastic piece of refereeing, it was a foul and deserved a yellow, ref played advantage then the same play commits another found that deserved a yellow,

He should be praised for it and trying to let the game flow

[Clutton Caveman]

27 minutes ago, elhombrecito said:

Fair cop. Both bookable offences.

Could have had 3 for a dive just before the first offense

[LondonBristolian]

9 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

People also raising the fact that the purpose of a yellow card is to caution a player, how can you be unaware you’ve been cautioned?

This is a tough one. 

What makes it the right decision, in my opinion, is the nature of the first offence. If it had been a foul in the course of genuinely challenging for a ball then I think it would be unfair to give a second yellow because the player would have no way of knowing the first offence was considered a foul and a yellow card offence.

What differentiates the situation here is the fact the first yellow is a deliberate shove off the ball which Martinelli is going to be well aware is outside the laws of the game (even if he doesn't know it had been spotted). The second challenge then is one which stops an attack where I suspect he was planning to commit a professional foul and just take the yellow card.

 

I'd have sympathy with him if it was a situation where he might not know that he had committed two yellow card offences. However he's not tried to get the ball in either situation and is blatantly either gambling on taking the one yellow card for the two offences or is banking on the first offence having not been spotted. For that reason, the fact I think he's banking on not being penalised for a yellow card offence that he must know he's committed (rather not knowing he's committed one) means that I think the two yellow cards is appropriate. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by LondonBristolian

[cidered abroad]

34 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Really interesting debate to be had here… what are your thoughts?

 

At first glance it appears harsh but probably ok, but the more you consider some of the rules of the games the more murky it becomes… I’m still unsure!

Your thoughts?

YES . TWO BOOKABLE OFFENCES.

GOOD REFEREEING.

[exAtyeoMax]

Correct call

[WWred]

Do you carry out the second offense if you're already booked or know you're about to be booked though?

 

To much is happening retrospectively these days, it's the same principle as VAR. How long until somebody gets seriously injured despite there being a clear offside in the build up?

 

 

[1960maaan]

12 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

People also raising the fact that the purpose of a yellow card is to caution a player, how can you be unaware you’ve been cautioned?

Good point, but.
The first one is aggressive , raises his hands and pushes the guy to the ground. Plays advantage, the pass leads to an attack but promising attack? It's a throw , 20 yards in their own half so , question there. I'd say right to book him, and he obviously made his mind up to do so.

Second one, he's chased the guy 40 yards to kick him, definite booking. 

I think the Ref is right . Martinelli , the same as most players that try and hold up play, would know there is a chance of a booking. I think if the Ref had decided to book him for the first, then it's absolutely right if the player commits another bookable offence, that he gets another. If he doesn't the Ref's not doing his job. 

[KegCity]

Think it's fair enough according to the rules of the game. They're both bookable offences.

As others have said, a yellow is meant to be a caution. Think the "better" refereeing would have been a yellow and a strong word in the ear basically saying next one and you're gone. Martinelli and Arsenal can have no complaints mind.

[Engvall’s Splinter]

Good refereeing. Credit where it’s due. 

[Fordy62]

4 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Think it's fair enough according to the rules of the game. They're both bookable offences.

As others have said, a yellow is meant to be a caution. Think the "better" refereeing would have been a yellow and a strong word in the ear basically saying next one and you're gone. Martinelli and Arsenal can have no complaints mind.

I think that’s probably where I’m at. Whereas it was within the rules of the game, it was a little bit “look at me I’m the ref” and it lacked common sense. 

[DayRider1984]

8 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Good point, but.
The first one is aggressive , raises his hands and pushes the guy to the ground. Plays advantage, the pass leads to an attack but promising attack? It's a throw , 20 yards in their own half so , question there. I'd say right to book him, and he obviously made his mind up to do so.

Second one, he's chased the guy 40 yards to kick him, definite booking. 

I think the Ref is right . Martinelli , the same as most players that try and hold up play, would know there is a chance of a booking. I think if the Ref had decided to book him for the first, then it's absolutely right if the player commits another bookable offence, that he gets another. If he doesn't the Ref's not doing his job. 

He didn't run 40 yards to kick him, he nudged him in the back on a counter attack, hardly a kick but still a booking.

Both yellow card incidents but if the ref had only booked him once then no one would be talking about the fact he should of got 2.

[A Horse With No Name]

Playing devils advocate here, but if the offence at the throw in was a clear red card offence, ie a punch or shove to the face, would the ref have still waved play on, then red card him at the next stoppage, by which time the player could have had a hand in a goal for his own team. No, he would have stopped the game and issued the red, so why the difference in card colour. If Martinelli had known he was on a yellow, he wouldnt have committed the second foul.

[Super]

Had no idea what Ferdinand was going on about last night on BT sport. For me they are both yellow cards.

[grifty]

Wolves guy taking the throw should have been booked for being pushed on his arm and then throwing himself in the air.

[Riaz]

The referee has got it right.

But its slightly unfair, because the player is unaware he's on a yellow and maybe wouldnt have commited the foul if he had known he was.

[JoeAman08]

I am really trying to justify it not being a red but just can’t really. I think worth the discussion but both are such obvious yellows hard to argue. 

[Fordy62]

3 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

I am really trying to justify it not being a red but just can’t really. I think worth the discussion but both are such obvious yellows hard to argue. 

Well the first one is a massive dive isn’t it?

[elhombrecito]

16 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Well the first one is a massive dive isn’t it?

Does it matter? It's a bookable offence - how the other player reacts doesn't change that.