Number Ones: Competition or Not

[handsofclay]

An interesting debate has been initiated by Arteta's signing of Raya from Brentford on a season long loan to compete with Ramsdale. Arteta states that there are no number ones at Arsenal, that there are two great goalkeepers, two great wingers, two great strikers etc so that every player knows that he has to give 100% or he will lose his place.

Peter Schmeichel argues that the goalkeeper position is a reactive one so a keeper can only react to what's thrown at him so cannot necessarily go out and try to impress as outfield players can do with an extra bit of eye catching inventive play and that keepers work on the confidence gained from knowing that they are the number one, whereas if they constantly believe their place in the team has shaky foundations then they are more prone to make mistakes.

It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on this as obviously it has a bearing on the situation at Ashton Gate where Max O'Leary is the firm number one and quite a few believe we should invest in another keeper of at least equal ability to compete.

Personally I can see both sides of the argument but would lean towards the keeper thinking he is safe in that position and not having to constantly impress. I would think the confidence gained from that knowledge would produce more consistent and secure performances. Obviously, if the keeper makes several howlers then they would lose their place regardless.

It will be interesting to see if Ramsdale's performances drop now he has very strong competition for his spot or he actually becomes better still.

[LondonBristolian]

I suspect a lot of it comes down to the individual goalkeeper. Some people respond best to feeling under pressure to prove themselves and perform worse if they're not pushed hard enough whilst some people respond best to feeling trusted and secure and might perform worse if they don't feel valued and trusted. I think what a manager has to do is know the players well enough to know what they need. It could simultaneously be true that competition is the right thing for Ramsdale and Arsenal but not the right thing for us and O'Leary. 

[Roe]

Particularly at our level, it's a massive waste of money to have "two number ones" in my view.

Competition for places being that important is a bit of a myth as well imo. Most of the best teams know who their best players are and who's likely to get in the team if everyone's fit

Players don't get better just because there's a copy of them sat on the bench

Squad depth itself is of course important, but having two outstanding players in each position is simply unworkable

Edited August 17, 2023 by Roe

[Fordy62]

I’m in the Arteta camp here. But interesting that you compare to our keeping situation because I don’t think our only number one is a strong as it could be, so I’m not so sure sure our number one needs competition so much as he needs improvement. 

For the record I’m well aware some will disagree. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Fordy62

[Red-Robbo]

Outfield players are under exactly the same pressure as keepers are to keep their place in the face of players waiting to claim it, and defenders are pretty much just as "reactive" as keepers - especially centre backs. Yeah, they go up for set pieces, but they have to sweep up what's chucked at them if more forward-sitting players haven't been doing their jobs.

Even if you subscribe to the keep a designated #1 as long as possible without change suggestion Schmeichel makes, you need someone half-decent to be able to come on if your first choice is injured, or ill, or suspended. 

[RedRoss]

I think I fall into the thinking it would be best to have a backed stable keeper as I agree with Peter that a keeper is a reactionary position. Rather than a keeper that is a bag of nerves with the pressure. However as others have said maybe its down to the person.

I think the ongoing Max debate for us is more around some fans think he isn't good enough and can be improved on or other fans are happy with Max as number one but not too happy with current back up options if injured. Others are happy with all options.

[handsofclay]

23 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I’m in the Arteta camp here. But interesting that you compare to our keeping situation because I don’t think our only number one is a strong as it could be, so I’m not so sure sure our number one needs competition so much as he needs improvement. 

For the record I’m well aware some will disagree. 

Some good points made by everyone thus far and I see your point, Fordy, as if I was an Arsenal fan I wouldn't think the keeper, Ramsdale, needs improvement. However, being a Bristol City fan I agree Max has room for improvement. In that way, you are correct, the situations aren't comparable.

I suppose another twist on this conundrum was supplied by England in the 1970s when the two outstanding keepers, Shilton and Clemence, took it in turns to wear the number one jersey. The main problem I would assume would arise from this solution is that it could unsettle the defenders around them.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, handsofclay said:

Some good points made by everyone thus far and I see your point, Fordy, as if I was an Arsenal fan I wouldn't think the keeper, Ramsdale, needs improvement. However, being a Bristol City fan I agree Max has room for improvement. In that way, you are correct, the situations aren't comparable.

I suppose another twist on this conundrum was supplied by England in the 1970s when the two outstanding keepers, Shilton and Clemence, took it in turns to wear the number one jersey. The main problem I would assume would arise from this solution is that it could unsettle the defenders around them.

Across many metrics Ramsdale is average.

Raya represents gains in shot stopping and handling of crosses.  Rayas distribution (long) is exceptional. Arsenal fell short last season. Marginally. There is a gain there. 

Ramsdale at 25 has a lot of time to improve across his averages. 

[Silvio Dante]

The thing that the “having to be eye catching” argument misses is that coaches - particularly at league level - watch a game typically differently to an average fan. If you like, it’s the difference between someone watching (say) Anis and seeing some great skill and thinking he played well Vs someone watching him not take up the correct position for 60 minutes and the knock on impact on the team.

(I’m not saying Anis does this btw, just detailing how a flair player can be seen as having a good game when, if you watch in a different way, they don’t)

To give another example, I’ve often said when Elliasson is brought up that the reason he made so many tackles was because he was positioned wrong. If you see the tackle stats only you think he played well - but managers consistently didn’t pick him.

At the GK end of the scale, in the team I coach our GK got MOM in a game last year - despite making no saves. Precisely because he wasn’t doing the “eye catching” stuff but his control of his defence and the box was immense.

Inherently I have no issue with a number one and a “good” number two (as opposed to two top class keepers), but that’s more because I see two top class keepers for the level as a waste of a wage, and I’d also question desire - players want to play.

Incidentally the reason I don’t think Max is good enough at this level as a number one is not because of the eye catching stuff - he’s a very good shot stopper - but because the other aspects of his game, the unglamorous stuff like control of game, box and distribution are below par.

So, I’m probably with Schmeichel - but not for the reason stated