Why does the club never sort the midfield!

[Shauntaylor85]

In over 30 years as a season ticket holder I bemoan the same issue year after year. We are so weak in ineffective in midfield. We have always had decent keepers (aside from current), quality left backs and strikers who have gone for millions, but midfield? We may as well not play with one, I was always desperate to sign Graham Kavanagh, Robert Koren, players who create and score goals, yet same issue now! We’ve got the Skuse, Burnell, LJ, Kilkenny type players, ineffective! Create absolute zero! When was last time our midfield put forward an exquisite through ball for one of our players to run through on goal? Even Scott struggled for goals and assists, but aside from him, Tinnion and Brownhill (and yes I didn’t rate Hartley, couldn’t get that one), I can’t think of any midfielder in the past 30 years who has really dominated and put us on front foot. 
 

It needs sorting now. Come on Tinman, you know it’s a weak spot for us. 

[Bris Red]

Someone else posted it yesterday but we should have gone absolutely all out to try and get Daniel Johnson in, exactly the type of dynamic midfield we are crying out for. Tried and tested at this level aswell.

It does again go back to the budget Pearson is having to work with, no doubt Stoke can offer wages we aren’t prepared to offer anymore so we are looking to top end League 1 players to save £. I’d be shocked if Pearson didn’t enquire about Johnson but could have been a number of reason why we couldn’t get him. As i say I’d imagine wages being the number 1 reason.

Knight looks decent but was another defensively minded midfielder what we needed? We seem to have too many of the same type of midfielder for me. 
 

I hate to single out players but this is a big season for Williams, he is either injured or largely ineffective when he does play. Not really sure what he offers to be honest.
 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Bris Red

[And Its Smith]

8 minutes ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

In over 30 years as a season ticket holder I bemoan the same issue year after year. We are so weak in ineffective in midfield. We have always had decent keepers (aside from current), quality left backs and strikers who have gone for millions, but midfield? We may as well not play with one, I was always desperate to sign Graham Kavanagh, Robert Koren, players who create and score goals, yet same issue now! We’ve got the Skuse, Burnell, LJ, Kilkenny type players, ineffective! Create absolute zero! When was last time our midfield put forward an exquisite through ball for one of our players to run through on goal? Even Scott struggled for goals and assists, but aside from him, Tinnion and Brownhill (and yes I didn’t rate Hartley, couldn’t get that one), I can’t think of any midfielder in the past 30 years who has really dominated and put us on front foot. 
 

It needs sorting now. Come on Tinman, you know it’s a weak spot for us. 

Firstly Max is decent.  You forgot Korey Smith and Marlon Pack.  

[Andy082005]

9 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Firstly Max is decent.  You forgot Korey Smith and Marlon Pack.  

How can we all forget Wade Elliott ?

[italian dave]

57 minutes ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

In over 30 years as a season ticket holder I bemoan the same issue year after year. We are so weak in ineffective in midfield. We have always had decent keepers (aside from current), quality left backs and strikers who have gone for millions, but midfield? We may as well not play with one, I was always desperate to sign Graham Kavanagh, Robert Koren, players who create and score goals, yet same issue now! We’ve got the Skuse, Burnell, LJ, Kilkenny type players, ineffective! Create absolute zero! When was last time our midfield put forward an exquisite through ball for one of our players to run through on goal? Even Scott struggled for goals and assists, but aside from him, Tinnion and Brownhill (and yes I didn’t rate Hartley, couldn’t get that one), I can’t think of any midfielder in the past 30 years who has really dominated and put us on front foot. 
 

It needs sorting now. Come on Tinman, you know it’s a weak spot for us. 

Partly it’s about balance. The Skuse, Burrnell, LJ, Kilkenny type players aren’t ineffective. They are very effective at what they do (tho I’d probably exclude Kilkenny from that description!) and what they do is an essential part of any midfield. And the creative, forward looking, goal scoring type is the other essential part.You need both, but I agree we rarely manage that! 

It’s also about the style of football. Certainly at the moment, and for the past 3 years, we play a style of football that relies on getting the ball out wide as much and as quickly as possible, largely bypassing a more creative midfielder, and certainly not playing to the strengths of someone who will slide those exquisite through balls you’re looking for.

Arguably we had one in Kasey Palmer, but we never ever played to those strengths and he was left looking lost while the game passed him by. He looked a very different player at Coventry last season when they played through the middle and made him central to their style.

And, as @Bris Red has already alluded to, the style of midfielder that we seem obsessed with now is the defensive one, and we look very unbalanced as a result. When we have the ball we just seem to have a massive gap between midfield and the front (very widely spread) three, nothing to ‘play through’, and reliant on long balls. And that seems deliberate. 

So broadly I’d agree with you, although I think there’s more to it. Also, somewhat depressingly, the thought occurred to me that at the moment our front three doesn’t look that great either, and an injury and a suspension means we’re already talking about makeshift defenders! 

Edited August 20, 2023 by italian dave

[Silvio Dante]

38 minutes ago, Andy082005 said:

How can we all forget Wade Elliott ?

 

[Roe]

I mean we just sold a midfielder for our highest ever transfer received. But ok

[Davefevs]

@Bris Red Daniel Johnson was never going anywhere other than Stoke with Alex Neil.

[Redstart]

2 hours ago, Andy082005 said:

How can we all forget Wade Elliott ?

And Marvin

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

Partly it’s about balance. The Skuse, Burrnell, LJ, Kilkenny type players aren’t ineffective. They are very effective at what they do (tho I’d probably exclude Kilkenny from that description!) and what they do is an essential part of any midfield. And the creative, forward looking, goal scoring type is the other essential part.You need both, but I agree we rarely manage that! 

It’s also about the style of football. Certainly at the moment, and for the past 3 years, we play a style of football that relies on getting the ball out wide as much and as quickly as possible, largely bypassing a more creative midfielder, and certainly not playing to the strengths of someone who will slide those exquisite through balls you’re looking for.

Arguably we had one in Kasey Palmer, but we never ever played to those strengths and he was left looking lost while the game passed him by. He looked a very different player at Coventry last season when they played through the middle and made him central to their style.

And, as @Bris Red has already alluded to, the style of midfielder that we seem obsessed with now is the defensive one, and we look very unbalanced as a result. When we have the ball we just seem to have a massive gap between midfield and the front (very widely spread) three, nothing to ‘play through’, and reliant on long balls. And that seems deliberate. 

So broadly I’d agree with you, although I think there’s more to it. Also, somewhat depressingly, the thought occurred to me that at the moment our front three doesn’t look that great either, and an injury and a suspension means we’re already talking about makeshift defenders! 

This is a fair point. One of those midfielder types is fine, too many not so much.

One defensive, one creator, one attacking or one continuity , one creator and one attacking.

[GrahamC]

42 minutes ago, Redstart said:

And Marvin

If we really are taking that 30 year comment seriously then that era includes;

Marvin Elliott, Josh Brownhill, Paul Hartley, Korey Smith, Marlon Pack, Matty James, David Noble, Lee Johnson (I know, I know), Wade Elliott, Cole Skuse, Brian Tinnion, Gary Owers & Tommy Doc.

Jason Knight, very early days but he looks a smart pick up.

I’d argue all of these were decent, of course we have had some poor ones as well but this is pretty lazy stuff on the back of a crap performance yesterday.

Daniel Johnson is on the way down, not someone who would make that much difference IMO, his stats at Preston show he’s been a squad player for a while now.

Edited August 20, 2023 by GrahamC

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, Redstart said:

And Marvin

 

Marv played in the spot exactly where I think we need a MF now. Right bang in the centre, rather than 5mm in front of the back line.

Broke-up play, he was a big chap and few things got by him, but also helped out with goals.

[Gimme Shelton]

55 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

If we really are taking that 30 year comment seriously then that era includes;

Marvin Elliott, Josh Brownhill, Paul Hartley, Korey Smith, Marlon Pack, Matty James, David Noble, Lee Johnson (I know, I know), Wade Elliott, Cole Skuse, Brian Tinnion, Gary Owers & Tommy Doc.

Jason Knight, very early days but he looks a smart pick up.

I’d argue all of these were decent, of course we have had some poor ones as well but this is pretty lazy stuff on the back of a crap performance yesterday.

Daniel Johnson is on the way down, not someone who would make that much difference IMO, his stats at Preston show he’s been a squad player for a while now.

Agree about Johnson but at the moment Knight doesn't look like a championship midfielder to me,at least not in the position he's being played 

[Dr Balls]

1 hour ago, Gimme Shelton said:

Agree about Johnson but at the moment Knight doesn't look like a championship midfielder to me,at least not in the position he's being played 

That’s probably because Knight’s not yet up to speed with this level. Remember he has only played 3 games against Championship teams, as the pre-season and Carabao Cup were against lower level teams, when he has looked far more comfortable. Can he improve? I would certainly hope so. Is he the attacking midfielder we need? That seems a lot less likely from what I understand of how he has played previously, but he did get 2 goals against Oxford, which is a lot more than many of our midfielders have managed for a long time.

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

That’s probably because Knight’s not yet up to speed with this level. Remember he has only played 3 games against Championship teams, as the pre-season and Carabao Cup were against lower level teams, when he has looked far more comfortable. Can he improve? I would certainly hope so. Is he the attacking midfielder we need? That seems a lot less likely from what I understand of how he has played previously, but he did get 2 goals against Oxford, which is a lot more than many of our midfielders have managed for a long time.

He got 6 goals in his first full season with Derby at this level.

Stats aren't the be all and end all but he can contribute some goals IMO, so can Sykes although he's more of a wife forward isn't he.

[Lack of Action Man]

We either need the midfield sentinel in the mould of Marvin Elliott or we need the creative distributor in the mould of Paul Hartley (though hopefully not quite as old). I highly doubt we will get both, but we should be going hell for leather now in the transfer market to acquire ONE of these types of midfield player.

[Red-Robbo]

33 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

That’s probably because Knight’s not yet up to speed with this level. Remember he has only played 3 games against Championship teams, as the pre-season and Carabao Cup were against lower level teams, when he has looked far more comfortable. Can he improve? I would certainly hope so. Is he the attacking midfielder we need? That seems a lot less likely from what I understand of how he has played previously, but he did get 2 goals against Oxford, which is a lot more than many of our midfielders have managed for a long time.

Knight hasn't convinced me yet and goals v a League One defence don't either. He played 81 times at this level for Derby and got 5 goals in those seasons. That doesn't make him the attacking - support the forwards - midfielder we need.

He played some short passes that found our front men yesterday and ran about a lot, but Alex Scott he ain't!

I'm not writing him off after 2 home games, but what I've seen doesn't suggest to me that he's the answer to our midfield woes, which, as the OP states, have been a long-running issue. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

According to Sofascore, Knight at the level. ie not including Cup games.

2019-20 P31 (20 Starts, 11 sub appearances)- 6 goals

2020-21 P43 (41 Starts, 2 sub appearances)- 2 goals

2021-22 P38 (31 Starts, 7 sub appearances)- 2 goals, 3 assists.

Derby were in chaos for the best part of 2 years however whixh helps nobody on the Football side. Charged in January 2022 and it dragged and dragged.

I'd say a goal scoring midfielder should be aiming at 5-10.

[Gimme Shelton]

I thought Bielek Birmingham's no6 was excellent yesterday,an absolute unit who made everything look simple. Something like Khalifa Cisse (couldn't we do with someone like him now)

[Mr Popodopolous]

Always liked Bielik, injuries my main red flag with him. He's not bad technically either.

[downendcity]

3 hours ago, Redstart said:

And Marvin

Hartley?

[Davefevs]

49 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Knight hasn't convinced me yet and goals v a League One defence don't either. He played 81 times at this level for Derby and got 5 goals in those seasons. That doesn't make him the attacking - support the forwards - midfielder we need.

He played some short passes that found our front men yesterday and ran about a lot, but Alex Scott he ain't!

I'm not writing him off after 2 home games, but what I've seen doesn't suggest to me that he's the answer to our midfield woes, which, as the OP states, have been a long-running issue. 

That’s not really his role, he’s more box-to-box, more a conventional midfielder (from the olden days), with bags of energy to get up and down.  A bit like Brownhill, who wasn’t a no10 (LJ started him there at the expense of Tomlin!), more an 8, who was more about give and goes than a dribbling 8 like Scott per se.

I do think a some of our attacking woes come from the way we are playing the three across the front.  I’ve never been comfy with three playing as they are.  Last week v Millwall, more from defensive need, Sykes and Bell played 5-10 yards infield without the ball, but it meant in loose-ball situations they were in-touch with Wells, but also our midfield.  I’d rather we played a pair…and they worked together.

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s not really his role, he’s more box-to-box, more a conventional midfielder (from the olden days), with bags of energy to get up and down.  A bit like Brownhill, who wasn’t a no10 (LJ started him there at the expense of Tomlin!), more an 8, who was more about give and goes than a dribbling 8 like Scott per se.

 

He didn't really display one iota of the attacking flair of Brownhill, nor would I say did he make much of a contribution to the defence. 

I haven't seen this impressive Knight who others have at pre-season (against lower league opposition) and I couldn't go to Oxford where he scored twice (against lower league opposition).

Yesterday, he offered neither attacking threat nor defensive cover. Let's hope we find a way to use him better, but he isn't the link-man to the forward line I'd hoped for. 

Whoever we play up there needs to get decent deliveries and as others have said that needs either an out-and-out attacking midfielder who can carry the ball forwards or a midfield distributor a la Tinnion. 

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

He didn't really display one iota of the attacking flair of Brownhill, nor would I say did he make much of a contribution to the defence. 

I haven't seen this impressive Knight who others have at pre-season (against lower league opposition) and I couldn't go to Oxford where he scored twice (against lower league opposition).

Yesterday, he offered neither attacking threat nor defensive cover. Let's hope we find a way to use him better, but he isn't the link-man to the forward line I'd hoped for. 

Whoever we play up there needs to get decent deliveries and as others have said that needs either an out-and-out attacking midfielder who can carry the ball forwards or a midfield distributor a la Tinnion. 

I don’t think that was why he was signed though.  The Scott and Weimann injuries have likely had an effect on where he is being asked to play at the moment.  I do think Nige has got this bit of the midfield construct wrong.