Swansea sack Duff

[Lrrr]

14 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Culture or tactics? Change of playing style? A different emphasis?

Culture is the wrong term. That’s what Nige had to sort out when he arrived. Hence the reorganisation of the playing and coaching side of things, while still having to reduce the wage bill and bring through young players from the academy. Manning has none of those things to deal with, he’s got a nest egg for transfer fees and a target of making the play offs. That’s it.

The bigger question is who carries the can if it all goes tits up? Well it won’t be those who appointed Manning, that’s for darn sure!

Perhaps but could easily be said in a way 'there's a culture here that we're not willing enough to be patient on the ball and try and force things when they're not on', therefore saying he's got to change the approach and mindset of the squad and what they buy into and in effect changing the culture. Its a many faceted word. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Lrrr

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I did say "kinda" 

Mmmm…..not sure even kinda does it for me

[Dr Balls]

Just now, Lrrr said:

Perhaps but could easily be said in a way 'there's a culture here that we're not willing enough to be patient on the ball and try and force things when they're not on', therefore saying he's got to change the approach and mindset of the squad and what they buy into and in effect changing the culture.

Playing culture? Maybe. Mindset would probably a better term for a different tactical approach that Manning wants. Question is whether the players suit that way of playing (probably not) or buy into it (no idea). Still think he would be a much better fit for Swansea. Anything less than 70% possession is not what they are used to!

[E.G.Red]

36 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In which case it is possible that he was a bad fit.

It's not really fair on Manning but I really don't see the fans being especially patient due to the context.

The booing on Sunday so soon into his reign is a bellwether. Time will tell but..

The only way or the best way in which he can buy time to gradually change the style is wins. He needs to win games and accumulate points at least at a reasonable rate. If not..

1.4 PPG.

To be fair some fans booed when Nigel was in charge. I didn't want Nigel to go and I worry that all the work Nigel did on and off the pitch will be overturned in a 'rebuild' rather than a 'build on' . 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, E.G.Red said:

To be fair some fans booed when Nigel was in charge. I didn't want Nigel to go and I worry that all the work Nigel did on and off the pitch will be overturned in a 'rebuild' rather than a 'build on' . 

Yeah this is true, booing is nothing new!

Agreed, should've kept NP and let him build on his good work, new deal, bigger budget etc.

A rebuild is the last thing we need.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Dr Balls]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah this is true, booing is nothing new!

Agreed, should've kept NP and let him build on his good work, new deal, bigger budget etc.

A rebuild is the last thing we need.

And this goes back to another thing that Tinnion had previously said about all the various teams setting up the same way as the first team, so that all players were used to a particular style of play. That goes out the window if you bring in a new coach with a completely different approach.

[Lrrr]

4 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

And this goes back to another thing that Tinnion had previously said about all the various teams setting up the same way as the first team, so that all players were used to a particular style of play. That goes out the window if you bring in a new coach with a completely different approach.

I've always said academy teams shouldn't be built around the first team (perhaps U21's aside). When players are younger they need to learn to play a number of positions and roles for their development, he doesn't play for us anymore but an example being Towler, he was a CM for the most part and changed to being a CB as an U18, as a result he's gone on to have a professional career where he may not have if he stayed a CM. Players need to learn to play in a number of different formations and systems. If a player is in the U13's (I believe when they start playing full pitch in academy football) then by the time he's 21 and at the end of the academy system he could have easily had 4 different managers of the first team, imagine the upheaval if you allow your first team manager to dictate the formation the academy plays. You could have 2 really good promising centre forwards and for us lets just use Conway and Bell as an example. Could you imagine if we'd had someone come in and say 'Oh we're only ever going to play with one CF', either one then gets significantly less game time and probably gets released or you share the game time more evenly and both get less game time. Formation needs to be based around the players in your age group. 

Sure principles of play can change and thats completely different but I've never bought into the idea 'oh the first team plays 352 (for wants of naming a formation) so the academy must play it too'. 

[Davefevs]

40 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

If its a tactical overhaul that's needed then all you're doing is kicking the can down the road to when that change needs to be made. Realistically if he did as you suggest then the first real opportunity he'd have to commit the amount of training time required to changing system would be when this season is dead and that could be March, frankly its a waste of 4 months or so and a January window in the hope that we finish in the play offs by not changing too much. This season has essentially been sacrificed for players to get used to Manning's style inside and out for next season as much as its a pain for the remaining games for people going to watch. If we pick up results in the mean time and are somehow in the hunt still then its a bonus. 

Ah, eff it then…if the season has been sacrificed!!!

Just trying to find that quote from the hierarchy!

28 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

One of the statements Liam made early was innocuous but has troubled me more over time in respect of the group “They’re very coachable”.

By nature professional footballers have more ability than 99.99% of the population so that can’t mean coachable in terms of ability but is more likely to be coachable in “play this way”. And to me, at the start of a journey at least, that’s anti coaching. The best coaches work out what they have and how they play best with that group of players and adapt/move to their preferred approach over time. Not doing so ends up as a Duff at Swansea scenario. And if your preferred approach is the same as other teams you’d better be better at it then them - and we’re not.

In any profession, going in as a boss and trying to immediately bend a workforce to your methods is seen as a no no. It’s a very basic error that I think he’s making here.

That was pretty much the point of my devils advocate statement…and aimed at all managers not LM specifically.

What if a manager is pushing to implement his own “trusted stuff”, he misses something else?

I think that’s where Nige’s experience of doing different things with different teams, and even here at City, because budgets were so tight, he tried to find “systems” that worked for the players.  He went through different transitions.

That was all generic stuff.

Re you final bit, I can’t make that judgement on Manning yet.  I really want to sit and watch back Sunday’s game.  There are things I’m specifically looking for that I’ve picked up in the first three games.  But you are right, it is a no-no.

[Lrrr]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Ah, eff it then…if the season has been sacrificed!!!

Just trying to find that quote from the hierarchy!

Yep good luck with that one 

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah this is true, booing is nothing new!

Agreed, should've kept NP and let him build on his good work, new deal, bigger budget etc.

A rebuild is the last thing we need.

The reason I felt as if it was so important to get this appointment right is that for the first time in forever we actually have a settled side. We have no legacy contracts of dead wood. 

It was primed for someone to come in and take it forward. 

Every since day 1 with Manning I pointed out that his style and ours is different. That was obvious when he said "if the other team don't have the ball, they can't score" 

My worry was rather than Manning taking this group of players forward, he'd need to bring in his own players to make his system work. That then creates deadwood if it works out or not. So we're then essentially embarking upon another rebuild, when we really didn't need to. 

At this moment in time, I'm hesitant to give Manning funds in Jan because if it doesn't work out and we realise he wasn't what we was looking for, we are then stuck with players that fit Mannings system and not ours. 

My worry is however that the board will give whatever Manning requires, just like they did with LJ to prove that he was the right appointment. But for me, if they have to do that, that shows he wasn't the right appointment for what we needed. 

Most of us on here agree that if Nige was given money for 2-3 more players, we'd have been in that top 6. 

I think Tinnion has come off of X because he realises that fans are now questioning how we've ended up with a head coach that doesn't fit with what it was stated we were looking for. It leads me to think, did BT and JL actually know what they were getting? 

Edited December 5, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull

[One Team]

6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah this is true, booing is nothing new!

Agreed, should've kept NP and let him build on his good work, new deal, bigger budget etc.

A rebuild is the last thing we need.

Indeed, booing happens all manner of times.

That said I didn’t expect it 57 minutes into the Boro game! Plenty of “Jon Lansdown what a manual manipulator” as well during that game. 

It won’t take many more losses for it to get really toxic. 

[Silvio Dante]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

What if a manager is pushing to implement his own “trusted stuff”, he misses something else?

 

It’s kind of a similar point to the thing I’ve been highlighting on game management where Manning seems to have not so far shown an ability to be adaptable in game. If you like, not realising it’s “cat and mouse”….

Hes undoubtedly got a style that relies on heavy possession and, for want of a better term, boring the opposition into mistakes. As @Dr Balls has pointed out, that is a prevalent style, and the higher you go up the leagues is less likely to work - defenders are more mentally attuned and switched on, managers see what you’re doing quicker and adapt accordingly.

As I said, if everyone is doing it you’d better be the best at it, and if your squad isn’t set up to play it, then you don’t enforce it. Basics. 
 

Appointing a manager to impose a style that is in fashion currently when you don’t have the squad to implement it is a gamble at best, as it relies on that coach being the best. But, equally, if that coach is so wedded to one form of the game that he can’t adapt you’d just as well employ anyone that’s read the same textbook.

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

The reason I felt as if it was so important to get this appointment right is that for the first time in forever we actually have a settled side. We have no legacy contracts of dead wood. 

It was primed for someone to come in and take it forward. 

Every since day 1 with Manning I pointed out that his style and ours is different. That was obvious when he said "if the other team don't have the ball, they can't score" 

My worry was rather than Manning taking this group of players forward, he'd need to bring in his own players to make his system work. That then creates deadwood if it works out or not. So we're then essentially embarking upon another rebuild, when we really didn't need to. 

At this moment in time, I'm hesitant to give Manning funds in Jan because if it doesn't work out and we realise he wasn't what we was looking for, we are then stuck with players that fit Mannings system and not ours. 

My worry is however that the board will give whatever Manning requires, just like they did with LJ to prove that he was the right appointment. But for me, if they have to do that, that shows he wasn't the right appointment for what we needed. 

Most of us on here agree that if Nige was given money for 2-3 more players, we'd have been in that top 6. 

I think Tinnion has come off of X because he realises that fans are now questioning how we've ended up with a head coach that doesn't fit with what it was stated we were looking for. It leads me to think, did BT and JL actually know what they were getting? 

Taking each bold bit in turn:

The only redeeming bit of that is that the squad is small and with a few contracts up in June, there isn’t much deadwood to actually get rid of.

I think we just have to wait and see who those players are.  We are gonna learn lots in the next 8 weeks.

I agree, I’ll be disappointed if it doesn’t feel like continuation.

I think we’d be more the mix, more confident of being in the mix

JL - he’s just a football fan like you and me in the main, Tins, you’d like to think knew what he was getting, regardless of the weakness of the “front foot, high pressing, forward thinking attacking football” comment that seems to apply to every manager.

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

It’s kind of a similar point to the thing I’ve been highlighting on game management where Manning seems to have not so far shown an ability to be adaptable in game. If you like, not realising it’s “cat and mouse”….

Hes undoubtedly got a style that relies on heavy possession and, for want of a better term, boring the opposition into mistakes. As @Dr Balls has pointed out, that is a prevalent style, and the higher you go up the leagues is less likely to work - defenders are more mentally attuned and switched on, managers see what you’re doing quicker and adapt accordingly.

As I said, if everyone is doing it you’d better be the best at it, and if your squad isn’t set up to play it, then you don’t enforce it. Basics. 
 

Appointing a manager to impose a style that is in fashion currently when you don’t have the squad to implement it is a gamble at best, as it relies on that coach being the best. But, equally, if that coach is so wedded to one form of the game that he can’t adapt you’d just as well employ anyone that’s read the same textbook.

Yeah, I know where you’re coming from.

Interesting you use the term “boring” because that was how I described the period leading up to h-t against Boro when we scored our two goals.  Bored Boro started to try and “force it” and we countered on their mistakes in the main.  I also mentioned somewhere that transition football feels more exciting to watch in many respects.

Strap yourself in!

[bcfc01]

11 hours ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Bit boring this has turned into another thread around our current managerial situation.

For the record I think Duff is a good manager, actually thought he’d do well at Swansea because he did get very good results at Cheltenham and Barnsley. I see him doing well at this level but also the only surprise is he didn’t go earlier 

Amost every thread, it is boring with the usual suspects.

Since LMs appointment my ignore list and ignore thread list must be reaching a limit - is there one, hope not ?

 

[Ronnie Sinclair]

The sacking season now well and truly underway, Heckingbottom gone at Sheffield United 

[22A]

Just a thought; as there are transfer windows for players, introduce them for Managers etc.

These would start & end a month before the player windows. This way Managers, once the season had started, would know that as a replacement cant be signed immediately and Directors would have to promote internally or select teams themselves.

[RedM]

16 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

And this goes back to another thing that Tinnion had previously said about all the various teams setting up the same way as the first team, so that all players were used to a particular style of play. That goes out the window if you bring in a new coach with a completely different approach.

So if we don't get the team to play 'our way' under the coach (who has played a different way all his career), then the coach has to change (his way) which seems bonkers?

[Baldyman]

Mowbray too ! At this rate every side apart from the top two will be changing Manager this season ! Defo reckon the Championship ought to have a November “ transfer window” allowing clubs to swap managers and avoid massive pay offs

Edited December 5, 2023 by Baldyman

[BCFC31]

This has luke Williams written all over it 

[Montpelierblue]

On 04/12/2023 at 21:21, Markthehorn said:

Slow start then had a good little run but generally hasn't found any consistency . 

Isn't Jones a Cardiff fan too so certainly wouldn't go down well! 

He is, I would love it if they gave him the job….please let that happen.

[Ronnie Sinclair]

The way its going they could get Cooper back, 0-2 down at Fulham currently and in wretched form 

[W-S-M Seagull]

On 05/12/2023 at 21:47, BCFC31 said:

This has luke Williams written all over it 

Taken them a month but indeed it does. 

 

[Ronnie Sinclair]

On 03/01/2024 at 18:30, W-S-M Seagull said:

Taken them a month but indeed it does. 

 

Williams appointed this afternoon.

 

I also see Salford have hired Karl Robinson - quite a fall from Leeds assistant for a few games last season to the bottom tier this 

Edited January 5 by Ronnie Sinclair

[cidercity1987]

Interesting to see how he does

Many would have preferred him to Manning 

Edited January 5 by cidercity1987

[Sir Geoff]

7 minutes ago, Ronnie Sinclair said:

Williams appointed this afternoon.

 

I also see Salford have hired Karl Robinson - quite a fall from Leeds assistant for a few games last season to the bottom tier this 

Think he was with Rooney at Birmingham (Karl Robinson).

[cotswoldred2]

4 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Interesting to see how he does

Many would have preferred him to Manning 

And why would that be? Apart from the obvious not missing an opportunity to stick another boot into the club.

How does his style fit in with what we need do you think? 

[TV Tom]

10 minutes ago, Ronnie Sinclair said:

Williams appointed this afternoon.

 

I also see Salford have hired Karl Robinson - quite a fall from Leeds assistant for a few games last season to the bottom tier this 

How this man keeps getting a job is beyond me, most overrated manager of recent times

[petehinton]

Can’t lie, feel a bit envious. Was in my top 3 faves to come in when Nige went. Plays extremely attractive attacking football, and always comes across really well, engaging and articulate in anything media related. 

[frenchred]

24 minutes ago, cotswoldred2 said:

And why would that be? Apart from the obvious not missing an opportunity to stick another boot into the club.

How does his style fit in with what we need do you think? 

See Pete's post above

[Supersonic Robin]

21 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Can’t lie, feel a bit envious. Was in my top 3 faves to come in when Nige went. Plays extremely attractive attacking football, and always comes across really well, engaging and articulate in anything media related. 

Fair points, but you can also make a decent argument against him if it makes you feel any better? 

His only management experience in the Football League consists of half a season (this season) in L2, and a full season at Swindon in L1 in which they were relegated.

Can you imagine the uproar if we appointed a manager essentially on the basis that they had 1 good season managing in the National League? 

(not saying this would necessarily be my take on him)