Horrific accident

[Super]

Listening to people who know the game most seem to think it's a genuine accident.

[phantom]

55 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I saw the footage the other week and yeah seriously doesn't surprise me the guy who caused the incident was arrested.

.......... but I don't really know Ice Hockey that well

In the greatest respect the above is exactly why people are viewing it as him being guilty

He was arrested as per ANY Police investigation into the death of the person, it is where they are able to interview him on record, and hence why he has been released on bail

It's people that haven't ever played the game or skated etc not understanding his movements, to the average person they have commented on the fact they don't understand his movement, but as mentioned below the reason he got the reception he did is because it is recognised it was just a very unfortunate accident

It's the collision with the third player that caused Petgrave to be uprighted and catch Johnson 

5 hours ago, OneTeamInBristol said:

The bloke is a serial offender for committing fouls, the most penalised player last season so he has history.

The fact he got a standing ovation at the game over the weekend is disgusting.

Hardly mitigation for what happened though, fouling in Ice Hockey is all part of the game.

I'm assuming you are referring to the "Penalty Minutes" each player gets for the being "most penalised"?

For those that don't know they are the minutes a player is off the ice following a foul. It is worth pointing out his average is higher due to playing more games, he's not even the worst offender at the Steelers.

Is it like saying if Alex Scott was to seriously injure a player this season, because he was the most booked player for us last season "he has history"?

Regarding the second point, it should be pointed out his photo was shown on the big screen where he got the ovation by the full house and all the players in the area. Out of interest why do you feel this was disgusting?

36 minutes ago, Super said:

Listening to people who know the game most seem to think it's a genuine accident.

Exactly this, I defy anyone to get bumped into on an ice rink and don't go all arms and legs all over the place before crashing down to the ice

[OneTeamInBristol]

1 hour ago, phantom said:

Hardly mitigation for what happened though, fouling in Ice Hockey is all part of the game.

I'm assuming you are referring to the "Penalty Minutes" each player gets for the being "most penalised"?

For those that don't know they are the minutes a player is off the ice following a foul. It is worth pointing out his average is higher due to playing more games, he's not even the worst offender at the Steelers.

Is it like saying if Alex Scott was to seriously injure a player this season, because he was the most booked player for us last season "he has history"?

Regarding the second point, it should be pointed out his photo was shown on the big screen where he got the ovation by the full house and all the players in the area. Out of interest why do you feel this was disgusting?

Maybe I should have been a bit clearer. For clarity I don't believe he's meant to kill the poor bloke but I do think he's intended to take him out in some way or at the very least not exactly done a lot to avoid the collision. His leg being up there in that position, only he will know whether that was intentional or not.

I take your point about his PIM's being higher because he played more games but he has history of being banned for incidents on the ice:

he accrued a penalty for “tripping” in 2015-16 for New Brunswick, according to a box score for that game. He had a penalty for “holding” in 2020 while playing for the Utica Comets, in another example. He was called for “spearing” in a 2022 game with the Sheffield Steelers, according to the Elite Ice Hockey League.

From 2013 to 2017, he was listed as having 328 career penalty minutes, according to Vredshockey.com.

 

In 2010, Petgrave was suspended for five games, according to the Canadian Hockey League, which wrote, “Matt Petgrave will sit out the next five games for an infraction in the third period of last Saturday’s 9-4 win over Sarnia.”

In 2018, the ECHL announced that “Brampton’s Matt Petgrave has been suspended indefinitely and fined an undisclosed amount as a result of his actions in ECHL Game #963, Brampton at Kalamazoo, on April 7.” The ECHL is a mid-level professional ice hockey league based in New Jersey.

That same year, he was suspended for one game, according to the American Hockey League, which wrote on its website, “Laval Rocket defenseman Matt Petgrave has been suspended for one (1) game as a consequence of a slew-footing incident in a game at Toronto on Mar. 28. Petgrave was suspended under the provisions of AHL Rule 21.1 after being assessed a match penalty. He will miss Laval’s game tonight (Mar. 30) at Binghamton.”

According to the U.S. Hockey Rule Book, “Slew Footing is the act of a player using his leg or foot to knock or kick an opponent’s feet from under him.”

A statement on the ECHL’s website said, “Petgrave is fined and suspended under Rule #28 – Supplementary Discipline as a result of his actions at 3:46 of the third period. Petgrave will miss Brampton’s game against Adirondack today (April and any further discipline will be announced at a later date.” That article did not provide additional details.

 

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, Super said:

Listening to people who know the game most seem to think it's a genuine accident.

I dunno. After it happened I took a look at the reaction of the fans of Johnson's old club Pittsburgh Penguins and hundreds of them were calling it out as murder. A bit extreme, no doubt. But there was a strong concensus amongst them that it could have been avoided. 

Remember there doesn't have to be malice or intent with a manslaughter charge. 

[PHILINFRANCE]

2 hours ago, phantom said:

In the greatest respect the above is exactly why people are viewing it as him being guilty

He was arrested as per ANY Police investigation into the death of the person, it is where they are able to interview him on record, and hence why he has been released on bail.

Indeed and, as you state, he can now be interviewed on record and under ‘Caution’, i.e. he must tell the truth.

It should also be noted that he has not (yet, or even if at all) been charged.

 

 

[nebristolred]

I find it hard, or pretty much impossible to believe that it's full on murder. You'd have to be either insanely 'lucky' that that particular scenario came up or incredibly opportunistic.

But then it's down to whether he meant to hurt the player, and if he did, how much did he mean to hurt him. And when I say that, the intent doesn't necessarily have to be particularly brutal - football players intend to hurt each other every match. If there was intent, did he mean to hurt him? Probably. Did he mean to injure him so he couldn't continue? Maybe. But then actually killing him...

I'm quite clearly no legal expert but I have no idea how you even go about proving that he meant to cause any harm at all and even if you do manage that, measuring the level to which he intended it.

[PHILINFRANCE]

39 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

I find it hard, or pretty much impossible to believe that it's full on murder. You'd have to be either insanely 'lucky' that that particular scenario came up or incredibly opportunistic.

But then it's down to whether he meant to hurt the player, and if he did, how much did he mean to hurt him. And when I say that, the intent doesn't necessarily have to be particularly brutal - football players intend to hurt each other every match. If there was intent, did he mean to hurt him? Probably. Did he mean to injure him so he couldn't continue? Maybe. But then actually killing him...

I'm quite clearly no legal expert but I have no idea how you even go about proving that he meant to cause any harm at all and even if you do manage that, measuring the level to which he intended it.

I’m not sure I’ve heard or read anywhere that he has or may be charged with murder, or even manslaughter. 

As I indicated earlier, to the best of my knowledge, he has not been charged with anything whatsoever.

Edited November 15, 2023 by PHILINFRANCE

[nebristolred]

2 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

I’m not sure I’ve heard or read anywhere that he has or may be charged with murder, or even manslaughter. 

As I indicated earlier, to the best of my knowledge, he has not been charged with anything whatsoever.

Oh no I understand that, it's just as KITR referenced above, loads of people have been calling for it on Twitter, being the madhouse that it is.

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 hours ago, nebristolred said:

I find it hard, or pretty much impossible to believe that it's full on murder. You'd have to be either insanely 'lucky' that that particular scenario came up or incredibly opportunistic.

But then it's down to whether he meant to hurt the player, and if he did, how much did he mean to hurt him. And when I say that, the intent doesn't necessarily have to be particularly brutal - football players intend to hurt each other every match. If there was intent, did he mean to hurt him? Probably. Did he mean to injure him so he couldn't continue? Maybe. But then actually killing him...

I'm quite clearly no legal expert but I have no idea how you even go about proving that he meant to cause any harm at all and even if you do manage that, measuring the level to which he intended it.

It would probably fall into the same category as the one punch killings which is often unlawful act manslaughter? Which essentially means a death has occurred from a criminal act. 

In this case, the guy must have known what he did risked a physical injury. If he intended to do it, or didn't know what he did was unlawful is irrelevant. 

[nebristolred]

14 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

It would probably fall into the same category as the one punch killings which is often unlawful act manslaughter? Which essentially means a death has occurred from a criminal act. 

In this case, the guy must have known what he did risked a physical injury. If he intended to do it, or didn't know what he did was unlawful is irrelevant. 

It's not irrelevant to the type of charge he'd get though, that was part of my point.

[phantom]

Nearly a similar accident last night 

 

 

[Med/MadHatter]

Neck guards are now being worn in Junior Hockey here in Canada, I went to the Medicine Hat Tigers game last Saturday and both teams players were wearing them, the playersdidn't seem to like wearing them as loads of them were left on the ice for the ref to pick up and discard during breaks in play!

[Lew-T]

Have only just seen the footage as I wasn’t sure I could watch it. But to me, that is clear as day manslaughter.

He knew what he was doing.

[MarcusX]

When I first watched the footage my reaction was why was his foot so high. Since then, some people have said he was initially tripped by a 3rd player and that wasn't clear in the video I saw.

I think at worst he's probably tried to hit him, but I highly doubt he's intended the sort of harm that's come from it.

I've been on the receiving end of one of those challenges on the football pitch, took a kick to the head that on another day could have killed me but luckily "only" broke several bones in my face. It was someone I'd known from school and we'd had previous (ironically we spoke before the game as we were both captains and joked about keeping it friendly this time ). Speaking to people afterwards they nearly all felt he meant it, or at least could have pulled out and didn't.

I'm not sure I'd have been comfortable with him being charged with anything, but something needs to be done about these "let them know you're there" type challenges. Get it wrong and they have serious consequences.

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

On 16/11/2023 at 08:36, MarcusX said:

When I first watched the footage my reaction was why was his foot so high. Since then, some people have said he was initially tripped by a 3rd player and that wasn't clear in the video I saw.

I think at worst he's probably tried to hit him, but I highly doubt he's intended the sort of harm that's come from it.

I've been on the receiving end of one of those challenges on the football pitch, took a kick to the head that on another day could have killed me but luckily "only" broke several bones in my face. It was someone I'd known from school and we'd had previous (ironically we spoke before the game as we were both captains and joked about keeping it friendly this time ). Speaking to people afterwards they nearly all felt he meant it, or at least could have pulled out and didn't.

I'm not sure I'd have been comfortable with him being charged with anything, but something needs to be done about these "let them know you're there" type challenges. Get it wrong and they have serious consequences.

 

I don't think in the case of manslaughter that the intention has to be there to cause harm. I thinks it's something like because he assaulted him he should have known that alone caused a risk of harm.

To me, it looks like he's purposely kung-fu kicked him which could be classed as an assault. If the police can prove the assault, then the manslaughter charge will follow.

If someone assaults someone and they die from it then its manslaughter I believe because whilst there may have been no intention of killing someone, the act of assaulting someone carries a risk of harm to whatever degree. 

A reasonable person would think that assaulting someone with an ice skate, causes a risk of harm. 

[Kid in the Riot]

On 15/11/2023 at 17:03, nebristolred said:

Oh no I understand that, it's just as KITR referenced above, loads of people have been calling for it on Twitter, being the madhouse that it is.

Yes, I certainly am not claiming it could be murder. That would require evidence that it was pre-meditated and he set out to kill Johnson.

Manslaughter does not require such intent, and I could definitely see him being charged. 

[Sheltons Army]

41 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes, I certainly am not claiming it could be murder. That would require evidence that it was pre-meditated and he set out to kill Johnson.

Manslaughter does not require such intent, and I could definitely see him being charged. 

Or cause him seriously bodily harm Kid
 

All manslaughter would require is an assault , of whatever degree , common assault upwards, resulting in death.

[redkev]

On 16/11/2023 at 07:31, Lew-T said:

Have only just seen the footage as I wasn’t sure I could watch it. But to me, that is clear as day manslaughter.

He knew what he was doing.

I agree I think he knew what he was doing but I’m sure didn’t intend to do such harm , playing professional sport to win ,full of emotion & adrenaline, personally I hope he doesn’t get charged 

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, redkev said:

I agree I think he knew what he was doing but I’m sure didn’t intend to do such harm , playing professional sport to win ,full of emotion & adrenaline, personally I hope he doesn’t get charged 

And that's exactly why it is manslaughter. He knowingly carried out an unlawful act which he should have known carried a risk of causing harm. In this instance, that harm was death. 

As others have said, if he did intend the harm, it would be murder. 

Completely different but if someone was texting on their phone whilst driving and ran someone over and killed them, should they avoid punishment because they obviously didn't intend to kill someone?

Edited November 17, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull

[nebristolred]

I'm no legal expert but from I've read, an involuntary charge would only be possible if he intended to kill or cause GBH. Even if he intended to hurt him, it doesn't necessarily constitute GBH.

Edited November 17, 2023 by nebristolred