Mr Popodopolous Posted November 26, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2023 (edited) I honestly think, mentioning it as Everton v Man Utd on MOTD2 now. £105m plus allowables plus Covid Vs £286,975,550 Then a final loss of £124.5m (Remember 2 seasons averaged into 1, hence why not £372m or £304-305m). Surely if anything the first 2 years are somewhat generous, being able to strip out as much as £162,475,000 across Covid and regular FFP allowances. Edited November 26, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2023 (edited) Some of the reaction is pathetic. Northcroft, quickly catching up online on sport in yesterday Sunday Times says is a classic case of picking on the little guy and a 2-3 point deduction and warning would have sufficed. Skimread it only. Edited November 27, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 29, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2023 (edited) https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/11/29/premier-league-andy-burnham-everton-penalty-abuse-process/ Not read it myself but I don't see the abuse of process argument here personally. One more thing. Bear in mind that reports saying a straight 3 years were wrong. Some may say they lost: 1) £266m before tax before adjustments to 2020 2) £372m before tax, before adjustments to 2021 3) £304m before tax, before adjustments to 2022. They're all technically right but for FFP they are not because 2019-20 and 2020-21 were aggregated and averaged due to Covid. Therefore the pertinent for FFP pre tax, pre adjustment loss figures are roughly as follows. Period ending: 2019-20 No FFP/P&S Test. 2020-21 £255-256m 2021-22 £287m give or take. Edited November 29, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 29, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2023 This piece also goes back to what I said towards the start of the thread about the insularity of a lot of PL fans. Not one reference of the wider P&S rules and the fact that there have been multiple deductions in the Championship through rules that they in the PL found suitable for the top 2 divisions. https://www.toffeeweb.com/season/23-24/comment/fanscomment/44188.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 29, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2023 (edited) I will have a bit of a go.. Everton Loss Before Tax minus routine deductions in the public domain: 2018-19 £111,845,000 Minus: Depreciation- £6,537,000 Community Expenditure- £3,601,735 Women's Team- £1,164,537 Non Player Amortisation- £41,000 Stadium Expenditure below line- £7,236,000 There are Category One Academy Costs too but we don't know these. After known deductibles but before Academy it is a PSR calculation of.. -£93,264,728 Wonder how much their Academy expenditure is, £10-15m per year? Edited November 29, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 29, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2023 If anyone else wants a crack, here are the relevant accounts. Years 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022. https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00036624 https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/04851552 https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/07335143 Remember to combine years 2020 and 2021 averaging, interested though I am not gonna do all 4 any time soon! Let alone Covid claims vs suggested trying to unpack that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusX Posted November 29, 2023 Report Share Posted November 29, 2023 On 20/11/2023 at 23:46, Fammyfan said: The 10 point deduction I agree with but it’s unfortunate on the timing, making it very achievable for Everton to survive. Itll be interesting to see what happens with the other clubs and whether this results in Administration and a further points deduction. On this, I must say that I understand the stance of Burnley and Leicester but not Leeds, as they still would have been relegated irrespective of whether the points deduction was applied or not. Nah no sympathy for Leicester, they cheated their way out of the Championship 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 29, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2023 (edited) £30.7m of the Covid additional costs in 2019-20 appear to have been attributed to a) Impairment of Intangible assets ie Player Registrations and b) Provision for Onerous Contracts. For 2020-21, this figure is a) and b) £15,337,000 and £7,181,000 respectively. How much they wanted to attribute isn't altogether clear from their accounts which I reiterate are a mess for 2021 at least.the figures don't fully stack. Edited November 29, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 29, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, MarcusX said: Nah no sympathy for Leicester, they cheated their way out of the Championship They also went up in 2002-03 while in administration albeit pre restrictions, deductions etc. I wonder if their 3 years to this season are within allowable limits..or set to be. Leicester I mean. Edited November 29, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted November 29, 2023 Report Share Posted November 29, 2023 The PL have responded to Andy Burnham's claim of an abuse of process. They're right of course to point out that they were entitled to propose a sanction and their rationale for it but that the commission were entitled to reject it. This does not amount to changing the rules on the fly since the PL does not have fixed tariffs because the clubs, including Everton, didn't want them. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/nov/29/premier-league-denies-burnhams-claim-of-abuse-of-process-in-everton-case 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 29, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2023 Everton and their cheerleaders or apologists, really do think they're special dont they. Not singling them out, nobody likes the idea of deductions with their club and probably would be similar for a lot of PL fans and clubs. Aston Villa fans crowing about compliance given 2019 is especially nauseating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted November 29, 2023 Report Share Posted November 29, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/11/29/premier-league-andy-burnham-everton-penalty-abuse-process/ Not read it myself but I don't see the abuse of process argument here personally. One more thing. Bear in mind that reports saying a straight 3 years were wrong. Some may say they lost: 1) £266m before tax before adjustments to 2020 2) £372m before tax, before adjustments to 2021 3) £304m before tax, before adjustments to 2022. They're all technically right but for FFP they are not because 2019-20 and 2020-21 were aggregated and averaged due to Covid. Therefore the pertinent for FFP pre tax, pre adjustment loss figures are roughly as follows. Period ending: 2019-20 No FFP/P&S Test. 2020-21 £255-256m 2021-22 £287m give or take. I'm not sure why the mayor of Manchester is getting involved in this. OK I get he is a Everton season ticket holder but I'd say to write a letter in his capacity of Mayor of Manchester IS an abuse of power. Id not be happy if I was a resident of Manchester. Edited November 29, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 30, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said: I'm not sure why the mayor of Manchester is getting involved in this. OK I get he is a Everton season ticket holder but I'd say to write a letter in his capacity of Mayor of Manchester IS an abuse of power. Id not be happy if I was a resident of Manchester. Agreed. That's a good point, the Special Pleading is genuinely something. As you say what remit does he have there. If he wants to moan and no more that is one thing.. Small clip on BBC site, Osman seemed to think they did all they could. Or that the club believe it. Edited November 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 30, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2023 https://www.goodisonnews.com/2023/11/30/kieran-maguire-strong-chance-everton-points-deduction-appeal-goes-through-with-new-timeline/ According to Kieran Maguire, Everton might be set to use QPR case as a precedent in their appeal. How is that relevant. The rules have changed and did so years ago for one, the PL were offering no assistance to the EFL in terms of promoted clubs with alleged breaches, dunno if they are more cooperative now- they really should be given how the rules aligned in 2016-17. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2023 Everton have lodged their appeal, as expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2023 (edited) Sounds as if the aggrieved clubs might be looking to negotiate a settlement instead as they don't want to risk tipping Everton into administration. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12814917/Burnley-Leeds-Leicester-set-WITHDRAW-plan-sue-Everton.html People appear to be bending over backwards to help Everton. Edited December 1, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2023 (edited) Another apologist, special pleading, ex Everton moaner. https://www.everton.news/everton-fans-now-urged-to-carry-on-with-premier-league-protests-by-former-ceo/ He was on BBC Radio Merseyside, shame they didn't ask him about AVFC Stadium sale, HS2. Edited December 1, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted December 2, 2023 Report Share Posted December 2, 2023 FFS - Those cheating wanchors are going to stay up. Just like those self entitled bell-end Villa Cheating Wanchors did. But non cheating clubs like us have to suck it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2023 (edited) It's even worse with Aston Villa as they got out of this League through the stadium sale and leaseback plus an accident of Geography and then stayed up the next year with an bit of luck that was outrageous, don't remmeber Hawkeye failing before or since. Total fluke. Since then they have propelled upwards..had they failed FFP in 2019 or Hawkeye worked during 2020 they likely don't get £100m for Grealish and perhaps are set back badly. VAR also seems to fall in their favour fairly often but that could be linked to their vast improvement on the pitch ie the better you are, the more it falls your way. HWkeyee though, it literally failed the first gsme back after first lockdown, Project Restart. Sheffield United goal wrongly chalked off, invaluable point. So many counterfactuals but they survived by one point. Inferior GD. Edited December 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2023 More special pleading or? Also a post suggesting that the sanction should be suspended until the Appeal heard, funny I don't recall that with a host of clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 4, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2023 Another interesting line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2023 (edited) Interesting legal thread albeit you can detect the sense of moan. (Lawyer albeit an Everton supporting lawyer). Edited December 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2023 Burnham and guess on behalf of Everton still whining I see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 26, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2023 Everton 2022-23 accounts are due to the PL by end of the year, along with any other PL clubs who have made notable losses in the period. Kieran Maguire, Ornstein and others have suggested that this time they're fine..could well be but then again..they were quite bullish before. Presumably some of the optimism dissipated via Reporters comes from the club however I suspect they won't fail again with the Gordon sale key but time will tell. The 3 year test to this year, PSR calculations go in March for all clubs don't they for the existing season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 31, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2023 Had a quick browse of the Everton forum.. Still some moaning about he deduction, saying how it's unfair, incorrectly done- perhaps technically incorrect from a sanction guideline perspective. However what the idiots who moan may choose to airbrush is that it isn't just about punishment but vindication and deterrence. I think -10 is a bit light tbh and the timing relative to the year of the offence and charge date is very favourable, but it is a strong statement, deters some who think maybe a fine or soft embargo and vindicated a side like Wolves who offloaded strongly this summer and lost a manager like Lopetegui in the process. A slap on the wrist would severely weaken deterrence and vindication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 3 Author Report Share Posted January 3 Another day, another moaning Evertonian. Now he is moaning about the new PL FFP regs. The whole schedule if them for an alleged breach. Esk is usually quite analytical and I read his stuff with interest, but he has really thrown his toys out post deduction. Special pleading, hope they fail again. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 3 Author Report Share Posted January 3 The lawyer also appears to be a whinging Evertonian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted January 3 Report Share Posted January 3 59 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Another day, another moaning Evertonian. Now he is moaning about the new PL FFP regs. The whole schedule if them for an alleged breach. Esk is usually quite analytical and I read his stuff with interest, but he has really thrown his toys out post deduction. Special pleading, hope they fail again. What Everton fans, and indeed fans of other clubs, don't seem to get is that the Premier League is not some separate body it's an association of clubs with 20 members. The PL Executive cannot introduce any regulations without the clubs' approval. In fact the Executive proposed a sliding scale of sanctions but the clubs, including Everton, rejected it. If it had been passed my guess is that they would have had fewer points deducted. What they also don't get is that the Everton case was straightforward (once they belatedly admitted their breach) whereas the Man City case involves 115 more serious charges going back years so is very complex. The submissions in the Everton case reportedly had 30,000 pages. Imagine the amount of documentation in the City case then. Oh, and if they can't meet the timetable (which aims to deal with a breach before the end of the season) they either need better accounting processes, better staff or both. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 11 hours ago, chinapig said: (once they belatedly admitted their breach) This is a point that most sympathisers to Evertons deduction fail to realise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingHillRed Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 Did Bournemouth ever launch an appeal against their relegation in 19/20 after the Villa 'error' which would have meant they were relegated instead? Blinking despise Villa too With regards the FFP and Man City in particular, I wonder if there is enough external pressure from fans alike that means that if they are found guilty, they will have to apply a Everton style points deduction 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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