Engerlund vs N Macedonia

[luke_bristol]

Just now, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Lescott doing his upmost to not laugh at the fans clearly singing “channel 4 it’s ******* shit”

Disappointed with the Kane interview, why not ask him what he thought of the referee? It’s the standout performance of the evening, and he’s allowed to say he’s shit, just not allowed to question his integrity.

[redkev]

2 minutes ago, luke_bristol said:

Disappointed with the Kane interview, why not ask him what he thought of the referee? It’s the standout performance of the evening, and he’s allowed to say he’s shit, just not allowed to question his integrity.

That’s what I was thinking , obviously can’t say the ref is shite , but when he was asked about the penalty have some back bone and just say THAT WAS NEVER A PENALTY HOW CAN HE GIVE THAT ESPECIALLY AFTER SEEING IT ON VAR , that would be perfect not calling the ref shite ( even though he was ) but getting the message across loud and clear this clown shouldn’t ref another international game again 

[Wrongagain]

Feel for the fans that made the trip, hard to say which was worse the players lack of pride or the not fit for purpose man in the middle - can’t call him a ref because he was utter rubbish

[RedRock]

 

3 minutes ago, luke_bristol said:

Disappointed with the Kane interview, why not ask him what he thought of the referee? It’s the standout performance of the evening, and he’s allowed to say he’s shit, just not allowed to question his integrity.

Ref was indeed pretty poor, but VAR was abject and England totally clueless. 

Good job the evening wasn’t entirely wasted though with that Belly air-kick, followed be an exquisite pass, for an assist which made the combined 200 minutes of watching England’s ‘elite’ teams worthwhile.

Now just itching to see our new front-foot, aggressive, high pressing team destroy Boro in a Saturday festival of football. 

 

[1960maaan]

Not his best game, but Foden is one of the few players that adds energy to the team. Saka and Rice try but with Grealish on the left it's a regular dead end. If we play an inverted winger, play someone behind that will fill the space, preferably one their right sides. Lewis drifted out of the game and Southgate watched, why not be proactive with Subs.
No denying, he's done well with the team, consistently getting into the important parts of the tournaments . But with the attacking talent we have he's really not making the most of it. 

It really is getting harder to watch England , might improve with better opposition in the tournament but I feel we will try and not lose our way to the final.

[Sheltons Army]

The last couple of games, with qualification assured ,  haven’t been great , ( I thought we were much brighter tonight)

But anyone who thinks we are boring / hard watch etc these days have very very short memories

[maxjak]

Just got back from the pub where i watched the game............so i have not had an opportunity to trawl through the comments...............but the general opinion within the crowd of people with whom i watched the match was that the referee ruined the game with his myopic decisions and constant pettiness?  England lacked ideas and motivation, but were by far the better of the 2 sides.  A bit of a nothing game with nothing riding on it?  Forgettable! ......and    In fact i have already forgotten about it?                            

[Fammyfan]

Firmly in the Southgate out camp!

Continuously selecting players that are out of form or not playing at all.

Rashford should be nowhere near the team, albeit on the bench, his performances have been awful. Phillips doesn’t get gametime, yet continuously gets picked for the squad and brought on.

Southgate uses the England games as an opportunity to give Phillips a run out, as he did with Maguire (albeit his club performances have improved of late). It should be an honour and an achievement to represent England, it shouldn’t be used to give players minutes.

Whilst Maguire’s performances have improved, I can’t help but get frustrated at how slow he is on the ball.

Sterling should be in this squad and would be there on merit. As would Ward-Prowse. Ben White would be more suited to this team than our current centre backs (though I don’t know the reasons for his departure from the World Cup).

All in all, I used to think highly of Southgate when he picked players on merit and brought a real togetherness to the squad. I genuinely felt he was a few in game decisions away from success.

Now we’re seeing him pick his favourites whilst ignoring merit. He keeps bringing on the same under performing players that continue to let us down more often than not.

We have the strongest squad we’ve had in my lifetime and we’re struggling to beat Malta and failing to beat North Macedonia.

We will not win the Euros under Southgate!

[Markthehorn]

He’ll definitely play 2 defensive midfielders which is the problem.

Has a safety first attitude.

We are going to rely on Bellingham and Kane a lot whilst hoping Saka/Foden play well .

Not that the attacking players today didn’t really do enough but then not helped by being pulled up for fouls so often .

[Kid in the Riot]

Wow Ukraine absolutely robbed of a late penalty against Italy.

Assuming there was VAR, it's just pure corruption at this point. 

VAR has really been an unmitigated disaster.

[Markthehorn]

4 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Wow Ukraine absolutely robbed of a late penalty against Italy.

Assuming there was VAR, it's just pure corruption at this point. 

VAR has really been an unmitigated disaster.

Yes there would have been .

  Certainly seen them given but not a  clear and obvious error ?

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Markthehorn

[luke_bristol]

9 minutes ago, Markthehorn said:

Yes there would have been .

  Certainly seen them given but not a  clear and obvious error ?

 

 

That is a joke. That is gross misconduct incompetence ffs.

[Kid in the Riot]

12 minutes ago, Markthehorn said:

Yes there would have been .

  Certainly seen them given but not a  clear and obvious error ?

 

 

Sorry but compared to the other stuff that VAR magically finds, a last minute penalty claim like that at least needs to be reviewed.

An absolute shocker, especially given the stakes were so incredibly high - for more than just footballing reasons for Ukraine too. 

[Cidre Monita]

18 minutes ago, Fammyfan said:

Firmly in the Southgate out camp!

Continuously selecting players that are out of form or not playing at all.

Rashford should be nowhere near the team, albeit on the bench, his performances have been awful. Phillips doesn’t get gametime, yet continuously gets picked for the squad and brought on.

Southgate uses the England games as an opportunity to give Phillips a run out, as he did with Maguire (albeit his club performances have improved of late). It should be an honour and an achievement to represent England, it shouldn’t be used to give players minutes.

Whilst Maguire’s performances have improved, I can’t help but get frustrated at how slow he is on the ball.

Sterling should be in this squad and would be there on merit. As would Ward-Prowse. Ben White would be more suited to this team than our current centre backs (though I don’t know the reasons for his departure from the World Cup).

All in all, I used to think highly of Southgate when he picked players on merit and brought a real togetherness to the squad. I genuinely felt he was a few in game decisions away from success.

Now we’re seeing him pick his favourites whilst ignoring merit. He keeps bringing on the same under performing players that continue to let us down more often than not.

We have the strongest squad we’ve had in my lifetime and we’re struggling to beat Malta and failing to beat North Macedonia.

We will not win the Euros under Southgate!

For some reason the media and ex-players seem to love Southgate. The guy was a failure at Middlesbrough seeing them relegated in his final season there. He only got the job because he was already in the England set-up and the FA had to replace Big Sam quickly to avoid further embarrassment. I think he is very negative and has zero tactical nous. We have lost/exited the last 3 tournaments due to him not knowing how to change personnel and/or tactics to win a big game. He looks absolutely clueless but hey ho he’s good with the media and I heard the other day that the FA may be considering a longer contract. Tbh I think big Nige would do a better job with the talent available and I’m being serious!! 

[Bris Red]

15 minutes ago, Markthehorn said:

Yes there would have been .

  Certainly seen them given but not a  clear and obvious error ?

 

 

That is a disgrace. A clear clear penalty..

The Italians very lucky - would have loved to see them not qualify for yet another major tournament aswell. 

[Harry]

29 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Not his best game, but Foden is one of the few players that adds energy to the team. Saka and Rice try but with Grealish on the left it's a regular dead end. If we play an inverted winger, play someone behind that will fill the space, preferably one their right sides. Lewis drifted out of the game and Southgate watched, why not be proactive with Subs.
No denying, he's done well with the team, consistently getting into the important parts of the tournaments . But with the attacking talent we have he's really not making the most of it. 

It really is getting harder to watch England , might improve with better opposition in the tournament but I feel we will try and not lose our way to the final.

I note you’ve mentioned a couple of times about Grealish coming inside but you’ve praised Saka. 
Saka comes inside just as much as Grealish. They both do it. 
Both sometimes get success and manage to find the little through ball but mostly they end up playing it back. 
The difference between the 2 of them tonight was that Grealish did actually manage to get a couple of quick 1-2’s and get behind into the box for a crossing opportunity. Saka didn’t. 
Overall, if you are to compare just these 2 inverted wingers in tonight’s performance, Grealish was more effective than Saka. 
 

However, these 2 talented inverted wingers are not England’s main problem. It’s the ponderous approach play, the lack of overlapping options, and the lack of bodies in the box once either of these wingers does get into a good crossing position. 
 

Our slow build up play is actually very painful to watch. I don’t mind teams keeping the ball, moving side to side, one pass forward one pass back etc. But such possession based build up should be designed to pull the opposition around and try to create passing channels and holes. Because we play it so slowly we don’t actually pull the opponents around and create holes. We just plod. And it’s not just Maguire (although he does tend to get all the flak), it happens with Stones too, it happened tonight with Guehi, Walker & Rice too.
 

It’s just way too slow from all of them. It means that when we do finally play it forward to Grealish, Saka or Foden, they are invariably not in a hole but are already confronted with 2 defenders.
It’s all just too bloody slow.  
 

There were about 3 or 4 occasions tonight where we upped the tempo, moved it quicker, and we looked much more dangerous and had the Macedonians on the retreat and panicky. We just don’t do it enough. And it’s the most disappointing aspect of our current style under Gareth. 

[luke_bristol]

5 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Sorry but compared to the other stuff that VAR magically finds, a last minute penalty claim like that at least needs to be reviewed.

An absolute shocker, especially given the stakes were so incredibly high - for more than just footballing reasons for Ukraine too. 

Just compare that challenge with the one that gifted North Macedonia tonight, then consider the first one was by the home of football corruption. Absolutely criminal. 

[Fammyfan]

7 minutes ago, Cidre Monita said:

For some reason the media and ex-players seem to love Southgate. The guy was a failure at Middlesbrough seeing them relegated in his final season there. He only got the job because he was already in the England set-up and the FA had to replace Big Sam quickly to avoid further embarrassment. I think he is very negative and has zero tactical nous. We have lost/exited the last 3 tournaments due to him not knowing how to change personnel and/or tactics to win a big game. He looks absolutely clueless but hey ho he’s good with the media and I heard the other day that the FA may be considering a longer contract. Tbh I think big Nige would do a better job with the talent available and I’m being serious!! 

You’re right that he was very fortunate to get the job, as you’ve said, only due to him being in the set up.

I still haven’t got over the Italy game, that’s the glaring one as they had both Bonucci and Chiellini on bookings and with them both lacking pace, Italy were there for the taking.

We’ve got 3 players that I believe could get into a world best 11 in Walker, Bellingham and Kane. We’ve got a bunch of Man City players that play with cohesion in Grealish, Foden, Walker, Stones, Lewis. Players like Saka and Rice are could probably walk into the worlds top clubs.

I can see there being a lot of uproar if he fails to win the Euros and they still give him a new contract, though it wouldn’t surprise me. Especially with the Euros coming to the UK in 2026, I can see them giving him until then given the togetherness he builds. It would be disappointing, as I agree he lacks the tactical nous to take us over the line.

[Sheltons Army]

33 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Sorry but compared to the other stuff that VAR magically finds, a last minute penalty claim like that at least needs to be reviewed.

An absolute shocker, especially given the stakes were so incredibly high - for more than just footballing reasons for Ukraine too. 

The incident comes just days after UEFA president Aleksander Ceferin said it would be a 'disaster' if Italy faily to qualify for Euro 2024 - which was lamented by Ukraine head coach Serhiy Rebrov.

Ceferin said: 'Italy must qualify for Euro 2024, otherwise it will be a disaster, the Italian national team is too important, but I think it will beat Ukraine.'  
 

 

[Harry]

37 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Sorry but compared to the other stuff that VAR magically finds, a last minute penalty claim like that at least needs to be reviewed.

An absolute shocker, especially given the stakes were so incredibly high - for more than just footballing reasons for Ukraine too. 

I can see why it wasn’t given. 
First touch goes far too far away for the player to be able to have any possible chance of retrieving it. And he does make a meal of it. 
Is it a penalty? - Yes, absolutely. But I can understand the decision to not give it. 

[pillred]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Wow Ukraine absolutely robbed of a late penalty against Italy.

Assuming there was VAR, it's just pure corruption at this point. 

VAR has really been an unmitigated disaster.

For what it's worth tonight I thought it should have been a penalty against Maguire and not against Lewis so I suppose it evened itself out. But yes all in all VAR has not covered itself in glory, the time it takes being my main gripe.

[transfer reader]

Going against the grain here, but really not convinced by that Ukraine penalty shout.

Happy to change my mind with another angle, but from that one above there is minimal, if any contact and Mudryk has absolutely thrown himself to the ground and done a Neymar-esque set of rolls which I think a few people have bought.

Maybe that wild sniper had migrated.

Was there contact? Perhaps. Certainly not on the leading foot but probably on his back foot.

Was there contact that would have prevented Mudryk from getting to the ball? Really hard to tell, Mudryk has already thrown himself forward by the time the of any contact.

Certain the first angle used on the replay it appears there's contact, but the final one, from behind it doesn't seem so to me.

Final question, even saying yes there was contact and yes it was enough to bring him down, was he in control of the ball/would he have been?

Again, I'm really not sure, 2 other defenders and Donnaruma there and his touch wasn't particularly tight, the balls gone loose and the keeper is getting it regardless.

Now, in a VAR world it should certainly have got looked at I will not disagree on that in the slightest. But I really think Mudryks theatrics have done him (and Ukraine) there.

[Alex_BCFC]

5 hours ago, Wrongagain said:

Feel for the fans that made the trip, hard to say which was worse the players lack of pride or the not fit for purpose man in the middle - can’t call him a ref because he was utter rubbish

To be fair, as one of those travelling fans, I’m not really there for the football. Build caps, great time in a cheap drinking city etc. Nothing on the game so hard to worry too much - we’ve turned up when required in this group. 

[redkev]

8 hours ago, Wrongagain said:

Feel for the fans that made the trip, hard to say which was worse the players lack of pride or the not fit for purpose man in the middle - can’t call him a ref because he was utter rubbish

Going away to watch England is much more than just the 90 mins , 

[redkev]

8 hours ago, Cidre Monita said:

For some reason the media and ex-players seem to love Southgate. The guy was a failure at Middlesbrough seeing them relegated in his final season there. He only got the job because he was already in the England set-up and the FA had to replace Big Sam quickly to avoid further embarrassment. I think he is very negative and has zero tactical nous. We have lost/exited the last 3 tournaments due to him not knowing how to change personnel and/or tactics to win a big game. He looks absolutely clueless but hey ho he’s good with the media and I heard the other day that the FA may be considering a longer contract. Tbh I think big Nige would do a better job with the talent available and I’m being serious!! 

Who’s Big Nige

[Rob k]

7 hours ago, pillred said:

For what it's worth tonight I thought it should have been a penalty against Maguire and not against Lewis so I suppose it evened itself out. But yes all in all VAR has not covered itself in glory, the time it takes being my main gripe.

Of the 3 penalty decisions I saw last night, all 3 were completely wrong. What’s the point in VAR? 

[1960maaan]

7 hours ago, Harry said:

I note you’ve mentioned a couple of times about Grealish coming inside but you’ve praised Saka. 
Saka comes inside just as much as Grealish. They both do it. 
Both sometimes get success and manage to find the little through ball but mostly they end up playing it back. 
The difference between the 2 of them tonight was that Grealish did actually manage to get a couple of quick 1-2’s and get behind into the box for a crossing opportunity. Saka didn’t. 
Overall, if you are to compare just these 2 inverted wingers in tonight’s performance, Grealish was more effective than Saka. 
TBH I have mentioned before I may have a blind spot where Grealish is concerned. For me, those occasions Saka adds a little burst into the  box (and he linked more with players going outside of him) make him more of a threat. Definitely more of a goal threat. Grealish seems to slow the play nearly every time, and though I do take your point I don't think either were effective last night. 

However, these 2 talented inverted wingers are not England’s main problem. It’s the ponderous approach play, the lack of overlapping options, and the lack of bodies in the box once either of these wingers does get into a good crossing position. 
Totally agree.
The slow play is a thing every time we play a team where we dominate possession, we only every seem to play at pace occasionally and invariably that's when we look a threat.
I know it's not as easy as saying play quicker, but we pass from man to man across the line where the longer pass to switch angles is often on. 

Our slow build up play is actually very painful to watch. I don’t mind teams keeping the ball, moving side to side, one pass forward one pass back etc. But such possession based build up should be designed to pull the opposition around and try to create passing channels and holes. Because we play it so slowly we don’t actually pull the opponents around and create holes. We just plod. And it’s not just Maguire (although he does tend to get all the flak), it happens with Stones too, it happened tonight with Guehi, Walker & Rice too.
I thought Lewis was an odd choice tonight. May have been the right thing to give him a debut, but that role he played seemed to make the build up slower ( and I'm not blaming him, he did ok). Against a side that wanted to sit and restrict space, width is the one thing you want and we rarely made the by line.

It’s just way too slow from all of them. It means that when we do finally play it forward to Grealish, Saka or Foden, they are invariably not in a hole but are already confronted with 2 defenders.
It’s all just too bloody slow.  
 

There were about 3 or 4 occasions tonight where we upped the tempo, moved it quicker, and we looked much more dangerous and had the Macedonians on the retreat and panicky. We just don’t do it enough. And it’s the most disappointing aspect of our current style under Gareth. 

With the attacking talent available, pace through the team and midfielders who can spot and play the passes, it does seem like are playing with shackles on.
Maybe next years tournament will be the one he starts to attack , though I doubt it.

 

[Harry]

51 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

 

I agree on the role Lewis played last night. It seemed Southgate has been influenced by the likes of Pep allowing his full backs to play inside in midfield. Thing is, that works well when you have the quick possession and ability to quickly break lines. 
It didn’t work last night with our ponderous build up. 

As you say, ideally when a team sits in and attempts to thwart, you need width, you need quick interplay, you need switches of play. You need to pull the opposition around. Last night they were able to just sit. They didn’t need to press the defenders or Rice on the ball, they just sat and outnumbered the player when they received the pass. How many diagonal switches did we see last night. None that I recall! 
 

A mate of mine made an interesting point this morning. 
In Southgate’s early days we would see Maguire bring the ball forward, stride into midfield, attract the opposition midfield which allowed him to then find a forward pass to the winger or midfielder who would now have found space. It was a pretty stock move that we did for a long time. 
We don’t do that any more. If a team decides not to press high, then our CB’s and Rice really struggle to move the ball quickly. 
He needs to get back to allowing one of the CB’s to bring the ball into midfield to create space for the more attacking players. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Harry

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Harry said:

He needs to get back to allowing one of the CB’s to bring the ball into midfield to create space for the more attacking players. 

Moving away from England for a sec, I think it’s either getting Pring and Tanner to move infield without the ball (I don’t like the term “invert” even though I use it) to create space outside and / or create overloads in midfield, or…

 

….we get Dickie, Vyner or Naismith (whoever plays) to start bringing it into midfield.

 

[1960maaan]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Moving away from England for a sec, I think it’s either getting Pring and Tanner to move infield without the ball (I don’t like the term “invert” even though I use it) to create space outside and / or create overloads in midfield, or…

 

….we get Dickie, Vyner or Naismith (whoever plays) to start bringing it into midfield.

 

 

I was looking forward to exactly what we saw in that Pre Season game. 
Dickie driving into midfield and Wells/Sykes/Bell's  movement giving him the option for a pass. Injuries (amongst other things) stopped us seeing if that would work. 

That bottom photo shows Wells & Sykes (?) really pushing to get in behind, something that England didn't/couldn't do last night, too often anyway . With England I think Maddison would help , finds pockets & sees passes . Bellingham changes things massively too, increases tempo and good movement. Shaw & Chilwell help that left side with width too.  
Some of these qualifiers have been hard to watch, if we make the knockout stages then the only thing to slow our play is our own caution, we could see the best of England then. If allowed.