Equal pay for women

[IAmNick]

25 minutes ago, BCFCAL said:

The disparity is quite bad IMO, the Dallas FC u15s don't get paid anything, whereas the women (current WC Champs at the time) were getting £400,000+!

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

I actually watched the final, the only game I watched, and it wasn't bad, apart from certain parts which were amateurish. It's getting better, but you can't compare it to the top 1% of men's football. I haven't seen any league 2 players request £400,000 p/a (asking for the same as the women), it's silly. I also think the game could be a lot better if changes were implemented, like a slightly smaller pitch and goals - to make it more technical but less physical, but it won't happen because they care more about their ego as opposed to entertainment.

Right but men having significant advantages in sport isn't exactly a surprise to anyone, it's biology rather than anything those boys/men did particularly. Are you similarly unimpressed with the Williams sisters? Jessica Ennis-Hill wins gold at London 2012 "yeah but a bloke would have been faster"

I don't think that diminishes the fact that the women there were the best in the world - the absolute best they could have possibly been even they were born.

If you're the best in the world in your discipline, why would you get paid the same as League 2 players in a different discipline?

I'm impressed with your knowledge of world class women's footballers egos though, and their lack of interest for entertainment!

Edited August 21, 2023 by IAmNick

[BCFCAL]

20 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Right but men having significant advantages in sport isn't exactly a surprise to anyone, it's biology rather than anything those boys/men did particularly. Are you similarly unimpressed with the Williams sisters? Jessica Ennis-Hill wins gold at London 2012 "yeah but a bloke would have been faster"

I don't think that diminishes the fact that the women there were the best in the world - the absolute best they could have possibly been even they were born.

If you're the best in the world in your discipline, why would you get paid the same as League 2 players in a different discipline?

I'm impressed with your knowledge of world class women's footballers egos though, and their lack of interest for entertainment!

Hence why I said that it wasn't bad and that my suggested changes in which I'd see it as better to watch - much like Women's Tennis being best of 3 instead of 5, and Heptathlons are different distances for Men and Women, to make it better entertainment wise, due to the biological difference.

So you're saying that male and female football are different disciplines? I agree. So why is there an argument? I haven't seen anything from Javelin throwers to be paid male premier league football wages.

[IAmNick]

38 minutes ago, BCFCAL said:

Hence why I said that it wasn't bad and that my suggested changes in which I'd see it as better to watch - much like Women's Tennis being best of 3 instead of 5, and Heptathlons are different distances for Men and Women, to make it better entertainment wise, due to the biological difference.

So you're saying that male and female football are different disciplines? I agree. So why is there an argument? I haven't seen anything from Javelin throwers to be paid male premier league football wages.

I guess the issue there is that those tennis players and heptathletes can still train using the same facilities and equipment. If we changed around the women's stuff like that they'd need different facilities and that's likely to stunt the game as we're not going to retrofit every sports centre / park / training ground etc. with smaller goals.

I guess my thinking is roughly:

* pay in sport, especially ones which historically have been under invested in/represented shouldn't be solely determined by their commercial revenue - I think there's a bit of a logical fallacy there.

* men get paid too much in football currently, and women too little. Should they be equal? Maybe in an ideal world, but that won't happen in reality so probably not, no! But we should try and address the imbalance as I think everyone wins in that scenario

* we shouldn't try and do a 1:1 comparison across sports or competitions like that and make everything perfectly equal. I don't think that's a realistic or even necessarily a good thing

[BCFCAL]

39 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I guess the issue there is that those tennis players and heptathletes can still train using the same facilities and equipment. If we changed around the women's stuff like that they'd need different facilities and that's likely to stunt the game as we're not going to retrofit every sports centre / park / training ground etc. with smaller goals.

I guess my thinking is roughly:

* pay in sport, especially ones which historically have been under invested in/represented shouldn't be solely determined by their commercial revenue - I think there's a bit of a logical fallacy there.

* men get paid too much in football currently, and women too little. Should they be equal? Maybe in an ideal world, but that won't happen in reality so probably not, no! But we should try and address the imbalance as I think everyone wins in that scenario

* we shouldn't try and do a 1:1 comparison across sports or competitions like that and make everything perfectly equal. I don't think that's a realistic or even necessarily a good thing

I agree massively, men get paid far too much, and unfortunately I don't actually know the figures that the women are getting paid, it was a quick search for me of how much the USWNT were getting so they're the figures I had, and £400,000 p/y is crazy that there's constant moaning about it, for myself. But yes, comparing different sports, in different countries, that bring in varied amounts of viewers is ludicrous, like you've said. But, it is always going to be determined heavily on the commercial revenue as that's where they get their pot of money from.

[Steve Watts]

19 hours ago, frenchred said:

I don't believe the men take theirs but donate it to charity 

I'm not sure of the relevance of this comment (I appreciate you weren't the only one to make it) - the men can afford to donate theirs to charity so I'm not sure what they do with their earnings has to do with what the women are paid.

10 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I used to watch it long before we were made to feel like we have to watch it. 

I remember many moons ago going to an England game at the memorial ground. 

Watched many world cups before but now I've not watched a single game because I don't like feeling as if I have to watch something. 

So you decided you wouldn't let someone else influence what you watched....by allowing someone else to influence what you didn't watch?!?  Riggggghhhhhht....!

20 hours ago, frenchred said:

When women's football attracts the cash the men's does then they can campaign for equal pay.

It's a minority sport that cannot be compared to the men's game, it differs so much in terms of physicality, speed, awareness, skill and technical ability it's almost a different game!

When will the politically correct among us get real?

I do have a wry smile when people bandy around the term "politically correct" like it's a bad thing.  There's a difference between political correctness and political correctness gone mad.  The latter is when something is pushed with no regard to mitigating factors.  The former is just the right thing to do. 

This discussion, if carried out on the basis of "women shouldn't be paid less than men, so there", as it seems to be in some quarters, is indeed political correctness gone mad.  The simple mitigating fact here is economics.  To pay women in the WSL the equivalent of men in the EPL would cripple the sport and bring it to a grinding halt just as it's gaining momentum.  As someone else has said, in 30 years time you would expect the gap to narrow somewhat.  But it needs to be allowed to grow organically.  

 

[Riaz]

On 20/08/2023 at 09:18, bs3 said:

Isn’t about time the women footballers deserve equal pay with the men .

How in 2023 this situation is allowed to continue, surely the government must put through legislation that women and men are paid the same .

I see I’m not alone in this call there are many MPs and high (and low) profile celebrities demanding action on this issue.

Has there been a worst post on otib?

Edited August 21, 2023 by Riaz

[Numero Uno]

On 20/08/2023 at 09:18, bs3 said:

Isn’t about time the women footballers deserve equal pay with the men .

How in 2023 this situation is allowed to continue, surely the government must put through legislation that women and men are paid the same .

I see I’m not alone in this call there are many MPs and high (and low) profile celebrities demanding action on this issue.

When the Womens game generates the revenues of the Mens game there will be plenty of Agents ensuring your Utopia comes to pass. Until then……..

Put it this way, if Nige came out and said “no funds available as Steve has transferred £15m of the Scott money to the WFC to ensure pay for the women’s players is the same as the men” let’s see what the reaction is then!!

The womens game has been established and they have to stand on their own feet. If you feel that strongly about it persuade 15,000 others to watch the BCFC WPL matches, persuade the tv companies to invest in it then watch the wages grow.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

7 hours ago, IAmNick said:

Right but men having significant advantages in sport isn't exactly a surprise to anyone, it's biology rather than anything those boys/men did particularly. Are you similarly unimpressed with the Williams sisters? Jessica Ennis-Hill wins gold at London 2012 "yeah but a bloke would have been faster"

I don't think that diminishes the fact that the women there were the best in the world - the absolute best they could have possibly been even they were born.

If you're the best in the world in your discipline, why would you get paid the same as League 2 players in a different discipline?

I'm impressed with your knowledge of world class women's footballers egos though, and their lack of interest for entertainment!

I keep saying this as do others, if the women's and men's world cups happened together then there would be a case for equal pay in terms of absolute pay.  As it is the women get 20% of total tournament revenue and the men 7% if we paid the women as much as the men it would outstrip the money the tournament makes.  It's a faux comparison as the world athletic championship happens at the same time under the same umbrella, as does tennis so unless you were really petty and wanted to break it down by viewing figures per game then it's easier to just have equal pay under the same umbrella.

I really like women's football, but I am starting to get switched off with all the gender politics around it through.  I critised the team selection for the Haiti game and was told to leave the women's game alone and don't be so sexist, sorry but that's part of being invested.  

Edited August 21, 2023 by Lorenzos Only Goal

[Littlesh*t]

Not read the thread but no way should it be equal pay until the women's game generates the same money mens football does. 

It has come on loads in recent years but attendance are still Miles behind the men's game 

[SinéadB]

Honestly no one really thinks there should be equal pay, but if you invest in the womens game, you can see how much it grows. 

People going on about how much the mens game makes is in some way valid, but City lose £10m a year? The women don't. How come people think women should break even but the men don't need to? Basically no clubs break even (which is obviously because football is run ridiculously).

But there does need to be better access to pitches, healthcare, research etc.

Lots of the womens team salary in the in Championship were the same as just one week of our higher earners in the mens team.

[IAmNick]

1 hour ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

I keep saying this as do others, if the women's and men's world cups happened together then there would be a case for equal pay in terms of absolute pay.  As it is the women get 20% of total tournament revenue and the men 7% if we paid the women as much as the men it would outstrip the money the tournament makes.  It's a faux comparison as the world athletic championship happens at the same time under the same umbrella, as does tennis so unless you were really petty and wanted to break it down by viewing figures per game then it's easier to just have equal pay under the same umbrella.

I really like women's football, but I am starting to get switched off with all the gender politics around it through.  I critised the team selection for the Haiti game and was told to leave the women's game alone and don't be so sexist, sorry but that's part of being invested.  

Yeah I'm not saying they should be paid the same, but I think we should try and reduce the disparity - including subsidising it for a time if necessary. We do that with lots of things, including around sport. I don't like the idea of something (or someone's) worth purely being decided on their commercial contribution! If we just base it on what's  commercially popular that's mostly just going to maintain the status quo imo.

That's a shame about the comment. A lot of the discourse online around these things wears me out sometimes as well. It's naturally political to some degree though, just got to not let other people ruin your enjoyment - neither of us would be posting here otherwise!!

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, IAmNick said:

Yeah I'm not saying they should be paid the same, but I think we should try and reduce the disparity - including subsidising it for a time if necessary. We do that with lots of things, including around sport. I don't like the idea of something (or someone's) worth purely being decided on their commercial contribution! If we just base it on what's  commercially popular that's mostly just going to maintain the status quo imo.

That's a shame about the comment. A lot of the discourse online around these things wears me out sometimes as well. It's naturally political to some degree though, just got to not let other people ruin your enjoyment - neither of us would be posting here otherwise!!

Plenty of people on here run businesses and guess what their pay is based upon? Should we be subsidised by someone so that we can earn the same as the people running the most popular businesses in our industry?

Theres nothing to stop a rich owner investing in a WFC and paying big wages………..

[IAmNick]

20 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Plenty of people on here run businesses and guess what their pay is based upon? Should we be subsidised by someone so that we can earn the same as the people running the most popular businesses in our industry?

Theres nothing to stop a rich owner investing in a WFC and paying big wages………..

Well plenty of things in this country don't make money directly and we pay for them - nurses, bin men, youth sports/coaching/clubs... this forum. Should we stop subsidising them? We assign them value beyond what they contribute commercially. I'm obviously not saying a female footballer is the same as a nurse btw, it's just an example.

If we think subsiding women's football is an important step towards it becoming more self sufficient, or that it contributes enough to our society, then why not?

Additionally, many business are subsidised aren't they. Help for training schemes, using certain equipment, grants to build things, use green energy, whatever.

We subsidise things we think are important to try and grow them so they no longer need it.

The problem is that rich people usually invest to make even more money, not necessarily do social good or promote equality!

Edited August 21, 2023 by IAmNick

[Ziderarmy]

On 20/08/2023 at 15:48, frenchred said:

When women's football attracts the cash the men's does then they can campaign for equal pay.

It's a minority sport that cannot be compared to the men's game, it differs so much in terms of physicality, speed, awareness, skill and technical ability it's almost a different game!

When will the politically correct among us get real?

Goalkeeping’s decent to be fair…