Our Academy

[David Brent]

22 minutes ago, Rob k said:

You have to be good enough to play, Lloyd Kelly got picked as he was good enough,  who’s left the club from that period under LJ where you have thought we really got it wrong? 

Any of them may have prospered if given the opportunity but it was always easy to buy another player 

[Rob k]

3 minutes ago, David Brent said:

Any of them may have prospered if given the opportunity but it was always easy to buy another player 

Who? You can’t beat someone with a stick if you have no idea if there were any players ready to make the step up? As said, Lloyd Kelly got an opportunity as did a couple of others but i don’t see any glaring mistakes from when he was here. 

[David Brent]

2 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Who? You can’t beat someone with a stick if you have no idea if there were any players ready to make the step up? As said, Lloyd Kelly got an opportunity as did a couple of others but i don’t see any glaring mistakes from when he was here. 

Literally anyone…

It was an observation on a manager who didn’t have to give opportunities to academy players.

Had Conway and Scott not had their opportunity they would be playing in the under 23s or even moved on …not many would be calling for them to play

[Alessandro]

1 hour ago, David Brent said:

We never got to find out if they were good enough.

Pity he had the luxury of signing yet another player.

How many youth players can you name that came through academy during LJ’s tenure that you believe he didn’t give any/many chances - who’ve gone on to prove him wrong elsewhere, out of interest? 
 

EDIT - sorry someone else has already asked you and yeah, as suspected, not one name.

 

I can name Burns, Morrell, Akinde, Rory Holden, McCaulsky, De Girolimo off top of head of the kind of equivalent quality - incomparable to the quality we’re developing now.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Alessandro

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, richwwtk said:

I am in my 39th season watching City and cannot think of one - has there ever been a time when we were playing as many youth products in the first team as now?

Just a few years before your time, but Alan Dicks’ promotion winning team had a fair few youth players.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, David Brent said:

Any of them may have prospered if given the opportunity but it was always easy to buy another player 

….and not play them either!

39 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

How many youth players can you name that came through academy during LJ’s tenure that you believe he didn’t give any/many chances - who’ve gone on to prove him wrong elsewhere, out of interest? 

Playing Devil’s advocate…I guess it makes no difference what has happened to a player afterwards, lack of opportunity at the right time might be the reason they didn’t prosper here.  As for examples…

i think he could’ve used Joe Morrell more, it could’ve been the making of him playing with Pack or Smith or Brownhill to give one a rest.

Zak Vyner too.  Played 30-odd games in the Champ for Rotherham then got sent to Aberdeen.

Yes, not a huge amount of capable players, but we also spent money bringing in “Academy” age players to fill the gap, Hinds, Bakinson, Moore, J.Smith.  Moore did get a go in fairness, but only after a good few loans.

I’ve not included Pring or Nurse as they weren’t really under consideration at that point.  But maybe they could’ve been fast-tracked in the right environment.

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Davefevs

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, Rob k said:

Who? You can’t beat someone with a stick if you have no idea if there were any players ready to make the step up? As said, Lloyd Kelly got an opportunity as did a couple of others but i don’t see any glaring mistakes from when he was here. 

Lloyd Kelly was a gem at City long before LJ arrived. And even then the stupid thing signed Dasilva instead of playing Kelly. Total waste of space was LJ!

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Lloyd Kelly was a gem at City long before LJ arrived. And even then the stupid thing signed Dasilva instead of playing Kelly. Total waste of space was LJ!

Yep, Cotts took Kelly to Portugal with him pre-season 2015, think he was still 16.  I watched him at Ironmould Lane in the Community game and he looked better than Derrick Williams!

[Rob k]

9 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Lloyd Kelly was a gem at City long before LJ arrived. And even then the stupid thing signed Dasilva instead of playing Kelly. Total waste of space was LJ!

Ok so you can say that all these players getting a chance here now were here long before NP 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Rob k

[David Brent]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

How many youth players can you name that came through academy during LJ’s tenure that you believe he didn’t give any/many chances - who’ve gone on to prove him wrong elsewhere, out of interest? 
 

EDIT - sorry someone else has already asked you and yeah, as suspected, not one name.

 

I can name Burns, Morrell, Akinde, Rory Holden, McCaulsky, De Girolimo off top of head of the kind of equivalent quality - incomparable to the quality we’re developing now.

Someone has answered much better than I can.

That’s that put to bed 

[Hxj]

44 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Ok so you can say that all these players getting a chance here now were here long before NP 

Conwy joined when Gary Johnson was still manager.  Doubt either knew much about the other at the time.  The fruits of those joining under Pearson may not be seen until well into the mid to late 2030s.   The Academy process is long term.

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, Cotts took Kelly to Portugal with him pre-season 2015, think he was still 16.  I watched him at Ironmould Lane in the Community game and he looked better than Derrick Williams!

That 2015 pre season I saw City away at Taunton. Back three of O'Leary, Vyner and Kelly. They have all made it with differing success.

[Davefevs]

I think what we need to be clear about is that the Academy do a v.good job in the main of developing players in their early years.  It’s largely irrelevant who was first team manager when a youngster joins at 8 for example.

When they get around 18/19 (some earlier, some later) that’s when they have have to 1) show what they can do and 2) need to be given a chance.

The link between Nige, Tins and Academy is really strong.  We heard Tins (at the fans forum) say about the almost daily conversations re which players are needed to join in first team training.  Some stay, some are asked by name for future sessions.  It’s not all about the appearance in the first team, it’s the progression from u21s into first team training initially.  I never thought Benarous was anywhere near getting on the pitch last season, but he spends a couple of months with the first team training group, and when he gets his chance (not Barnsley sub!!) he is able to take it.  That’s what’s looking good at the mo’, that bond…and the opportunity.

I still go back to my “one loan too many?” article I wrote for the BP, and thought that we took too long to give players a chance.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Davefevs

[Alessandro]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

….and not play them either!

Playing Devil’s advocate…I guess it makes no difference what has happened to a player afterwards, lack of opportunity at the right time might be the reason they didn’t prosper here.  As for examples…

i think he could’ve used Joe Morrell more, it could’ve been the making of him playing with Pack or Smith or Brownhill to give one a rest.

Zak Vyner too.  Played 30-odd games in the Champ for Rotherham then got sent to Aberdeen.

Yes, not a huge amount of capable players, but we also spent money bringing in “Academy” age players to fill the gap, Hinds, Bakinson, Moore, J.Smith.  Moore did get a go in fairness, but only after a good few loans.

I’ve not included Pring or Nurse as they weren’t really under consideration at that point.  But maybe they could’ve been fast-tracked in the right environment.

 

I understand playing devil’s advocate - but in this case you basically saying, well I could have won the lottery if I bought a ticket. 

It’s a very different situation now to then, we were in full trying to fast track and buy promotion mode - but reality is we know deep down it’s highly unlikely, nay most likely simply didn’t happen, that the pathway was blocked for some mythical young player the calibre of Scott or Conway, that we could/should have had more opportunities under LJ.

Cream rises to the top and no one can really name one player who has shot on since, despite being ‘held back’ by LJ. Morrell no. Vyner, not particularly.
 

We are simply producing more players now that we will sell upwards more often vs that period when we were producing one player capable of that every 2, 3 years. 
 

The transfer policy is another conversation we’ve all done to death!! But I just simply don’t buy the argument LJ particularly held back youngsters, because they weren’t there in the numbers they are now. Those who were good enough, he played - Kelly. And he gave plenty of debuts to likes of Semenyo and Moore.

And finally I’d say, for all the criticism of LJ and MA - the players we are producing now didn’t simply appear out of nowhere over last 1 or 2 years - the foundations were being put in place during that period. Scott for example signed under their ‘watch’. That’s not me saying they take credit or are responsible - but we are seeing the fruits of work they started/were involved in, if we like it or not.

@David Brent- yep I’d say that’s put to bed 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Alessandro

[Davefevs]

@Alessandroall very fair (probably all correct too!) responses.

I think my issues with Morrell and Moore (brought in, not academy) was that they got sent out on loan, replaced by loanees themselves, who then didn’t get played either.  Why not just keep them around?  My biggest gripe was Hinds.  I’d have let him carry on “riding the wave”, playing here and there (if only off the bench), training every day with Reid…and see what happened.

 

[robinforlife2]

Interesting topic.

Last Sunday, my friends 12yo played for Swindon under 12s, against Bristol City under 12s at the Academy pitches.

It was 11 a side in 4 bunches of 20 minutes.

It ended 4-4 with my friends son scoring twice for Swindon, who were 3-0 up within 10 minutes!

It was interesting as City didn't even seem to have a keeper, with outfield players playing in goal in the first and second half, and I must say the Under 12s look rather small, and Swindon's team were definitely bigger and stronger.

Swindon are very keen to keep my mates so on, under a youth contract next year as they think he will be a very good player, and he was the stand out for Swindon, but only 2 players of City's looked to have potential for me.

The number 3 looked like a young Semenyo in the making, but the number 11, was in a league of his own. Great vision, exceptional pace and he linked everything up, had some cross on him for a 12 year old and had he been a little more selfish probably would have scored. I don't know who either of them are, but I would imagine they have to be on the clubs radars to get youth contracts next year when 13, and the number 11, although he was not very tall, looks like he could be an outstanding wing back/ winger for the club.

What I wondered was, how does it work for those age groups? Are they contracted by the club, are people like Tinnion and so on already watching them ?

[And Its Smith]

1 hour ago, robinforlife2 said:

Interesting topic.

Last Sunday, my friends 12yo played for Swindon under 12s, against Bristol City under 12s at the Academy pitches.

It was 11 a side in 4 bunches of 20 minutes.

It ended 4-4 with my friends son scoring twice for Swindon, who were 3-0 up within 10 minutes!

It was interesting as City didn't even seem to have a keeper, with outfield players playing in goal in the first and second half, and I must say the Under 12s look rather small, and Swindon's team were definitely bigger and stronger.

Swindon are very keen to keep my mates so on, under a youth contract next year as they think he will be a very good player, and he was the stand out for Swindon, but only 2 players of City's looked to have potential for me.

The number 3 looked like a young Semenyo in the making, but the number 11, was in a league of his own. Great vision, exceptional pace and he linked everything up, had some cross on him for a 12 year old and had he been a little more selfish probably would have scored. I don't know who either of them are, but I would imagine they have to be on the clubs radars to get youth contracts next year when 13, and the number 11, although he was not very tall, looks like he could be an outstanding wing back/ winger for the club.

What I wondered was, how does it work for those age groups? Are they contracted by the club, are people like Tinnion and so on already watching them ?

We might not have an under 12s keeper yet but we definitely have a gem of an under 13s keeper. Best I’ve ever seen. I’m really intrigued to see how good he is in 4-5 years time. 

The academy at that age will give trials themselves for players they’ve spotted. They have spotters at a lot of games.  Also they quite regularly pick up the best kids from local academies like BIC.  A team called Rockleaze Rangers are an academy now in all but name. 
 

On the note of keepers, there is now a trend to turn outfield players into goalkeepers if they (a) are not quite good enough for outfield, (b) are tall, and (c) are good with their feet.  They will then get quite intense keeping training and go from there. O’Leary one of the first as he was a defender but that definitely bucked the trend at the time. Lot more going through that now across the game. 

[bcfc01]

35 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

On the note of keepers, there is now a trend to turn outfield players into goalkeepers if they (a) are not quite good enough for outfield, (b) are tall, and (c) are good with their feet.  They will then get quite intense keeping training and go from there. O’Leary one of the first as he was a defender but that definitely bucked the trend at the time. Lot more going through that now across the game. 

Going back a bit, but Ray Cashley was a defender before being coached into a keeper - not sure if he was the first one for City though.

[Lanterne Rouge]

On 07/11/2022 at 16:17, Davefevs said:

Worth a read!

It`s telling that Exeter chose to spend virtually all of the Ollie Watkins sell-on on the academy and training ground.

 

[Lanterne Rouge]

3 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

 

Didn`t insert my text for some reason but it is telling that Exeter chose to spend the Ollie Watkins sell-on on developing the traning ground and academy.