Wage budget

[Lew-T]

Sick to death of being promised Pasture but being given Rustlers.

[Hello Dave]

3 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I just don't get our club or it's finances at the moment.

Correct me if I'm wrong but: -

- We've just received £25m for one player who cost us nothing, in addition to £10m in January for another player who cost us nothing

- As demonstrated above, we have substantially reduced the wage bill over the last few years

- We have obvious weaknesses in the team that need addressing, and a squad that is currently very unlikely to challenge for the top six.

 

....so if we can't or won't spend money in these circumstances in order to give ourselves a proper chance of progression and promotion - when can we?

And if we needed that money just to cover losses - what the hell would we have done without that massive cash injection that wasn't guaranteed? And why aren't we are competitive as other Championship sides who haven't had the benefit of £35m in transfer receipts in the last 8 months?

What's going on? Can anyone explain it?

You say the wage bill has been slashed, but it’s still more than our incomings. Let’s say we have 15000 season ticket holders at an average of £500. That’s only £7.5m. Where does the shortfall come from? Those figures are only wages, what about the upkeep of the stadium etc?

It’s no secret that we have been losing about £20 m per season, sometimes more. These transfer fees are just plugging a gap. As much as I want us to sign a striker, creative midfielder and a keeper, we’ve got to be realistic. It’s simple housekeeping.

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Correct.  Think we just had a load of crap player being paid too much!

So was I.

I’ve gone from - surely Nige was bluffing about maxing out the wage budget

To - SL is setting Nige up to fail and it’s gonna be a long season

I think we will know much more by the next international break (not this one).  Hoping we will know more about:

Conway

McCrorie

Atkinson

Weimann

and even Benarous

If we have line of sight on their return (even if it’s bad news) we can ready our expectations.

I suppose it's only setting Nige up to fail if the objective is to be in or around the top 6 (let's say 8th or higher).

If behind the scenes both parties are agreed that we are just at the austerity stage of a long term plan to strip everything back to then build again, then that's fine. In that example it's really a case of having to manage fans expectations before things get toxic.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Hello Dave said:

You say the wage bill has been slashed, but it’s still more than our incomings. Let’s say we have 15000 season ticket holders at an average of £500. That’s only £7.5m. Where does the shortfall come from? Those figures are only wages, what about the upkeep of the stadium etc?

It’s no secret that we have been losing about £20 m per season, sometimes more. These transfer fees are just plugging a gap. As much as I want us to sign a striker, creative midfielder and a keeper, we’ve got to be realistic. It’s simple housekeeping.

Our revenue is more than season ticket sales.  It’s no longer more than our incomings.  There are two other cost buckets - amortisation (down from £12m peak to circa £2m this season) and the wonderfully named “other costs” which is everything else.

[Simon bristol]

1 hour ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

We need to go Johnny Foreigner, yes! At last, someone catches on (to what I have been pointing out, occasionally, on here, for many a year now). Steve needs to widen his search for his next head coach, people all over the planet manage and coach football  (who knew) and many of them (who knew) are better at it than our brave English Nigels and Lees/blokes (bless 'em). There's even studies and stats to back this up (feast yer eyes, Davefevs and that Ajax lad). Fact is, English blokes aren't that good and you don't need to "know the league." 

Look how international the Championship is now, then cast and eye over Bristol City: It’s like Brexit's last stand. Even Burnley have gone abroad.

Cant agree,, every transfer is a risk, especially given our record, but signings from abroad just increase the risk because we dont know how they settle… kodjia was a star, fam was decent, and so was elliasson, but weve made a number of non uk signings over the last few years and a lot of them have been hopeless, with at least one established international who wanted to leave cause he was home sick.

[Hello Dave]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Our revenue is more than season ticket sales.  It’s no longer more than our incomings.  There are two other cost buckets - amortisation (down from £12m peak to circa £2m this season) and the wonderfully named “other costs” which is everything else.

Obviously season ticket sales aren’t the only income, but does it cover the wage bill? If so, what do you think the expected loss will be this year?

[The Gasbuster]

5 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

Guess this is the owner shutting the wallet.

Seriously fear a tough season ahead, and Nige not wishing to extend his contract in such a situation

We went through a similar stage with McInness about 10 years ago.

He was challenged with reducing the wage bill, did so and we were duly relegated.

I don’t think that will happen this season because we have better players and a much better manager.

Still disappointing to see though, while shit clubs like Luton and Bournemouth do their thing in the P.L.

Rinse and repeat.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Hello Dave said:

Obviously season ticket sales aren’t the only income, but does it cover the wage bill? If so, what do you think the expected loss will be this year?

Expected loss?  My guess c£10m profit

Operational loss (no Scott money)?  My guess? c£13m loss

(Very crude guesses)

I actually think football revenue vs football wages might be quite similar for once.

[Rob k]

1 minute ago, The Gasbuster said:

We went through a similar stage with McInness about 10 years ago.

He was challenged with reducing the wage bill, did so and we were duly relegated.

I don’t think that will happen this season because we have better players and a much better manager.

Still disappointing to see though, while shit clubs like Luton and Bournemouth do their thing in the P.L.

Rinse and repeat.

And watch Ipswich go straight through the championship too - that will be sickening 

[Kid in the Riot]

1 minute ago, Rob k said:

And watch Ipswich go straight through the championship too - that will be sickening 

Finishing below Plymouth etc 

[Cityboy1954]

6 hours ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Do we need to consider letting or or two go to bring in better? For example some of the higher earners? Williams is the standout for me, we could trade him for a more creative midfield player which we desperately need! Maybe we also need to accept Cornick/Wells to be sacrificed for a better forward player until Tommy returns. 

Trouble is who would want them .

[Hello Dave]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Expected loss?  My guess c£10m profit

Operational loss (no Scott money)?  My guess? c£13m loss

(Very crude guesses)

I actually think football revenue vs football wages might be quite similar for once.

Do you think the Scott money would be paid up front or over a period of a few seasons? We’re still losing money, even if it is less than previous years. We’ve made a profit once in the last 20 years( think it was when we sold Webster and others), surely people can see that there needs to be some belt tightening?

[Redrascal2]

12 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Cant agree,, every transfer is a risk, especially given our record, but signings from abroad just increase the risk because we dont know how they settle… kodjia was a star, fam was decent, and so was elliasson, but weve made a number of non uk signings over the last few years and a lot of them have been hopeless, with at least one established international who wanted to leave cause he was home sick.

Isn't the biggest risk those people who chose the players to sign and then agree the fees and wages. We get idiots like Johnson and Ashton signing players and it doesn't really matter where they are from. Look how well Brighton and Brentford recruit both in and out of the Premiership. Clearly a good recruitment and management team at work there. And they sign lots of foreign players 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Hello Dave said:

Do you think the Scott money would be paid up front or over a period of a few seasons? We’re still losing money, even if it is less than previous years. We’ve made a profit once in the last 20 years( think it was when we sold Webster and others), surely people can see that there needs to be some belt tightening?

It makes no difference what the payment terms are, the sale is added to the books immediately.

If SL genuinely wants total sustainability, ie to run the club as profit or break even, then he should communicate that to the fans, and why he’s changed his strategy.  The best tightening by Nige has been huge.  We are back to playing budgets in the first year or so back in the Championship!  Expecting us to challenge in the top half of the Championship on a budget of 7 years ago is ridiculous.

[Hello Dave]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It makes no difference what the payment terms are, the sale is added to the books immediately.

If SL genuinely wants total sustainability, ie to run the club as profit or break even, then he should communicate that to the fans, and why he’s changed his strategy.  The best tightening by Nige has been huge.  We are back to playing budgets in the first year or so back in the Championship!  Expecting us to challenge in the top half of the Championship on a budget of 7 years ago is ridiculous.

I totally agree we can’t challenge on a minimal budget, but, playing devils advocate, perhaps Lansdown is pissed off with losing money every year and  getting slagged off for it, hence the belt tightening.

I also agree that, if it is his intention is to try and break even, he should stop putting unrealistic expectations on the manager(s).

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Hello Dave said:

I totally agree we can’t challenge on a minimal budget, but, playing devils advocate, perhaps Lansdown is pissed off with losing money every year and  getting slagged off for it, hence the belt tightening.

I also agree that, if it is his intention is to try and break even, he should stop putting unrealistic expectations on the manager(s).

He should be thanking Nige not praising Mark Robins for reducing the need for him to put money in then

[Sir Geoff]

16 minutes ago, Hello Dave said:

I totally agree we can’t challenge on a minimal budget, but, playing devils advocate, perhaps Lansdown is pissed off with losing money every year and  getting slagged off for it, hence the belt tightening.

I also agree that, if it is his intention is to try and break even, he should stop putting unrealistic expectations on the manager(s).

I think he's getting off lightly at the moment. Just wait for 12/18 months time after he has allowed NP to leave and we are staring at a return to League one.

[Simon bristol]

57 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

Isn't the biggest risk those people who chose the players to sign and then agree the fees and wages. We get idiots like Johnson and Ashton signing players and it doesn't really matter where they are from. Look how well Brighton and Brentford recruit both in and out of the Premiership. Clearly a good recruitment and management team at work there. And they sign lots of foreign players 

Brentford and brighton have been fantastic with their signings, but even now with Johnson and ashton long gone i still wouldnt trust half of our signings, though hopefully knight and gardner hickman will come in and be stars. Our best players with a few honourable exceptions over the last 5 years or so have been academy players, we signed 2 non uk keepers in the last year and they played 1 game between them and certainly cant/ couldnt compete with max for a starting spot, but we still had to pay them!

 

[ChippenhamRed]

1 hour ago, Hello Dave said:

You say the wage bill has been slashed, but it’s still more than our incomings. Let’s say we have 15000 season ticket holders at an average of £500. That’s only £7.5m. Where does the shortfall come from? Those figures are only wages, what about the upkeep of the stadium etc?

It’s no secret that we have been losing about £20 m per season, sometimes more. These transfer fees are just plugging a gap. As much as I want us to sign a striker, creative midfielder and a keeper, we’ve got to be realistic. It’s simple housekeeping.

Our income isn’t solely down to season ticket sales - you’re forgetting lots of other revenues streams - hospitality, merchandise, TV income for example.

And the questions still stand - if our “simple housekeeping” requires us to sell a £25 million pound player and not spend a penny of it - how the hell is that in any way sustainable, what happens when we don’t have a £25 million pound player to sell, and how are other clubs competing without enormous transfer receipts?

[Mr Popodopolous]

21 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Our income isn’t solely down to season ticket sales - you’re forgetting lots of other revenues streams - hospitality, merchandise, TV income for example.

And the questions still stand - if our “simple housekeeping” requires us to sell a £25 million pound player and not spend a penny of it - how the hell is that in any way sustainable, what happens when we don’t have a £25 million pound player to sell, and how are other clubs competing without enormous transfer receipts?

Our income should be around £30m.

I expect our total cost base this season to be- talking the consolidator nor the club in isolation- in the £45-50m bracket.

Without the Scott sale? Perhaps a £15-20m loss before tax.

It's not really the Profit or loss before Tax, sure it's important and sure it is the benchmark for FFP/P&S but it is the Cash Flow that is decisive for businesses.

Simple theory of mine and others I dare say is that SL perhaps isn't so keen to stick in £10-15m per year in cash losses and is running the club accordingly. The payment structure for Scott will very much help with this.

I don't support the not reinvesting a healthy proportion of it side, just outlining one theory as to what maybe happening.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Kid in the Riot]

Our revenue is one of the highest in the Championship.

Even including clubs that have dropped down from the Premier League, we are in the top 8 in the Championship in terms of revenue.

Our off-field commercial success is a real success story compared to where we were five years ago.

There's no excuse for this Lansdown imposed austerity on the playing side. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Stoke and some of their revenue streams look a bit suspect...their Commercial Revenue grew each season in the Championship after relegation even in the 2 Covid seasons. Think we can guess eh.

[bearded_red]

Maybe the wage bill is in direct correlation to the amount of merchandise sold, and they’ve realised nobody is buying any of that crap.

[Mr Popodopolous]

 

A lot will know this already but.. 

The key bit for SL and his contribution seems to be the Cash Flow from Financing activities especially Proceeds of Shares.

Scott, Semenyo instalments will appear as they fall due in Proceeds from sale of intangible assets. They won't be specified but included within.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[The Gasbuster]

2 hours ago, Rob k said:

And watch Ipswich go straight through the championship too - that will be sickening 

…… and Bolton, and Portsmouth after returning from the dead.

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

A lot will know this already but.. 

The key bit for SL and his contribution seems to be the Cash Flow from Financing activities especially Proceeds of Shares.

Scott, Semenyo instalments will appear as they fall due in Proceeds from sale of intangible assets. They won't be specified but included within.

Instalments being the key word.  That £12m in 2022 column will likely be payments from players sold over over more than one year.

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Our revenue is one of the highest in the Championship.

Even including clubs that have dropped down from the Premier League, we are in the top 8 in the Championship in terms of revenue.

Our off-field commercial success is a real success story compared to where we were five years ago.

There's no excuse for this Lansdown imposed austerity on the playing side. 

Good info Kid, as per  

Mention of Austerity always triggers memories of Cameron & Osborne, the Dumb & Dumber of tory entitlement.

Their mates in the financial sector funked up, crashing the economy - who paid the cost? Who's still paying the cost?

Someone else.

Namely, thee and me.

Lansdown's mates, Ashton & LJ, are allowed to crash City's economy - who pays? 

Someone else.

Namely, thee, me and Nigel Pearson. 

And to think Steve Lansdown is the good guy from Hargreaves & Lansdown! Dear god. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Reefer Madness]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Our revenue is one of the highest in the Championship.

Even including clubs that have dropped down from the Premier League, we are in the top 8 in the Championship in terms of revenue.

Our off-field commercial success is a real success story compared to where we were five years ago.

There's no excuse for this Lansdown imposed austerity on the playing side. 

Is that true? Does it take into account parachute payments?

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, Reefer Madness said:

Is that true? Does it take into account parachute payments?

Based on teams in the Championship season / accounts ending summer 2022, then yes, Kid is right…we had the 8th highest turnover (blue sorted highest to lowest)

(red is losses)

 

Just as effing well, only Cardiff and Fulham made a bigger loss!

Edited August 30, 2023 by Davefevs

[Ian M]

2 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Our income isn’t solely down to season ticket sales - you’re forgetting lots of other revenues streams - hospitality, merchandise, TV income for example.

And the questions still stand - if our “simple housekeeping” requires us to sell a £25 million pound player and not spend a penny of it - how the hell is that in any way sustainable, what happens when we don’t have a £25 million pound player to sell, and how are other clubs competing without enormous transfer receipts?

Sell multiple players? Conway and Pring the prime candidates in 10 months time. So exciting.