Hillsborough chants and football fans’ fading memories

[Eddie Hitler]

14 minutes ago, HitchinRed said:

.. and I wouldn’t say that ‘the crush was caused by the police’. They failed to prevent the crush, but they didn’t actually crush anyone. 

It does sound like we agree though that those involved in the subsequent lies and cover up are simply evil.

 

Yes. 

[spudski]

It's a very emotive subject...a tragedy that shouldn't have happened.

Human error from nearly every aspect.

The lies and deceit by Police and Media ignited the tragedy even more so. 

'Blame' for what happened on the day...it's an awful thing. 

It's human nature to find blame and fault.

Like most fans who've experienced being crushed during the 70s and 80s...it sticks in your mind. You can't move, you can't breath, the pressure and panic building. You certainly don't forget it. The same with 'Policing'...many an experience I'd rather forget, but have learned from... especially abroad.

I now find from those ' experiences' that I don't trust being ' controlled or policed' or take for granted the safety aspect of a venue I'm in. You are leaving yourself open to human error and judgement.

It's especially exasipated when there are large crowds, tensions/ passions high, alcohol and drugs involved. 

All reason and judgement goes out of the window. People become sheep...they stop thinking for themselves, and judgement goes out of the window. They rely on what they are being told, directed to wherever...no thought of their own. Completely controlled and policed. Like a shepherd with his sheep. 

When you are in that state, of complete dependence on what others are telling you...without taking control of your own actions and thoughts/ gut instincts...then you leave yourself open to human error and mistakes.

From my experience...I never take for granted what I'm told is safe by those ' controlling an event.

It's best to take the info on board, but also use your own judgement. 

Don't just be controlled like a sheep. Keep your wits about you. Make judgements and control your own actions. 

Don't join over crowded areas. Don't push. Behave responsible for your own actions and the actions that affect  others. 

If we all took some time to be responsible for our own actions and not just rely on being controlled and policed, there would be far less problems. 

We can learn a lot from the mistakes made by many across the board over the years. As individuals, authority, organisation or establishment. They are all human and open to error.

 

[BTRFTG]

18 hours ago, maxjak said:

Have you bothered to take the time to read Justice Taylor's report  ...       ......or do you just prefer to live within the land of your own blinkered prejudice?

In work, part of my role was to facilitate the Inquiry so yes, I am au fait with the findings. The criticisms of the Police and local authorities post incident were detailed and justified. Attribution of responsibility for the deaths, as per the ToR, resulted in an all too predictable whitewash.

What the cartoon highlights is an unpalatable truth that football fans sing 'that' song because its based in truth. Not only have the Scousers failed to accept culpability in any of the deaths and incidents that follow them, they attempted to present themselves as paragons of virtue. That fools nobody. Until they accept an element of responsibility in the troubles they've caused then the matter will never be fully resolved and some will continue to sing 'that' song. Prejudice would be to believe only Scousers with tickets attempt to enter matches, that none are worse for wear having not visited the boozer beforehand, that all are polite and impeccably behaved. Had you ever followed England abroad you'd know why they developed their reputation.

[BTRFTG]

18 hours ago, slartibartfast said:

Changing the subject slightly, mid 80's ,Champion Hill, Corinthian Casuals v City.  Trying to get out through one exit, an extra large City following (considering it was only an early round FA Cup tie). It was the nearest I'd came to thinking I'd be crushed to death! I was no "8 stone weakling" but my feet were off the ground and I couldn't breath, just being swept along in a tide of angry bodies, all trying to get to Millwall fans who thought they would come and "take in a game" .     Fortunately just when I thought I was going to pass out/away, the mass exploded out on to the pavement, and though shaken I was relatively unharmed, but it could have turned out much worse..........and I wasn't the only one who felt the same !       

 

My point being, it could have happened anywhere, given the conditions that BTR espoused . 

Funny that Slarti as I recall strolling into Dog Kennel Hill and there not being that many there pre kick-off. Other than the then stand the other 3 sides of the stadium we were free to stroll around. The only 'compression' on the terrace was around 10 minutes into the match when The Wall turned up and City fled en masse from the entrance a la Juve at Heysel. Once regrouped there was the usual 20 minute farcical stand-off with both sets of fans shouting threats and insults at each other over the heads of a handful of coppers who couldn't have stopped a fracas had one ever threatened. If memory serves long before halftime The Wall, having made their point, left and returned to The Boozer by the station.

[slartibartfast]

4 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Funny that Slarti as I recall strolling into Dog Kennel Hill and there not being that many there pre kick-off. Other than the then stand the other 3 sides of the stadium we were free to stroll around. The only 'compression' on the terrace was around 10 minutes into the match when The Wall turned up and City fled en masse from the entrance a la Juve at Heysel. Once regrouped there was the usual 20 minute farcical stand-off with both sets of fans shouting threats and insults at each other over the heads of a handful of coppers who couldn't have stopped a fracas had one ever threatened. If memory serves long before halftime The Wall, having made their point, left and returned to The Boozer by the station.

And a lot of gravel !    Yes it was a big ground for their (Dulwich H) level the covered side reminded me of a grassy ,scaled down Bob Bank .      But at the end (as others have testified) it was a bloody scary crush .

Edited October 27, 2022 by slartibartfast

[MarcusX]

22 hours ago, slartibartfast said:

Changing the subject slightly, mid 80's ,Champion Hill, Corinthian Casuals v City.  Trying to get out through one exit, an extra large City following (considering it was only an early round FA Cup tie). It was the nearest I'd came to thinking I'd be crushed to death! I was no "8 stone weakling" but my feet were off the ground and I couldn't breath, just being swept along in a tide of angry bodies, all trying to get to Millwall fans who thought they would come and "take in a game" .     Fortunately just when I thought I was going to pass out/away, the mass exploded out on to the pavement, and though shaken I was relatively unharmed, but it could have turned out much worse..........and I wasn't the only one who felt the same !       

 

My point being, it could have happened anywhere, given the conditions that BTR espoused . 

Not quite the same, but at Glastonbury this year there were a couple of occasions like this.

The worst was the Sunday when Diana Ross was on, obviously not a "racous" performance,  however the sheer number of people in one space was unbelievable and it was prime time for people trying to leave the festival too. There were points where as far as the eye could see everyone was shoulder to shoulder like sardines and impossible to move or even breathe properly at times.

My point is, it doesn't just happen at football and it doesn't just have to be "angry" or aggresive people, just too many people in one place at one time.

[MarcusX]

I think it's worth noting that this topic came up again because of accusations against Forest fans last weekend, yet as far as I know, no evidence has surfaced of this?

[Portland Bill]

On 26/10/2022 at 13:03, BTRFTG said:

That the innocents who died, those who had tickets and were in the ground early, were killed by those piling in late. Fans who weren't being forced into the ground under duress, rather fans who selfishly forced themselves forward at others expense. Some without tickets, some under the influence. Fans who appear in multiple videos yet strangely who never came forward to identify themselves. These days its tantamount to heresy to suggest it was those fans pushing forward who killed their fellow supporters.

You clearly don’t understand what actually happened. You clearly don’t understand that the outside “pens” were nowhere near full. But the supporters were directed to the central pen that was 100% full. 
The ground didn’t even have a safety certificate ffs.

 

[Portland Bill]

4 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Funny that Slarti as I recall strolling into Dog Kennel Hill and there not being that many there pre kick-off. Other than the then stand the other 3 sides of the stadium we were free to stroll around. The only 'compression' on the terrace was around 10 minutes into the match when The Wall turned up and City fled en masse from the entrance a la Juve at Heysel. Once regrouped there was the usual 20 minute farcical stand-off with both sets of fans shouting threats and insults at each other over the heads of a handful of coppers who couldn't have stopped a fracas had one ever threatened. If memory serves long before halftime The Wall, having made their point, left and returned to The Boozer by the station.

Crikey mate, it kicked off for a good 10 minutes halfway through the first half. Everything was happening, the terrace floor was made of cinders/gravel/stones, most of it ended up in a different place, as it was being thrown by both mobs. pool balls were flying around everywhere, and hand to hand fighting was rife. 

Millwall were in the ground the whole 90 minutes, some City that used the toilets got beat up badly, and one ( at least ) got cut up badly with a knife.

The trouble continued after the game.

Did you actually go!.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Portland Bill

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

Not quite the same, but at Glastonbury this year there were a couple of occasions like this.

The worst was the Sunday when Diana Ross was on, obviously not a "racous" performance,  however the sheer number of people in one space was unbelievable and it was prime time for people trying to leave the festival too. There were points where as far as the eye could see everyone was shoulder to shoulder like sardines and impossible to move or even breathe properly at times.

My point is, it doesn't just happen at football and it doesn't just have to be "angry" or aggresive people, just too many people in one place at one time.

You are making a tenuous comparison  of Diana Ross at Glastonbury to Hillsborough?       Upside Down? Ok?          

[maxjak]

21 hours ago, HitchinRed said:

It’s a belief, not a statement of fact. I refuse to believe that the police acted in a way to deliberately endanger lives or knowingly aware that a crush would happen.

No you are correct.....                   their disregard for the safety of human beings was merely down to stupidity and ignorance?   Of course they didn't set out to deliberately   kill people, it was just down to their inability to do the job they were being paid for, and their prejudice's and incompetence.  The fact that they were too ignorant and blinkered   to realise that they were endangering peoples's lives was purely coincidentaL

[BTRFTG]

14 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

You clearly don’t understand what actually happened. You clearly don’t understand that the outside “pens” were nowhere near full. But the supporters were directed to the central pen that was 100% full. 
The ground didn’t even have a safety certificate ffs.

 

Fans weren't 'directed'. The evidence showed that once the gates were opened fans rushed to the nearest entrance point to get onto the terrace for fear of missing the kick-off. By then police had lost all semblance of control outside the ground and entrance, for which they were later criticised. Those pushing forward where there clearly was no room? Go on, dare mention them....

Its disgraceful Hillsbrough was allowed to host the fixture given its lack of full accreditation but paperwork, or lack of, didn't kill 96 supporters. Supporters pushing forward killed those at the front. Do you believe fans would have behaved differently had they known the safety certificate wasn't current?

Same happens every week when City are away. Tickets have entrance gates listed, block entrances, row and seat numbers. And does anybody follow their terms of admittance? As the F'wits chant: "We're Bristol City, we do what we want..." Thankfully, rarely such attitudes have dire consequence.

[Portland Bill]

3 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Fans weren't 'directed'. The evidence showed that once the gates were opened fans rushed to the nearest entrance point to get onto the terrace for fear of missing the kick-off. By then police had lost all semblance of control outside the ground and entrance, for which they were later criticised. Those pushing forward where there clearly was no room? Go on, dare mention them....

Its disgraceful Hillsbrough was allowed to host the fixture given its lack of full accreditation but paperwork, or lack of, didn't kill 96 supporters. Supporters pushing forward killed those at the front. Do you believe fans would have behaved differently had they known the safety certificate wasn't current?

Same happens every week when City are away. Tickets have entrance gates listed, block entrances, row and seat numbers. And does anybody follow their terms of admittance? As the F'wits chant: "We're Bristol City, we do what we want..." Thankfully, rarely such attitudes have dire consequence.

Very much the same happened in 1981 at the Spurs v Wolves semi, 1987, Sheff wed v Coventry in the cup quarter final, and Coventry v Leeds semi final. All three games had serious injuries, but thankfully no deaths. All because of the lay out of the ground. But you want to blame Liverpool fans?.

This is from the official enquiry 

People entering were unaware of the problems at the fence; police or stewards usually stood at the entrance to the tunnel and, when the central pens reached capacity, directed fans to the side pens, but on this occasion, for reasons not fully explained, they did not.^[43]

 

 

[richwwtk]

6 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Fans weren't 'directed'. The evidence showed that once the gates were opened fans rushed to the nearest entrance point to get onto the terrace for fear of missing the kick-off. By then police had lost all semblance of control outside the ground and entrance, for which they were later criticised. Those pushing forward where there clearly was no room? Go on, dare mention them....

Its disgraceful Hillsbrough was allowed to host the fixture given its lack of full accreditation but paperwork, or lack of, didn't kill 96 supporters. Supporters pushing forward killed those at the front. Do you believe fans would have behaved differently had they known the safety certificate wasn't current?

Same happens every week when City are away. Tickets have entrance gates listed, block entrances, row and seat numbers. And does anybody follow their terms of admittance? As the F'wits chant: "We're Bristol City, we do what we want..." Thankfully, rarely such attitudes have dire consequence.

So you've gone from blaming Liverpool to agreeing it could have happened to any club? 

Nice to see you have accepted that and accordingly adjusted your viewpoint. 

[BTRFTG]

39 minutes ago, richwwtk said:

So you've gone from blaming Liverpool to agreeing it could have happened to any club? 

Nice to see you have accepted that and accordingly adjusted your viewpoint. 

No I dont believe it could have happened to any club. That's why I posed  the question nobody has yet answered. That fact remains in the period it happened only twice in Europe, with the same club involved in both incidents. That club has a reputation for fans without tickets attempting (often successfully,) to gain admittance. They've continued to do so in recent years despite their clamour for 'justice' (sic). Repeating deadly errors from the past - a funny way of showing respect, don't you  think?

 

[Miah Dennehy]

19 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

No I dont believe it could have happened to any club. That's why I posed  the question nobody has yet answered. That fact remains in the period it happened only twice in Europe, with the same club involved in both incidents. That club has a reputation for fans without tickets attempting (often successfully,) to gain admittance. They've continued to do so in recent years despite their clamour for 'justice' (sic). Repeating deadly errors from the past - a funny way of showing respect, don't you  think?

 

There were plenty of supporters of other clubs at Heysel, including Bristol City. More and more the city of Liverpool seems to be considered 'fair game'. Sinister stuff.

[BTRFTG]

3 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Very much the same happened in 1981 at the Spurs v Wolves semi, 1987, Sheff wed v Coventry in the cup quarter final, and Coventry v Leeds semi final. All three games had serious injuries, but thankfully no deaths. All because of the lay out of the ground. But you want to blame Liverpool fans?.

This is from the official enquiry 

People entering were unaware of the problems at the fence; police or stewards usually stood at the entrance to the tunnel and, when the central pens reached capacity, directed fans to the side pens, but on this occasion, for reasons not fully explained, they did not.^[43]

 

 

You previously stated fans were directed into the central section of the terrace. As the section of the report you've quoted confirms,  this was not the case. I believe both police and stadium officials later claimed command and control was lost owing to the sheer volume of incidents at that end of the stadium overwhelming them. Its true they subsequently claimed much that transpired to be false but if 'direction' was such a key factor in the report why didn't the inquiry fully determine its omission, or didn't that suit?

The common factor in the other incidents referenced was on those occasions the perimeter gates into the stadium were NOT opened, as the assessed risk was considered they need not be. It was the key decision they used to hang the stadium commander. As the report highlights, rightly or wrongly (hindsight's a wonderful thing,) the police commander took the decision to open the gates as he considered the volume and behaviour of supporters pressing against the gates gave concern to injuries and deaths arising outside the stadium. The commander in City's case at Roots Hall, more by luck than judgement, called it correct, with nobody injured.

Its also worth remembering that Forest fans at the other end of Hillsborough had no safety certificate, enclosed, dilapidated terraces, albeit with a slightly greater capacity & marginally easier transit to the ground yet didn't encounter problems. 

[Portland Bill]

22 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

No I dont believe it could have happened to any club. That's why I posed  the question nobody has yet answered. That fact remains in the period it happened only twice in Europe, with the same club involved in both incidents. That club has a reputation for fans without tickets attempting (often successfully,) to gain admittance. They've continued to do so in recent years despite their clamour for 'justice' (sic). Repeating deadly errors from the past - a funny way of showing respect, don't you  think?

 

So the fact the same thing happened at the same stadium, in games between Spurs and Wolves in 81, Sheff Wed v Coventry AND Coventry v Leeds in 87 ( except for deaths). Still gives you thoughts that it couldn’t have happened to any other club than Liverpool?

Why didn’t the same thing happen when the two teams ( Liverpool and Forrest )  met at the same ground in the semi final the previous season?.

 

[Portland Bill]

2 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

You previously stated fans were directed into the central section of the terrace. As the section of the report you've quoted confirms,  this was not the case. I believe both police and stadium officials later claimed command and control was lost owing to the sheer volume of incidents at that end of the stadium overwhelming them. Its true they subsequently claimed much that transpired to be false but if 'direction' was such a key factor in the report why didn't the inquiry fully determine its omission, or didn't that suit?

The common factor in the other incidents referenced was on those occasions the perimeter gates into the stadium were NOT opened, as the assessed risk was considered they need not be. It was the key decision they used to hang the stadium commander. As the report highlights, rightly or wrongly (hindsight's a wonderful thing,) the police commander took the decision to open the gates as he considered the volume and behaviour of supporters pressing against the gates gave concern to injuries and deaths arising outside the stadium. The commander in City's case at Roots Hall, more by luck than judgement, called it correct, with nobody injured.

Its also worth remembering that Forest fans at the other end of Hillsborough had no safety certificate, enclosed, dilapidated terraces, albeit with a slightly greater capacity & marginally easier transit to the ground yet didn't encounter problems. 

In response to your last paragraph.

Nor did any instances happen at that end in Sheffield Wednesdays 20 plus home games. The lay out and directional signs at the other end were the problem. As illustrated in 82 and 87. But they weren’t scousers, so I guess that didn’t matter

[BTRFTG]

7 minutes ago, Miah Dennehy said:

There were plenty of supporters of other clubs at Heysel, including Bristol City. More and more the city of Liverpool seems to be considered 'fair game'. Sinister stuff.

Nothing sinister. The Heysel thug ringleaders at that end of the stadium were identified. Extradition procedures saw around two thirds of those requested extradited to Belgium. Of those, 14 were found guilty and imprisoned. Those for whom extradition was requested, those prosecuted and jailed - ALL were Liverpool supporters. 

 

[Miah Dennehy]

6 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Nothing sinister. The Heysel thug ringleaders at that end of the stadium were identified. Extradition procedures saw around two thirds of those requested extradited to Belgium. Of those, 14 were found guilty and imprisoned. Those for whom extradition was requested, those prosecuted and jailed - ALL were Liverpool supporters. 

 

I can't swear to this, others on here maybe able to confirm my memories. I thought at least one City fan was extradited, or at least attempts were made to do so, I do know his name, though I'm not happy about putting it on here and he travelled to the game with one other very well known City fan at the time who I was quite friendly with.

I think your wider point that football fans must take SOME responsibility for SOME tragedies over the years, but the insinuation that being born in a particular city and following a particular team gives you a propensity to behave in a particular IS sinister and dangerous.