LM’s tactics & set up

[ProfitInMyPocket]

People expecting much change this season even with a new manager will be disappointed.

We haven't got the players to play attractive possession dominating football, 95% of the squad are terrified to dribble past a player in case they lose it, it's just not what we've got. 

Hell of a lot of running but quality on the ball when we get into the opposition third is something we are lacking in the squad.

I can see a few tweaks to some players' games but it'll be the same old story until we get another midfielder or two who can drive past someone and get other teams defenders panicking.

We already played at a high intensity and energy when trying to recover the ball, even Mark Robins said we had the metrics of the best pressing team in the division after we played Coventry. 

And the best players at passing forward into good areas are Vyner, Dickie and Naismith. Says it all really. 

I'm hopeful for LM but he's got a lot of work to do to try and get even more out of the midfield and forwards to create more chances. 

[Shauntaylor85]

Well I hope he finally signs a creative goal scoring mid and a quality keeper, striker. Those are the priorities. I’m still not convinced by Conway or Wells. Tommy looked highly average v Sheff Wed. 

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

Not much money available to spend in January according to radio Bristol interview with him.

[INCRED]

1 hour ago, RedM said:

Now i'm a bit confused after reading a few of the above posts on here. I thought our players were set up in a system which goes from 1st team right way down through U18's etc. And any change of Manager would be seamless as players were so drilled in this style of play?

Now Manning has arrived and people say he doesn't really play the system that we have? Either we have to rip it all up and almost retrain the players or the Manager has to change? 

Also i notice a lot of comments about him loaning in players, not a thing we are really used to for a while. Again, will this block pathways of players Tinnion is trying to push to be included?

I'm all for a fresh start now, but I hope he is allowed to do his job as after all he has the experience albeit at a lower level.

He does play a 4 at the back at times and he has enough in this squad to adapt to whatever way he sets us up. It may be the case that we get some loans in January to supplement the style he wishes us to play 

I’m intrigued to see what effect he has on our playing style 

[JP Hampton]

29 minutes ago, Offside said:

Ball retention - we struggle to maintain possession at times and give the ball away very cheaply, sometimes gifting the other team a scoring opportunity. 

 

Agree, although definitely improved on both in Saturday’s game. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by JP Hampton

[formerly known as ivan]

Managers sign players to fit their style of play, rather than position. You could have five right backs but only one would suit a system.

[JoeAman08]

18 minutes ago, ProfitInMyPocket said:

People expecting much change this season even with a new manager will be disappointed.

We haven't got the players to play attractive possession dominating football, 95% of the squad are terrified to dribble past a player in case they lose it, it's just not what we've got. 

Hell of a lot of running but quality on the ball when we get into the opposition third is something we are lacking in the squad.

I can see a few tweaks to some players' games but it'll be the same old story until we get another midfielder or two who can drive past someone and get other teams defenders panicking.

We already played at a high intensity and energy when trying to recover the ball, even Mark Robins said we had the metrics of the best pressing team in the division after we played Coventry. 

And the best players at passing forward into good areas are Vyner, Dickie and Naismith. Says it all really. 

I'm hopeful for LM but he's got a lot of work to do to try and get even more out of the midfield and forwards to create more chances. 

I don’t think we are amazing by any stretch but this is where I hope to see a big improvement. These are all professional footballers and the ability is probably there in most of them. It is getting that belief in them that we want to do this and certain mistakes are acceptable. I get the feeling under NP there weren’t any acceptable mistakes. Many seemed so afraid to do the wrong thing that they end up making a mistake anyway thinking about it. That is my opinion anyway. 
 

We 100% need more players. I don’t mean bigger squad either. We’ll see it in January and in the summer. Phasing out the likes of James, King, Williams and Weimann. Sorting out fringe players who may not fit like maybe Bajic, Tanner and Hickman(maybe loan not converted now?). Obviously a lot of the older ones OOC so will be the summer. In the mean time if we can get that number 10 in, then maybe we can go from there for now. 

[citywest30]

I really enjoyed listening to him. Other than getting a bit fed up of how many things 'alligned', he really impressed me. 

In terms of how will we set up, as others have said his principles is what came through and I think overall we will have players that will fit what he wants in terms of the foundations - a team of runners. 

Where I think he will look to improve is our creativity and guile and seemingly he will try and improve what we've got and look in the academy before going shopping but, as some one else said, I'd be amazed if we didn't see a no. 10 style player come in in January.

 

Time will tell but I'm starting to be a little bit excited about what could be.

Edited November 7, 2023 by citywest30

[Nomad]

We getting Craig Short once Oxford find a new boss?

[Sleepy1968]

18 minutes ago, JP Hampton said:

Agree, although definitely improved on both in Saturday’s game. 

There are a few things we do consitantly that leaves me scratching my head, so I would hope he can address them. For example

1. turning an attacking throw mid/deep into opp half into defensive possession (when we need to score)

2. arsing around with the ball at the back (and looking close to losing possession - maybe my nearvousness) only for MOL to end up belting it long (and giving it away)

3. hitting high balls into our 12 ft centre forward to win and control

4. hitting super long strainght balls, which you have to get near on perfect to give anyone the chance of making.

[Sleepy1968]

5 minutes ago, Nomad said:

We getting Craig Short once Oxford find a new boss?

sounds like he might be in for the Oxford job, or maybe he's doing a 'Curtis'.

[Mr Popodopolous]

44 minutes ago, Gillies Downs Leeds said:

Not much money available to spend in January according to radio Bristol interview with him.

Thanks.  At least that represents an element of consistency in strategy. Is there a link to Radio Bristol interview?

[Spud21]

16 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

I don’t think we are amazing by any stretch but this is where I hope to see a big improvement. These are all professional footballers and the ability is probably there in most of them. It is getting that belief in them that we want to do this and certain mistakes are acceptable. I get the feeling under NP there weren’t any acceptable mistakes. Many seemed so afraid to do the wrong thing that they end up making a mistake anyway thinking about it. That is my opinion anyway. 
 

We 100% need more players. I don’t mean bigger squad either. We’ll see it in January and in the summer. Phasing out the likes of James, King, Williams and Weimann. Sorting out fringe players who may not fit like maybe Bajic, Tanner and Hickman(maybe loan not converted now?). Obviously a lot of the older ones OOC so will be the summer. In the mean time if we can get that number 10 in, then maybe we can go from there for now. 

I can see that, I don't buy that our players are incapable of passing a ball 5 yards, you don't have to play incredible quality passes if you move the ball quickly, look at Ipswich, most of what they did was actually very simple in many ways, one of their main forms of attack is to work the ball wide and then cut it back to the edge of the box, they weren't needing to put in quality crosses because a relatively simple 5/10 yard cut back was doing the business. 

The way Pearson plays you can pretty much guarantee you will be in every game (realistically only Brum were we not really in the game, even then we should have made it 1-1 but Wells missed a bit of a sitter) however **** me it's been a slog to watch at times, Pearson has undoubtedly made us hard to beat and I still would have liked him to be given time to see if he could be the man to kick us on, but there were hardly glaring signs that quality football was just around the corner. 

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks.  At least that represents an element of consistency in strategy. Is there a link to Radio Bristol interview?

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Thanks. Money aside, his general outlook sounds promising. Still to watch the Press Conference etc.

[RedorDead BCFC]

Well done Dave @Davefevs getting the first fans question in. 

[JoeAman08]

12 minutes ago, Spud21 said:

I can see that, I don't buy that our players are incapable of passing a ball 5 yards, you don't have to play incredible quality passes if you move the ball quickly, look at Ipswich, most of what they did was actually very simple in many ways, one of their main forms of attack is to work the ball wide and then cut it back to the edge of the box, they weren't needing to put in quality crosses because a relatively simple 5/10 yard cut back was doing the business. 

The way Pearson plays you can pretty much guarantee you will be in every game (realistically only Brum were we not really in the game, even then we should have made it 1-1 but Wells missed a bit of a sitter) however **** me it's been a slog to watch at times, Pearson has undoubtedly made us hard to beat and I still would have liked him to be given time to see if he could be the man to kick us on, but there were hardly glaring signs that quality football was just around the corner. 

Yep my feelings exactly and I will give NP credit. I think our core now will have that mentality and hopefully mesh the new LM style with some of that NP mentality 

[JP Hampton]

14 minutes ago, Gillies Downs Leeds said:

 

Interesting he mentions the intensity of the players can’t be that if you’re unfit

[JP Hampton]

12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks. Money aside, his general outlook sounds promising. Still to watch the Press Conference etc.

Yes, must admit to feeling a little excited now

[The Swan and Cemetery]

37 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

I get the feeling under NP there weren’t any acceptable mistakes. Many seemed so afraid to do the wrong thing that they end up making a mistake anyway thinking about it. That is my opinion anyway. 

Never got this vibe (fear of making mistakes), but can see we’d want more in terms of moving the ball quickly and better off the ball movement (think @Davefevs point re Sam Bell overly hugging the touch line is very well made. In some ways would prefer not to see it, but liked Tommy coming deeper to at least given the Sheff Wed strong/swift centre backs a different decision to make). Hope speed of movement of the ball and movement off the ball can be coached if the core capability is there. Also too many poor first touches, difficult to know what’s ability vs coaching, but definitely headroom for LM to work with. 

Think we still miss Richard Gould and his bridging from hierarchy to the football side, but hopefully JL/BT are prepared to get out of Manning’s way, to at least allow him to succeed/fail on his terms. Liked the press conference, if I was putting 50p on how it will go (based on guesswork/hapless intuition), I’d say coaching may improve a bit, but not so sure about the fire in belly/motivation side of things. Hopefully I’m right on the first and wrong on the second. 

[Kid in the Riot]

Given he's good pals and a contemporary with Kieran McKenna, I'd imagine a comparison with Ipswich's style of play would be worth a look.

[Dan11]

13 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Given he's good pals and a contemporary with Kieran McKenna, I'd imagine a comparison with Ipswich's style of play would be worth a look.

It will be very similar - they share the same 'principles' (even got me saying it now!) and values on how football should be played. We played out a 0-0 draw with his MK team that from a coaching perspective must have been the highest level game played in L1 for a long time. McKenna tweaked it, Manning tweaked it ad infinitum and we just cancelled each other out. You could have listened to both post match interviews and not known which one was talking.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Dan11

[Dan11]

14 hours ago, Spud21 said:

I can see that, I don't buy that our players are incapable of passing a ball 5 yards, you don't have to play incredible quality passes if you move the ball quickly, look at Ipswich, most of what they did was actually very simple in many ways, one of their main forms of attack is to work the ball wide and then cut it back to the edge of the box, they weren't needing to put in quality crosses because a relatively simple 5/10 yard cut back was doing the business. 

The way Pearson plays you can pretty much guarantee you will be in every game (realistically only Brum were we not really in the game, even then we should have made it 1-1 but Wells missed a bit of a sitter) however **** me it's been a slog to watch at times, Pearson has undoubtedly made us hard to beat and I still would have liked him to be given time to see if he could be the man to kick us on, but there were hardly glaring signs that quality football was just around the corner. 

As a unit, our patterns of play are complexed, intricate and finely tuned but McKenna makes it very simple for the players and concentrates on what they can do, rather than what they can't do. Every player knows their role and knows where they need to be if the ball is in 'position X' or position Y'. If Davis has that ball in behind, wide left you can bet Hirst/Broadhead are sucking the defenders into the box with Chaplin holding his position waiting for the pull back.

I think you might be surprised what Manning can get out of some of the players. I am sure you have your Morsy/Burgess equivalents that can be transformed into totally different beasts. 

[Spike]

15 hours ago, ProfitInMyPocket said:

People expecting much change this season even with a new manager will be disappointed.

We haven't got the players to play attractive possession dominating football, 95% of the squad are terrified to dribble past a player in case they lose it, it's just not what we've got. 

Hell of a lot of running but quality on the ball when we get into the opposition third is something we are lacking in the squad.

I can see a few tweaks to some players' games but it'll be the same old story until we get another midfielder or two who can drive past someone and get other teams defenders panicking.

We already played at a high intensity and energy when trying to recover the ball, even Mark Robins said we had the metrics of the best pressing team in the division after we played Coventry. 

And the best players at passing forward into good areas are Vyner, Dickie and Naismith. Says it all really. 

I'm hopeful for LM but he's got a lot of work to do to try and get even more out of the midfield and forwards to create more chances. 

I agree with this but what concerns me is Manning isn't a high press man, at least not in his recent set ups, he does have his team push to regain possession in the oppositions own third but not in the relentlessly chasing manner of which the team have been playing.

My concern is much like your own, I don't think we have the personnel to play his style of possession football and what concerns me is that he may try and teach it to this squad as they are and in the Championship you get much less time on the ball. One thing Pearson did well was give us that high press so that much more talented players we played against were forced to play faster meaning they couldn't pick out as many key passes or get into the spaces where they could do damage. I think manning will still have our strikers press but I think the rest of the team will sit back a little and make sure they're behind the ball and try to pick opportunities to press instead and I'm not sure how well this team will adapt to that.

One thing I do think we may see, more of Mehmeti, he's got an eye for a pass and when he's confident will go at players, I can see Manning favouring him over Bell, same goes for Sykes, I think Manning will enjoy having a player who drives into the middle from wide positions to create opportunities and move the opposition defence so I can see us with a frontline of Mehmeti, Conway and Sykes if everyone is fit and Manning has had enough time to implement his style of football. The one thing that Mehmeti will have to do though is improve his closing down of the opposition, I've noticed that if he tries to close down and the ball is passed away it's almost like his job is done in his head, he doesn't turn and keep chasing down and I think that may be why Bell was ahead of him , as well as scoring obviously.

I do think Vyner as one of the good are passers may be a bit of a push mind, I mean for every great pass he makes he's just as likely to make a bad pass. I mean I've lost count of the cross pitch passes he's tried to play into midfield only to lose possession, it looks great when he pulls it off but it's more like a 60/40 chance of ending up with the opposition. I do think we'll see Naismith in the midfield though, maybe Naismith for his passing and vision, Knight for raw energy and closing down/battling and then TGH because of his overall passing game, corners, set pieces etc

[And Its Smith]

15 hours ago, ProfitInMyPocket said:

People expecting much change this season even with a new manager will be disappointed.

We haven't got the players to play attractive possession dominating football, 95% of the squad are terrified to dribble past a player in case they lose it, it's just not what we've got. 

Hell of a lot of running but quality on the ball when we get into the opposition third is something we are lacking in the squad.

I can see a few tweaks to some players' games but it'll be the same old story until we get another midfielder or two who can drive past someone and get other teams defenders panicking.

We already played at a high intensity and energy when trying to recover the ball, even Mark Robins said we had the metrics of the best pressing team in the division after we played Coventry. 

And the best players at passing forward into good areas are Vyner, Dickie and Naismith. Says it all really. 

I'm hopeful for LM but he's got a lot of work to do to try and get even more out of the midfield and forwards to create more chances. 

I wouldn’t rule out a change in style just yet.  Managers can improve players and he may well do.   We need to be better than the sum of parts which some coaches can achieve.  

[Harry]

5 minutes ago, Dan11 said:

As a unit, our patterns of play are complexed, intricate and finely tuned but McKenna makes it very simple for the players and concentrates on what they can do, rather than what they can't do. Every player knows their role and knows where they need to be if the ball is in 'position X' or position Y'. If Davis has that ball in behind, wide left you can bet Hirst/Broadhead are sucking the defenders into the box with Chaplin holding his position waiting for the pull back.

I think you might be surprised what Manning can get out of some of the players. I am sure you have your Morsy/Burgess equivalents that can be transformed into totally different beasts. 

It’s great to have your insight - thank you for contributing. 
The methods you example above - ie the striker pulling defenders into the box with another holding deeper for a cut back cross. This is the style which was incredibly impressive with the Bielsa Leeds team which got promoted from the championship a couple of years ago. 
The majority of their goals came from a wide player upgrading the cross to a player (often Hernandez), then cutting a cross back to the edge of the box / penalty spot, for an incoming midfielder. 
 

It was very impressive to see how often they did this and teams couldn’t stop it. 
 

On another note, I found myself on ifollow last night and watched the recent Oxford game away to Lincoln. 
They started with the 3 centre backs, with 2 the wing backs. 
However, Long (the right Cb) got injured very early and he switched the formation. 
And it was quite something. 
 

He had Brown & Moore as 2 traditional CB’s. 
He then had Stevens as a pretty much traditional RB. 
However, Leigh on the left side was still acting very much more like a wing back. So there was a bit of a lop-sided back 4 with Leigh slightly more advanced. 
This was countered by how the midfield set up. He had McGuane and Brannigan as 2 CM’s. Mills had come on as a sub and was a traditional Right winger. 
But because he trusted Leigh to cover the whole left side this allowed Goodram and Rodrigues to play as 2 AM’s. So again, a lop-sided midfield/attack. 2 CB’s, 1 RB, 1 wing back on the left, 1 winger on the right, 2 x AM’s and 2 x CM’s with 1 ST. 
 

It was good to watch. Lincoln really struggled to get the ball out from the back. Whilst they weren’t actively pressing really high, the design of the system stifled Lincoln getting the ball through midfield. 

He allowed himself to do this knowing that having Leigh on the left he’d be able to cover the whole side with his energy and pace. So it was very much a case of ‘knowing your players’. 
There were a couple of times, when Lincoln did manage to break through the midfield box, that they did have space behind the midfield, so there were flaws, but it was very interesting to watch. 

[Sheltons Army]

16 hours ago, Harry said:

 

Much as we all (most) loved Nige and the job he’s done, I know it’s been discussed plenty that we were rather one-dimensional as an attacking force - so can LM instil something different in that respect? Thats what I’m looking for initially - are we improving ….

Let’s hope he can

 

Lets also hope he can maintain the culture / team ethic / attitude that had been grown (Im not suggesting Manning won’t - he’s largely an unknown quantity in many respects ) but for a successful side,  a number of components are required.

 

I’ve previously described LJs opportunity as the opportunity of a generation with regards to what he’s inheriting and potential backing.

Id suggest Manning now has the same level of golden opportunity

Slim squad that can be built upon , some good emerging young players , some good experienced pros and of course Lansdowns nest egg

There really isn’t much of an excuse to go backwards or fester

Edited November 8, 2023 by Sheltons Army

[Davefevs]

28 minutes ago, Harry said:

It’s great to have your insight - thank you for contributing. 
The methods you example above - ie the striker pulling defenders into the box with another holding deeper for a cut back cross. This is the style which was incredibly impressive with the Bielsa Leeds team which got promoted from the championship a couple of years ago. 
The majority of their goals came from a wide player upgrading the cross to a player (often Hernandez), then cutting a cross back to the edge of the box / penalty spot, for an incoming midfielder. 
 

It was very impressive to see how often they did this and teams couldn’t stop it. 
 

On another note, I found myself on ifollow last night and watched the recent Oxford game away to Lincoln. 
They started with the 3 centre backs, with 2 the wing backs. 
However, Long (the right Cb) got injured very early and he switched the formation. 
And it was quite something. 
 

He had Brown & Moore as 2 traditional CB’s. 
He then had Stevens as a pretty much traditional RB. 
However, Leigh on the left side was still acting very much more like a wing back. So there was a bit of a lop-sided back 4 with Leigh slightly more advanced. 
This was countered by how the midfield set up. He had McGuane and Brannigan as 2 CM’s. Mills had come on as a sub and was a traditional Right winger. 
But because he trusted Leigh to cover the whole left side this allowed Goodram and Rodrigues to play as 2 AM’s. So again, a lop-sided midfield/attack. 2 CB’s, 1 RB, 1 wing back on the left, 1 winger on the right, 2 x AM’s and 2 x CM’s with 1 ST. 
 

It was good to watch. Lincoln really struggled to get the ball out from the back. Whilst they weren’t actively pressing really high, the design of the system stifled Lincoln getting the ball through midfield. 

He allowed himself to do this knowing that having Leigh on the left he’d be able to cover the whole side with his energy and pace. So it was very much a case of ‘knowing your players’. 
There were a couple of times, when Lincoln did manage to break through the midfield box, that they did have space behind the midfield, so there were flaws, but it was very interesting to watch. 

Ta H.

You could see similar applied with us.  Pring the athlete doing one side, Tanner the more defensive on the other.  Last season before Semenyo was sold, it meant Semenyo didn’t have to play left-wing, but played much closer to Wells or Cornway as a left-inside-forward.

The advantages were:

• space for Pring
• Semenyo’s extra physicality up against the opp. CBs to support the less strong Conway or Wells
• lots of delivery from the left for people like Sykes to pop up at the back-stick

All very simple stuff without getting hung-up on traditional formations / positions.

And that was under Nige.

It did leave Pring exposed, but most teams saw Semenyo’s threat and tended to tuck-in their RB alongside their RCB, so he rarely got exposed 2v1. 

[Spud21]

52 minutes ago, Dan11 said:

As a unit, our patterns of play are complexed, intricate and finely tuned but McKenna makes it very simple for the players and concentrates on what they can do, rather than what they can't do. Every player knows their role and knows where they need to be if the ball is in 'position X' or position Y'. If Davis has that ball in behind, wide left you can bet Hirst/Broadhead are sucking the defenders into the box with Chaplin holding his position waiting for the pull back.

I think you might be surprised what Manning can get out of some of the players. I am sure you have your Morsy/Burgess equivalents that can be transformed into totally different beasts. 

Agreed and that was the point I am trying to make, is that the overall plan might be complex but the individual things that players do is (relatively speaking) simple, like you saw when the ball is here you go there type of thing, and that can allow players to perform to and above their perceived ability. 

I don't think anyone would on paper look at Morsey and Luongo in terms of just ability and and say ooh thats going to be a midfield pair that will be probably the best in the division but it is. 

I think in many ways with coaches like McKenna there is almost a change in outlook that in many ways looks back to a bygone era in their outlook (if you account for the modernisation of language) where they speak far more about the attitude and application etc etc than a tactic or a formation or whatever, they are man managers more than pure tactical heads, Lee Johnson had a good knowledge of tactics but he couldn't get that across and overcomplicated everything which eventually led to confusion and eventually the players get bored of it. 

Whearas the likes of McKenna and hopefully Manning will get to know the players and thus what they can and can't / won't be coached to do. 

[RedM]

16 hours ago, Gillies Downs Leeds said:

Not much money available to spend in January according to radio Bristol interview with him.

Also, are there ever any real bargains or players available in the Jan window? You would either pay over the odds as clubs know you are desperate or get someone who isn't necessarily your first choice 

In reality, there can't be many of us who thought promotion was happening this season, and even more so now. I am happy for Manning and his team to bed in, have a good look and spend wisely in the Summer window on what he decides we need.