Everton FFP- yes

[1960maaan]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

"Everton believe PL appears to accept the current PSR rules are flawed as they’re changing them in August. Part of EFC defence is that current rules have not taken into account inflation, spiralling transfer fees etc.

So if inflation was at it's highest, say 10%, that would put allowances at £115m over the 3 years.
The case they admitted was over by miles , if my sums are anywhere near (up the page a bit) the £200m loss for the last 3 years is still over by some way. 

But they have fans that will be upset so there's that. 
 

[Kid in the Riot]

Good that the PL are finally clamping down, but the elephant in the room is Man City.

If found guilty, and it's hard to believe they aren't guilty of at least one of the 115 charges (those in the know suggest they are very much guilty on multiple counts), then they need to be absolutely clobbered by fines and penalties; particularly as they've denied the charges, threatened journalists that originally reported on the case, and are using the legal process to delay proceedings against them. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Good that the PL are finally clamping down, but the elephant in the room is Man City.

If found guilty, and it's hard to believe they aren't guilty of at least one of the 115 charges (those in the know suggest they are very much guilty on multiple counts), then they need to be absolutely clobbered by fines and penalties; particularly as they've denied the charges, threatened journalists that originally reported on the case, and are using the legal process to delay proceedings against them. 

According to an article by Mike Keegan the Hearing is October 2024.

Presumably any penalties and appeal, therefore final disposition would be settled in 2024-25 or by the end. 

A lot of this Man City saga especially could have been avoided with Proactive monitoring from the getgo, it's such a mess the main body of charges runs from 2009 to 2016 or 2018 and then obviously non-cooperation charges from then to perhaps present.

Dunno how quickly historic alleged infractions can be unpicked. Hopefully by Summer 2025 all will be settled for once and all.

Edited January 15 by Mr Popodopolous

[ExiledAjax]

Well well well look which industry just can't stop regulating itself.

Transparent desperate pricks.

[Open End Numb Legs]

I can't help but see an analogy here.

A footballer hacks down an opponent, the ref blows his whistle and the culprit looks horrified, throws his hands in the air and screams innocence at the ref.

Similarly, a club flouts the rules, gets caught, they throw their hands in the air and scream innocence through their lawyers.

Both a form of cheating.

[Loco Rojo]

14 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Good that the PL are finally clamping down, but the elephant in the room is Man City.

If found guilty, and it's hard to believe they aren't guilty of at least one of the 115 charges (those in the know suggest they are very much guilty on multiple counts), then they need to be absolutely clobbered by fines and penalties; particularly as they've denied the charges, threatened journalists that originally reported on the case, and are using the legal process to delay proceedings against them. 

Be interesting to see the PL punish one of their crown jewels. Bet there are a few squirming at the potential of having to do that.  Unfortunately i can see Man City getting away with it. Which will probably mean the 'smaller' cannon fodder clubs in the PL being punished on far less terms to make a point but not result in relegation. 

[Kid in the Riot]

14 minutes ago, Open End Numb Legs said:

I can't help but see an analogy here.

A footballer hacks down an opponent, the ref blows his whistle and the culprit looks horrified, throws his hands in the air and screams innocence at the ref.

Similarly, a club flouts the rules, gets caught, they throw their hands in the air and scream innocence through their lawyers.

Both a form of cheating.

It needs to be remembered that the clubs help make, and agree, to the rules as well. 

Particularly established EPL clubs like Man C and Everton are well aware of what the rules are, signed up to them, and still break them.

For me, that's even more deceitful than if the rules were set by an independent governing body. To be knowingly breaking rules which you helped create... 

[Open End Numb Legs]

2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

It needs to be remembered that the clubs help make, and agree, to the rules as well. 

Particularly established EPL clubs like Man C and Everton are well aware of what the rules are, signed up to them, and still break them.

For me, that's even more deceitful than if the rules were set by an independent governing body. To be knowingly breaking rules which you helped create... 

My analogy gets worse in these cases as I see a player bringing down an opponent as a crime of passion, a spur of the moment thing. Breaking FFP rules is something that happens in slow time, it is a consequence of meetings that look at costs and finances, considers the rules and then breaks them even though they know it is wrong. That is probably why I have very little sympathy.

[Mr Popodopolous]

32 minutes ago, Open End Numb Legs said:

My analogy gets worse in these cases as I see a player bringing down an opponent as a crime of passion, a spur of the moment thing. Breaking FFP rules is something that happens in slow time, it is a consequence of meetings that look at costs and finances, considers the rules and then breaks them even though they know it is wrong. That is probably why I have very little sympathy.

Broadly speaking agree although sometimes there is a bit of blind panic as a deadline approaches and teams either fall foul or scramble clear.

See Stoke, who I have a major issue with btw given their Covid arguments, it was reported on 27th May 2021 that they were wet to 'sell' the stadium, as it turned out the training ground too..Bet365 no less, funny old world eh. Their accounts claimed it was done on May 28th 2021 and the reason for blind panic was Reporting Period deadline 31st May 2021.

Now I wonder if this was actually done in line with their Accounting Period as the Land Registry showed an odd entry for the Bet365 Stadium..

Edited January 15 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I can accept that perhaps if there is a binding contract but given any transactions after 31st May wouldn't be accepted for FFP due to the rule change..should the change of Ownership have not been done by then.

Land Registry had major Covid related backlogs but all a bit strange.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Stoke City Holdings is/was the consolidator and Stoke City Property owned the ground and leased it to Stoke City FC.

Quite surprising then to see after the Reporting Deadline for the accounts, Stoke City Property still listed as owning...the Stoke City accounts and Bet365 accounts stated 28th May 2021.

[Loderingo]

Everton fans keep moaning about how badly they've been treated but as I see it they have been very lucky. If the FFP penalty had been applied last season, then they would have been definitely relegated instead of Leicester.

If you take the on-pitch points and pro-rata, you get:

Everton = 49 points

________________

Luton = 30 points

Burnley = 22 points

Sheff U = 17 points

so even with a 10 or even 12 point deduction Everton ought to stay up moderately comfortably.  The only thing that might cost Everton is if they firesale players in Jan.

There's also Forest who pro rata to 38 points.  They would be more at risk than Everton with a suggested 6-point penalty.

[Mr Popodopolous]

They would have dropped last year more than likely and 2021-22 as well.

Double reprieve really.

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 hours ago, maxjak said:

Sorry but i find that that a little simplistic and glib?   FFP is by no means a perfect model, and it needs to be refined and reviewed, as i do not believe it is achieving it's aims.  Everton are being hung out to dry, but theyr'e ; other clubs sailing very close to the wind.  I think FFP is failing in it's objectives and needs to be totally overhauled.       "Suck it up"?  Really??

Oh it's very much achieving its aims. The aims are to allow the big clubs to spend but the smaller clubs can't, even if they suddenly get taken over by Elon Musk. It keeps the big clubs big and the small clubs small. It protects the status quo. Uefa and the PL did not want another Man City or Chelsea. 

They are not being hung out to dry. They admitted the 1st breach and they have admitted the second breach. They will try and mitigate things to lower the punishment but ultimately they have now twice admitted breaching. 

Yes they need to suck up their breach and punishments and once theyve finished doing that, do aome more sucking it up. 

Clubs like Leicester were unfsirly relegate because Everton cheated and cheated. We'd be fuming if we were on the other end of their cheating. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

They would have dropped last year more than likely and 2021-22 as well.

Double reprieve really.

And not only dropped but almost certainly fell into administration. Potentially a double relegation. 

Whilst its a very loose connection even we can claim we've been cheated by Everton in a small way. Leicester would have stayed up ao therefore we wouldn't have lost to Leicester. We could have beat a severely weakened Everton instead. With a deduction in the Championship we could be one place higher. Maybe as a premier league club Leicester would have came in and offered 5 million more for Alex Scott. You get what I'm saying. There is obviously a more direct link of us and the other Championship clubs being cheated by Forest. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

Awhh the headlines today are that they may be forced to sell players such as Jarrad Branthwaite. Let's get the violins out for the poor darlings. 

Should have sold players before and they'd not find themselves in this self imposed mess. 

 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

And not only dropped but almost certainly fell into administration. Potentially a double relegation. 

Whilst its a very loose connection even we can claim we've been cheated by Everton in a small way. Leicester would have stayed up ao therefore we wouldn't have lost to Leicester. We could have beat a severely weakened Everton instead. With a deduction in the Championship we could be one place higher. Maybe as a premier league club Leicester would have came in and offered 5 million more for Alex Scott. You get what I'm saying. There is obviously a more direct link of us and the other Championship clubs being cheated by Forest. 

Everton probably would've failed the FFP rules at this level too, how quickly who knows but a real tailspin.

The firesale I dread to think.. some had relegation reduction clauses but if they failed seemingly on PL momey and the year Gordon sold, lop £60m or more off TV cash (PL - Parachutes and EFL) and £22m odd the Upper Loss limit..

Edited January 16 by Mr Popodopolous

[Natchfever]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Everton probably would've failed the FFP rules at this level too, how quickly who knows but a real tailspin.

The firesale I dread to think.. some had relegation reduction clauses but if they failed seemingly on PL momey and the year Gordon sold, lop £60m or more off TV cash (PL - Parachutes and EFL) and £22m odd the Upper Loss limit..

Irresponsible shower, hopefully they will face the sanctions they voted for.

Arrogant *****.

[W-S-M Seagull]

@Mr Popodopolous I heard Simon Jordan speaking about Evertons claims this morning and he totally rubbished it. 

He said something along the lines of when one year drops off then its another year gets added so a new cycle is created and they continued to spend in that year and therefore breached the rules in the new 3 ywar cycle too. He said there is nothing in the rules with any provisions for double punishments, rules Everton signed up for. 

I tend to agree with that. 

Edited January 16 by W-S-M Seagull

[Mr Popodopolous]

As I said a few months ago, vindication.

O'Neil has used this in respect of their summer 2023 transfer policy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68003939

[Curr Avon]

The Exploding Heads nail it (as usual)

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Hmm I fancy Chelsea are well over atm in the present period..if so they have at best until June 30th 2024 to sell as many players as needed etc.

Man City, the Hearing is as per one or two reports pencilled in for Autumn 2024...shame these things aren't public or streamed but I guess it is necessary.

Edited January 17 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

As for Everton, the first I can find on fan Protests goes back to January 2022. Some try to rewrite history a bit. Poorly run sure but..

https://archive.is/2022.01.23-163912/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/01/23/inside-evertons-civil-war-sparsely-attended-protests-rudderless/

Nothing I can see there about overspending or concerns of that nature.

This was when they were lower midtable to bottom 3rd under Benitez as he begun the process of necessary cost cutting..Gray and Townsend a combined £1.5m, offloading Rodriguez and obviously results can suffer.

They couldn't stick the financial discipline path more than one window. I know that subsequent sales existed but subsequent to the article in came Alli plus El Ghazi and Van De Beek on loan..Benitez had just been sacked which cost millions more.

Edited January 17 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Evertonians eh, I really hope they get hammered this time around. 

It is an interesting countefactual tbh but any club trying it deserves to get absolutely hammered.

 

I'd have thought that should yield a far bigger deduction.  Talking 15-20 points and recurring deductions for recurring breaches and probably stricter embargoes too.

Edited January 18 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

On a different note, I wonder if they have and not only them, got their books in order for the 2024 Test.

ie to the present season, Projections go in March 2024.

[Sir Geoff]

On 15/01/2024 at 21:24, Loderingo said:

Everton fans keep moaning about how badly they've been treated but as I see it they have been very lucky. If the FFP penalty had been applied last season, then they would have been definitely relegated instead of Leicester.

If you take the on-pitch points and pro-rata, you get:

Everton = 49 points

________________

Luton = 30 points

Burnley = 22 points

Sheff U = 17 points

so even with a 10 or even 12 point deduction Everton ought to stay up moderately comfortably.  The only thing that might cost Everton is if they firesale players in Jan.

There's also Forest who pro rata to 38 points.  They would be more at risk than Everton with a suggested 6-point penalty.

Not if the takeover by 777 doesn't go through. Then they could be looking at administration, due to the fact they owe 777 at least £50 million in unsecured loans (maybe more).

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-supporters-submit-case-against-28474925

[chinapig]

A good piece from Jonathan Liew that dismantles the arguments made by Everton fans in particular and points out that the PL (ie the clubs) should have dealt with reckless spending years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/jan/23/in-footballs-crisis-of-trust-the-premier-league-as-referee-is-hard-to-stomach

[Mr Popodopolous]

Good article, thanks for posting.

I quite like this new era of FFP oversight. 20 years overdue but it has potential to reward the prudent and stall or check the profligate.

Wasn't even a thing when Abramovich arrived, barely when Sheikh Mansour arrived, not properly implemented 5-10 years ago. Bournemouth, Leicester and Aston Villa all benefited from lax areas in the system. QPR did short term but got clobbered in the end.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Obviously there is an issue as to new entrants but they can build their way up over time to some degree. Newcastle with 52k at St James Park perhaps have a bit of a headstart on many but with lots of scope and need for growth still.. how their ries to Saudi Arabia play out remains to be seen.