LM’s tactics & set up

[Son of Fred]

15 hours ago, Spud21 said:

it's been a slog to watch at times, Pearson has undoubtedly made us hard to beat and I still would have liked him to be given time to see if he could be the man to kick us on, but there were hardly glaring signs that quality football was just around the corner. 

You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear ....

[bcfc01]

8 minutes ago, RedM said:

Also, are there ever any real bargains or players available in the Jan window? You would either pay over the odds as clubs know you are desperate or get someone who isn't necessarily your first choice 

In reality, there can't be many of us who thought promotion was happening this season, and even more so now. I am happy for Manning and his team to bed in, have a good look and spend wisely in the Summer window on what he decides we need.

Agreed.

But JL gave himself a get out clause by saying "if there is an opportunity whereby a player becomes available that we would have brought in during the summer window, we could bring that forward". I paraphrase and he used less words, but that was the gist.

I think that could be the "excuse" for opening the cheque book for LM in January, especially if we are knocking on the door of the top 6.

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 hours ago, Spike said:

I agree with this but what concerns me is Manning isn't a high press man, at least not in his recent set ups, he does have his team push to regain possession in the oppositions own third but not in the relentlessly chasing manner of which the team have been playing.

My concern is much like your own, I don't think we have the personnel to play his style of possession football and what concerns me is that he may try and teach it to this squad as they are and in the Championship you get much less time on the ball. One thing Pearson did well was give us that high press so that much more talented players we played against were forced to play faster meaning they couldn't pick out as many key passes or get into the spaces where they could do damage. I think manning will still have our strikers press but I think the rest of the team will sit back a little and make sure they're behind the ball and try to pick opportunities to press instead and I'm not sure how well this team will adapt to that.

One thing I do think we may see, more of Mehmeti, he's got an eye for a pass and when he's confident will go at players, I can see Manning favouring him over Bell, same goes for Sykes, I think Manning will enjoy having a player who drives into the middle from wide positions to create opportunities and move the opposition defence so I can see us with a frontline of Mehmeti, Conway and Sykes if everyone is fit and Manning has had enough time to implement his style of football. The one thing that Mehmeti will have to do though is improve his closing down of the opposition, I've noticed that if he tries to close down and the ball is passed away it's almost like his job is done in his head, he doesn't turn and keep chasing down and I think that may be why Bell was ahead of him , as well as scoring obviously.

I do think Vyner as one of the good are passers may be a bit of a push mind, I mean for every great pass he makes he's just as likely to make a bad pass. I mean I've lost count of the cross pitch passes he's tried to play into midfield only to lose possession, it looks great when he pulls it off but it's more like a 60/40 chance of ending up with the opposition. I do think we'll see Naismith in the midfield though, maybe Naismith for his passing and vision, Knight for raw energy and closing down/battling and then TGH because of his overall passing game, corners, set pieces etc

I have my concerns that Mannings style may not fit with what we have been playing and what it was stated we was looking for. I'm not sure we have the players to play how he wants.

I don't want to rip everything up and start again and sign x amount of players to fit his way of playing. 

I hope he can get the best out of what we have already got and can enhance upon that in the window.

In all my time of watching us, we've never really been a possession heavy side. Ashton Gate tends to not like possession football imo. 

One thing that stuck in my mind from his Oxford interview when we beag them was that he seemed surprised by our quality. He's going to have to adapt to that very quickly. The Championship is relentless. 

[Cowshed]

19 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Worth listening to his press conference (live one) on now.  I think any one who’s listened so far, would have few worries.

He is not fixed, but has principles.

In football Dave principles are fixed. Really they are. As my rather qualified coaching mentor explained, "If you are changing your principles, their not ******* principles, styles change not the principles".

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

In football Dave principles are fixed. Really they are. As my rather qualified coaching mentor explained, "If you are changing your principles, their not ******* principles, styles change not the principles".

That’s what I said.  I was replying to someone talking about styles.

[Numero Uno]

20 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

We've barely got 2 fit CBs so good luck to him if he chooses to switch to it now. 

The point I'm making that if he wants to play his preferred formation here, he'd need to spend money to do so. 

I'd rather that money was spent on enhancing the system we currently play.

If the money is spent wisely and we win football matches he can play rush back keepers for all I care….

[Numero Uno]

34 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I have my concerns that Mannings style may not fit with what we have been playing and what it was stated we was looking for. I'm not sure we have the players to play how he wants.

I don't want to rip everything up and start again and sign x amount of players to fit his way of playing. 

I hope he can get the best out of what we have already got and can enhance upon that in the window.

In all my time of watching us, we've never really been a possession heavy side. Ashton Gate tends to not like possession football imo. 

One thing that stuck in my mind from his Oxford interview when we beag them was that he seemed surprised by our quality. He's going to have to adapt to that very quickly. The Championship is relentless. 

The quality is higher but he’s also working with better players too. Not as good in all positions as we want them to be but better nonetheless.

Possession football is fine as long as it’s got purpose. Funnily enough the best chance we missed Saturday was a 48 pass move I believe it was and I would guess 35 of those passes were literally sideways and backwards. If you can create the same chances with better movement and only take ten passes you are onto a winner imo.

[Dan11]

3 hours ago, Harry said:

It’s great to have your insight - thank you for contributing. 
The methods you example above - ie the striker pulling defenders into the box with another holding deeper for a cut back cross. This is the style which was incredibly impressive with the Bielsa Leeds team which got promoted from the championship a couple of years ago. 
The majority of their goals came from a wide player upgrading the cross to a player (often Hernandez), then cutting a cross back to the edge of the box / penalty spot, for an incoming midfielder. 
 

It was very impressive to see how often they did this and teams couldn’t stop it. 
 

On another note, I found myself on ifollow last night and watched the recent Oxford game away to Lincoln. 
They started with the 3 centre backs, with 2 the wing backs. 
However, Long (the right Cb) got injured very early and he switched the formation. 
And it was quite something. 
 

He had Brown & Moore as 2 traditional CB’s. 
He then had Stevens as a pretty much traditional RB. 
However, Leigh on the left side was still acting very much more like a wing back. So there was a bit of a lop-sided back 4 with Leigh slightly more advanced. 
This was countered by how the midfield set up. He had McGuane and Brannigan as 2 CM’s. Mills had come on as a sub and was a traditional Right winger. 
But because he trusted Leigh to cover the whole left side this allowed Goodram and Rodrigues to play as 2 AM’s. So again, a lop-sided midfield/attack. 2 CB’s, 1 RB, 1 wing back on the left, 1 winger on the right, 2 x AM’s and 2 x CM’s with 1 ST. 
 

It was good to watch. Lincoln really struggled to get the ball out from the back. Whilst they weren’t actively pressing really high, the design of the system stifled Lincoln getting the ball through midfield. 

He allowed himself to do this knowing that having Leigh on the left he’d be able to cover the whole side with his energy and pace. So it was very much a case of ‘knowing your players’. 
There were a couple of times, when Lincoln did manage to break through the midfield box, that they did have space behind the midfield, so there were flaws, but it was very interesting to watch. 

That is what Davis does for us - incredible athlete who covers the whole left side allowing Broadhead to tuck inside. Leigh was obviously with us last season and was the back up in that position. We've now got Clarke/Williams who are similar athletes on the right side so it is a more conventional 4-2-3-1 but during the first half of last season we played with Donacien as a hybrid RB/CB so our defenders would all roll over one position when Davis bombed on with us moving into a 3-4-3. 'Knowing your players', what they are capable of and their strengths and weaknesses is obviously the key. Because I am a bit sad, I listened to a bit of Manning's press conference and heard him use the term 'coachable players' several times - he will want players he can improve and that are tactically intelligent. As we've learned, it also helps with squad building as you can more easily recruit to one style if your players can be adaptable and play more than one position/role. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Dan11

[Davefevs]

36 minutes ago, Dan11 said:

As we've learned, it also helps with squad building as you can more easily recruit to one style if your players can be adaptable and play more than one position/role. 

Which is where a lot of my criticism of Mark Ashton comes from in the Owner / CEO / Head-Coach dynamic he has here.  It makes me the spawn of satan on TWTD!

I don’t really have any issues with him as a Football-Administrator at all, but his interference in recruitment and happiness to have no real strategy together with no football identity to recruit to together with using a very small number of “preferred agents” led to a financial mess and poor / scattergun recruitment.

[Dan11]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Which is where a lot of my criticism of Mark Ashton comes from in the Owner / CEO / Head-Coach dynamic he has here.  It makes me the spawn of satan on TWTD!

I don’t really have any issues with him as a Football-Administrator at all, but his interference in recruitment and happiness to have no real strategy together with no football identity to recruit to together with using a very small number of “preferred agents” led to a financial mess and poor / scattergun recruitment.

I understand that - obviously you know far more about the dynamics when he was with you. I think it helps us that McKenna is so precise about what/who he wants. He's said himself his list of targets is tiny and he'd rather have nobody than someone that isn't the right fit. I think Manning will be the same for you, he will know exactly what he is looking for. 

[Lrrr]

On 07/11/2023 at 16:46, W-S-M Seagull said:

I don't want him to recruit for his preferred 3 at the back. That's not what the brief was. 

What do we do then? Change how all the youth teams also play? 

He needs to stick with 433 and whatever variation of that and recruitment should be around that. 

We don't need revolution here.

If he can't do that then he's not the right appointment. 

If the board are willing to give him time and money to change things then they've lied to us.

 

Formations mean jack shit, the club should have principles around the style of play/philosophy and the formation is just the realisation of that in the form that best presents itself in how to be successful whether its 3 at the back or 4. Ideally you should have a squad that is flexible enough to play either as if you recruit to just one and get found out you leave yourself wanting and scratching about. Academy sides shouldn't be forced to play one formation either, its not like a 1st team where you can buy players to fill gaps (EPPP aside). If someone is missing you either use someone else in that age group to fill a gap or go to the age group below for a player, whats better is players learning how to play multiple formations and the roles within that and learning how to be successful doing this, it helps you prepare long term as in football a player could have 5 different head coaches of the first team by the time they reach it and imagine if each gave their own instructions on how the academy was made to play from bottom to top. The only one you could make some allowance for playing like the 1st team would be the U21's. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Formations mean jack shit, the club should have principles around the style of play/philosophy and the formation is just the realisation of that in the form that best presents itself in how to be successful whether its 3 at the back or 4. Ideally you should have a squad that is flexible enough to play either as if you recruit to just one and get found out you leave yourself wanting and scratching about. Academy sides shouldn't be forced to play one formation either, its not like a 1st team where you can buy players to fill gaps (EPPP aside). If someone is missing you either use someone else in that age group to fill a gap or go to the age group below for a player, whats better is players learning how to play multiple formations and the roles within that and learning how to be successful doing this, it helps you prepare long term as in football a player could have 5 different head coaches of the first team by the time they reach it and imagine if each gave their own instructions on how the academy was made to play from bottom to top. The only one you could make some allowance for playing like the 1st team would be the U21's. 

If I hear that word 'principles' one more time   

[Sheltons Army]

46 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

If I hear that word 'principles' one more time   

This is the only Principal , to focus on atm   WSM

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Sheltons Army said:

This is the only Principal , to focus on atm   WSM

 

Are you saying you got out of the shower this morning and it was all a dream and Nige is still in charge?

(or have you got webbed feet?)

[The Original OTIB]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

If I hear that word 'principles' one more time   

F that, effin "Philosophy" drives me mad. Lazy shorthand for largely clueless analysis and observation of a perceived style/ approach.

[Cowshed]

22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

That’s what I said.  I was replying to someone talking about styles.

I misread it, still triggered by years of a n other banging on about identity while going through styles.

[DaveInSA]

This is well interesting

I've always believed that formations are irrelevant in football - after all, the game isn't played rigidly with banks of players (3-5-2) like table football  . I'm fascinated by tactics shifting to accommodate the players' strengths - if Manning can do this with BCFC, we will be in for a treat. I've often thought that we're too static, too predictable, too dull in possession (at least at AG) - part of the reason for not going that much anymore. It's so frustrating to watch and very easily countered by the opposition.

If our players have the intellect, discipline and drive for a much more nuanced approach, then I am all for it. Especially if it clicks and the games become "fun" again.