Hillsborough chants and football fans’ fading memories

[Antman]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2022/oct/25/david-squires-on-hillsborough-chants-and-football-fans-fading-memories

His strips are usually laugh out loud funny, but this one is so poignant and hits the nail on the head.

 

[Bizyer]

In my opinion he's right and its easy to forget with the passage of time that any of us who attended matches in the 70s and 80s could have been killed in similar circumstances.

[BTRFTG]

2 hours ago, Bizyer said:

In my opinion he's right and its easy to forget with the passage of time that any of us who attended matches in the 70s and 80s could have been killed in similar circumstances.

Killed by whom exactly? I can only think of one incident across europe in that period caused by 'fans behaviour' that resulted in multiple deaths and those fans happened to support, er,.......

[exAtyeoMax]

4 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Killed by whom exactly? I can only think of one incident across europe in that period caused by 'fans behaviour' that resulted in multiple deaths and those fans happened to support, er,.......

More likely because fans were literally caged in, not their behaviour 

 

[richwwtk]

12 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Killed by whom exactly? I can only think of one incident across europe in that period caused by 'fans behaviour' that resulted in multiple deaths and those fans happened to support, er,.......

Sorry Tony but that is an awful attitude.

Hillsbrough could have happened to any team. That was a combination of being caged in, a situation and the bloody awful police attitude to controlling football fans, Both things brought about by the behaviour of fans of EVERY club over the preceding decades.

Heysel was caused by a crumbling stadium. Fans surging at each other was nothing new on the terraces wherever you went in those days, and it was a poorly maintained wall collapsing under the pressure that killed people that evening.

[Son of Fred]

13 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Killed by whom exactly? I can only think of one incident across europe in that period caused by 'fans behaviour' that resulted in multiple deaths and those fans happened to support, er,.......

Shocking.

[BTRFTG]

8 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

More likely because fans were literally caged in, not their behaviour 

 

Fans were caged in BECAUSE of their behaviour.

[richwwtk]

3 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Fans were caged in BECAUSE of their behaviour.

The behaviour of fans of all clubs, not just Liverpool

[BTRFTG]

57 minutes ago, richwwtk said:

Sorry Tony but that is an awful attitude.

Hillsbrough could have happened to any team. That was a combination of being caged in, a situation and the bloody awful police attitude to controlling football fans, Both things brought about by the behaviour of fans of EVERY club over the preceding decades.

Heysel was caused by a crumbling stadium. Fans surging at each other was nothing new on the terraces wherever you went in those days, and it was a poorly maintained wall collapsing under the pressure that killed people that evening.

Blame everybody save ourselves, that's the way of the world these days.

Heysel may have been dilapidated but the wall wasn't designed to carry the weight of  the many Italians (and others) fleeing the battering the Scousers who'd entered that section of the terrace were intent on giving them. That's what caused the wall to collapse, folks fleeing for their safety because a bunch of lowlife thugs were intent on casing them harm. Doesn't fit the 'all Scousers are comic' narrative, does it?

And as everybody clearly avoids the obvious re Hillsbrough these days lets bring it closer to home. Try Roots Hall season opener 91. The game where as kick off neared hundreds of City fans were still outside pushing forward and pounding on the gates to be let in. Fans making all sorts of racket and threats, compressing those in front into the gates. Pretty much all under the influence, some looking to get in without paying. It was only by sheer luck that when the police opened the gates nobody stumbled to ground, though stumble all we did. Else anybody going to ground most likely would have been injured or killed by those following over the top of them. I should know as I was one of the fools at the front pounding the gates. Like those around me we'd all been too long in the sun and boozer. We'd all arrived a few minutes before 3pm. Had I been the one trampled it wouldn't have been by the police, or because Roots Hall was a dump, or because Southend had too few turnstiles open. Though those factors would have contributed to my injuries or death I'd have been injured or killed by fellow City fans, not intentionally meaning harm but culpable nevertheless in their, shall we say, heightened state? Injured or killed by fellow fans, or would we too have looked to blamed others than ourselves? Had I drunkenly trampled a fellow fan to death, I'm not sure how I'd rationalize my behaviour or live with myself.

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Son of Fred said:

Shocking.

Nobody answered the question. Killed by whom exactly?

[exAtyeoMax]

3 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Nobody answered the question. Killed by whom exactly?

by being caged in and unable to escape.

[richwwtk]

45 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Blame everybody save ourselves, that's the way of the world these days.

Heysel may have been dilapidated but the wall wasn't designed to carry the weight of  the many Italians (and others) fleeing the battering the Scousers who'd entered that section of the terrace were intent on giving them. That's what caused the wall to collapse, folks fleeing for their safety because a bunch of lowlife thugs were intent on casing them harm. Doesn't fit the 'all Scousers are comic' narrative, does it?

And as everybody clearly avoids the obvious re Hillsbrough these days lets bring it closer to home. Try Roots Hall season opener 91. The game where as kick off neared hundreds of City fans were still outside pushing forward and pounding on the gates to be let in. Fans making all sorts of racket and threats, compressing those in front into the gates. Pretty much all under the influence, some looking to get in without paying. It was only by sheer luck that when the police opened the gates nobody stumbled to ground, though stumble all we did. Else anybody going to ground most likely would have been injured or killed by those following over the top of them. I should know as I was one of the fools at the front pounding the gates. Like those around me we'd all been too long in the sun and boozer. We'd all arrived a few minutes before 3pm. Had I been the one trampled it wouldn't have been by the police, or because Roots Hall was a dump, or because Southend had too few turnstiles open. Though those factors would have contributed to my injuries or death I'd have been injured or killed by fellow City fans, not intentionally meaning harm but culpable nevertheless in their, shall we say, heightened state? Injured or killed by fellow fans, or would we too have looked to blamed others than ourselves? Had I drunkenly trampled a fellow fan to death, I'm not sure how I'd rationalize my behaviour or live with myself.

My point of view is a lot of these problems were indeed the fault of thuggish fans, if not Hillsbrough itself it was their previous behaviour that created the conditions that led to the tragedy, but it was a problem that affected all football at all (professional at least) levels, you cannot point the finger at just Liverpool fans.

I was at Roots Hall on that day as well, and it was maybe the scariest situation I've been in at a match. From memory there were steps leading down a grass bank to the turnstiles that exacerbated the situation?

I was also at Donnington the day that two people were trampled to death when Guns n Roses came on stage.

These situations can happen when large crowds of people are involved, and in a civilised society it is at least partly the responsibilty of the authorities to ensure that conditions are safe for everyone and you certainly cannot go placing the blame on individual members of the crowd.

[phantom]

Unbelievable after all this time people are so blind to so many facts

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

Blame everybody save ourselves, that's the way of the world these days.

Heysel may have been dilapidated but the wall wasn't designed to carry the weight of  the many Italians (and others) fleeing the battering the Scousers who'd entered that section of the terrace were intent on giving them. That's what caused the wall to collapse, folks fleeing for their safety because a bunch of lowlife thugs were intent on casing them harm. Doesn't fit the 'all Scousers are comic' narrative, does it?

And as everybody clearly avoids the obvious re Hillsbrough these days lets bring it closer to home. Try Roots Hall season opener 91. The game where as kick off neared hundreds of City fans were still outside pushing forward and pounding on the gates to be let in. Fans making all sorts of racket and threats, compressing those in front into the gates. Pretty much all under the influence, some looking to get in without paying. It was only by sheer luck that when the police opened the gates nobody stumbled to ground, though stumble all we did. Else anybody going to ground most likely would have been injured or killed by those following over the top of them. I should know as I was one of the fools at the front pounding the gates. Like those around me we'd all been too long in the sun and boozer. We'd all arrived a few minutes before 3pm. Had I been the one trampled it wouldn't have been by the police, or because Roots Hall was a dump, or because Southend had too few turnstiles open. Though those factors would have contributed to my injuries or death I'd have been injured or killed by fellow City fans, not intentionally meaning harm but culpable nevertheless in their, shall we say, heightened state? Injured or killed by fellow fans, or would we too have looked to blamed others than ourselves? Had I drunkenly trampled a fellow fan to death, I'm not sure how I'd rationalize my behaviour or live with myself.

I am curious to know..........what is it that everybody, obviously clearly avoids re Hillsborough?

[BTRFTG]

2 hours ago, richwwtk said:

From memory there were steps leading down a grass bank to the turnstiles that exacerbated the situation?

It was large, wide flat entrance from the car park, level ground and that's why a serious incident was avoided. My point being there shouldn't have been the remotest chance of an incident occurring and it was only my and others behaviour that caused it.

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, maxjak said:

I am curious to know..........what is it that everybody, obviously clearly avoids re Hillsborough?

That the innocents who died, those who had tickets and were in the ground early, were killed by those piling in late. Fans who weren't being forced into the ground under duress, rather fans who selfishly forced themselves forward at others expense. Some without tickets, some under the influence. Fans who appear in multiple videos yet strangely who never came forward to identify themselves. These days its tantamount to heresy to suggest it was those fans pushing forward who killed their fellow supporters.

[richwwtk]

14 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

That the innocents who died, those who had tickets and were in the ground early, were killed by those piling in late. Fans who weren't being forced into the ground under duress, rather fans who selfishly forced themselves forward at others expense. Some without tickets, some under the influence. Fans who appear in multiple videos yet strangely who never came forward to identify themselves. These days its tantamount to heresy to suggest it was those fans pushing forward who killed their fellow supporters.

To try and make those fans responsible for the deaths that day is not a good look. 

They were acting no differently to the way fans of any club would have done that day, what they did was completely in line with the culture of the day. It has been shown time and again that the cause of the tragedy was the incompetence of the police in dealing effectively with the crowd, a crowd that could easily have been predicted and dealt with by authorities that didn't regard football fans as scum. 

The people at the back of the crowd trying to get in were no less innocent than those at the front having their lives extinguished. 

This was a failing of the football culture of the time, both amongst fans and police. A culture that existed because of the thuggish behaviour of fans of all clubs for decades previously. 

Of course, those 'naughty' awayday fans from back then are lauded as 'top lads' amongst a largish, thankfully ageing, minority on this forum and around football in general. Ultimately it is those 'top lads' that are responsible indirectly for the deaths at both Hillsbrough and Heysel. 

[richwwtk]

32 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

It was large, wide flat entrance from the car park, level ground and that's why a serious incident was avoided. My point being there shouldn't have been the remotest chance of an incident occurring and it was only my and others behaviour that caused it.

Apologies, it must be a different ground I am thinking of with similar circumstances, the game I am thinking of was the first day of the season around the mid nineties from memory? 

[HitchinRed]

I also happen to believe that the police made decisions on the day with the best intentions. Given the environment around football support at the time, I think there was  a real risk of crowd trouble outside the ground and of people getting hurt if they didn’t open the gates . Therefore, they thought the safest (least riskiest) thing to do would be to let them into the ground.  It was a terrible decision to have to make, and with hindsight the wrong decision, but one made with the right intention. As BTRFTG said, the police didn’t crush anyone - but they did fail to prevent one.

What is really unforgivable though is the cover up that happened afterwards.

[phantom]

55 minutes ago, HitchinRed said:

I also happen to believe that the police made decisions on the day with the best intentions. Given the environment around football support at the time, I think there was  a real risk of crowd trouble outside the ground and of people getting hurt if they didn’t open the gates . Therefore, they thought the safest (least riskiest) thing to do would be to let them into the ground.  It was a terrible decision to have to make, and with hindsight the wrong decision, but one made with the right intention. As BTRFTG said, the police didn’t crush anyone - but they did fail to prevent one.

What is really unforgivable though is the cover up that happened afterwards.

Didn't the same thing happen at the semi final the season before but luckily there were no deaths? 

[East Londoner]

1 hour ago, HitchinRed said:

I also happen to believe that the police made decisions on the day with the best intentions. Given the environment around football support at the time, I think there was  a real risk of crowd trouble outside the ground and of people getting hurt if they didn’t open the gates . Therefore, they thought the safest (least riskiest) thing to do would be to let them into the ground.  It was a terrible decision to have to make, and with hindsight the wrong decision, but one made with the right intention. As BTRFTG said, the police didn’t crush anyone - but they did fail to prevent one.

What is really unforgivable though is the cover up that happened afterwards.

It was policed by someone who’d only been in the job a month and who’d never policed a major football match before. So in a sense he was set up to fail but arrogance both on his part and SYP played a very big part in what transpired 

 

33 minutes ago, phantom said:

Didn't the same thing happen at the semi final the season before but luckily there were no deaths? 

Having read the independent panels report the previous year was uncomfortable and some people got pulled up into the seats above but the major difference was police were organised the year before and operated a filter system outside the stadium meaning what occurred at the turnstiles before the game never happened 

I’d urge anyone who still blindly thinks that hillsborough was the fault of the fans to download the independent panels report some of it is very eye opening about how it could've been any teams supporters that day 

[maxjak]

5 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

That the innocents who died, those who had tickets and were in the ground early, were killed by those piling in late. Fans who weren't being forced into the ground under duress, rather fans who selfishly forced themselves forward at others expense. Some without tickets, some under the influence. Fans who appear in multiple videos yet strangely who never came forward to identify themselves. These days its tantamount to heresy to suggest it was those fans pushing forward who killed their fellow supporters.

Have you bothered to take the time to read Justice Taylor's report  ...       ......or do you just prefer to live within the land of your own blinkered prejudice?

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, HitchinRed said:

I also happen to believe that the police made decisions on the day with the best intentions. Given the environment around football support at the time, I think there was  a real risk of crowd trouble outside the ground and of people getting hurt if they didn’t open the gates . Therefore, they thought the safest (least riskiest) thing to do would be to let them into the ground.  It was a terrible decision to have to make, and with hindsight the wrong decision, but one made with the right intention. As BTRFTG said, the police didn’t crush anyone - but they did fail to prevent one.

What is really unforgivable though is the cover up that happened afterwards.

How can you possibly know that it was made with the best of intentions?

[sticks 1969]

I have 2 good friends who were at Heysel there take on the day was quite interesting 

[slartibartfast]

Changing the subject slightly, mid 80's ,Champion Hill, Corinthian Casuals v City.  Trying to get out through one exit, an extra large City following (considering it was only an early round FA Cup tie). It was the nearest I'd came to thinking I'd be crushed to death! I was no "8 stone weakling" but my feet were off the ground and I couldn't breath, just being swept along in a tide of angry bodies, all trying to get to Millwall fans who thought they would come and "take in a game" .     Fortunately just when I thought I was going to pass out/away, the mass exploded out on to the pavement, and though shaken I was relatively unharmed, but it could have turned out much worse..........and I wasn't the only one who felt the same !       

 

My point being, it could have happened anywhere, given the conditions that BTR espoused . 

Edited October 26, 2022 by slartibartfast

[Lanterne Rouge]

9 minutes ago, slartibartfast said:

Changing the subject slightly, mid 80's ,Champion Hill, Corinthian Casuals v City.  Trying to get out through one exit, an extra large City following (considering it was only an early round FA Cup tie). It was the nearest I'd came to thinking I'd be crushed to death! I was no "8 stone weakling" but my feet were off the ground and I couldn't breath, just being swept along in a tide of angry bodies, all trying to get to Millwall fans who thought they would come and "take in a game" .     Fortunately just when I thought I was going to pass out/away, the mass exploded out on to the pavement, and though shaken I was relatively unharmed, but it could have turned out much worse..........and I wasn't the only one who felt the same !        

Remember it well. very scary and only one amongst many similar back then.

[phantom]

3 hours ago, East Londoner said:

It was policed by someone who’d only been in the job a month and who’d never policed a major football match before. So in a sense he was set up to fail but arrogance both on his part and SYP played a very big part in what transpired 

 

Having read the independent panels report the previous year was uncomfortable and some people got pulled up into the seats above but the major difference was police were organised the year before and operated a filter system outside the stadium meaning what occurred at the turnstiles before the game never happened 

I’d urge anyone who still blindly thinks that hillsborough was the fault of the fans to download the independent panels report some of it is very eye opening about how it could've been any teams supporters that day 

This is the summary of the report mentioned above, definitely an eye opener to read 

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20211204013957/http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/Section-1/summary/

It mentions the Spurs game the year before in this report, it reads like the only reason disaster was averted that day was because there were not individual pens fenced off behind the goal and people were able to escape by moving sideways 

[HitchinRed]

3 hours ago, maxjak said:

How can you possibly know that it was made with the best of intentions?

It’s a belief, not a statement of fact. I refuse to believe that the police acted in a way to deliberately endanger lives or knowingly aware that a crush would happen.

[Eddie Hitler]

5 hours ago, HitchinRed said:

I also happen to believe that the police made decisions on the day with the best intentions. Given the environment around football support at the time, I think there was  a real risk of crowd trouble outside the ground and of people getting hurt if they didn’t open the gates . Therefore, they thought the safest (least riskiest) thing to do would be to let them into the ground.  It was a terrible decision to have to make, and with hindsight the wrong decision, but one made with the right intention. As BTRFTG said, the police didn’t crush anyone - but they did fail to prevent one.

What is really unforgivable though is the cover up that happened afterwards.

 

I'd say that the "best of intentions" isn't really an appropriate phrase; rather the crush was caused by the police officer in charge of security for that game being new to the role, not understanding the layout of the ground and choosing what he saw as the least-worst option: avoidng a potential crush at the entry gates by having them opened and allowing the fans to stream in.

Without stewarding to direct the late fans streaming into the entrances to the two side areas to the stand, which were not obvious, they simply poured into the central entrance which meant that the numbers in that part of the stand massively exceeded capacity and that sheer weight of numbers pushing in from the back crushed to death the people at the front against the steel cage which was thought appropriate for containing football fans in those years.

At the time the police officer claimed that the Liverpool fans were drunk and had forced the gates and with memories of Heysel fresh in people's minds that lie was widely believed.  At the time I believed it and so did everyone else whenever it was discussed.  And that is certainly how it appeared.  Brian Clough said that the dead LIverpool fans had been killed by that actions of drunk Liverpool football fans; like the rest of us he believed the police officer's lie because he had no reason to doubt it.

[HitchinRed]

7 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

I'd say that the "best of intentions" isn't really an appropriate phrase; rather the crush was caused by the police officer in charge of security for that game being new to the role, not understanding the layout of the ground and choosing what he saw as the least-worst option: avoidng a potential crush at the entry gates by having them opened and allowing the fans to stream in

.. and I wouldn’t say that ‘the crush was caused by the police’. They failed to prevent the crush, but they didn’t actually crush anyone. 

It does sound like we agree though that those involved in the subsequent lies and cover up are simply evil.