Foxpunter - Twitter

[Silvio Dante]

I know this guy has come up before but I find his work very interesting. He did a long post on Duff this morning which it’s hard to disagree with (first post) and that inspired me to look to see if he’d done anything on Manning - which he did, immediately after we appointed (second post).
 

Approximately one month later, it’s absolutely fascinating to read.

 

 

[Bedred31]

Any pundit with the ability to include Liam Manning and George Bernard Shaw I’m a single sentence gets my vote.

[bcfc01]

Foxpunter is usually spot on, he got NP right and our situation at that time.

Hopefully, he is also on the button with Manning as that was a very positive summation of him.

[sh1t_ref_again]

58 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I know this guy has come up before but I find his work very interesting. He did a long post on Duff this morning which it’s hard to disagree with (first post) and that inspired me to look to see if he’d done anything on Manning - which he did, immediately after we appointed (second post).
 

Approximately one month later, it’s absolutely fascinating to read.

 

 

Thought I would paste it in for those without X as interesting article

So what’s all this fuss about Liam Manning? 

How does a manager who initiated MK Dons' surprise relegation into League Two last season now find himself in the dugout of a stable Championship club?

Well, image goes a long way. 

And Manning's image is one of deep knowledge and unmistakable potential.

He's like an AI-generated modern football manager.

He has answers. Good answers.

But most of all, he ticks all the boxes of what the modern fan appreciates and wants to see.

He gets philosophy. He gets tactics. He gets process. He gets xG. He gets all analytics. He gets youth player development. He gets going abroad to learn your craft.

He gets pretty much everything. But he never gets emotional.

And personally, I don’t like that about him.

I prefer the occasional spike from a manager, just to know he’s human so I can get my profiling kicks.

But Manning is immaculate. Too immaculate. Like a comprehensive ChatGPT response.

When he gets a prompt from a local reporter, everything that comes back is polished and professional - in a way that leaves you wondering more about the database that the reply came from, rather than the actual reply itself.

If he sounds like a walking coaching manual, it’s not only because he has evidently swallowed several of them but also because he has already been coaching for 17 years

He might only be 38 but Manning bought himself a 14-year runway to the senior touchline after quickly giving up the ghost of a playing career that was never going to happen.

Jose Mourinho was the main man when he first started putting out balls, bibs and cones.

And believe it or not, Manning shares a lot of personality traits with the Special One - the main difference being masculine and feminine flow states, which from the outside is a world of difference.

When Mourinho was in his pomp, the buzz was logistics and documentation. The Portuguese took match preparation and training ground effectiveness to a whole new level and that's what every aspiring young coach wanted to emulate. So Manning has the bulky dossier and in-depth presentation - "I think it's now the tenth edition" - with several hundred slides that detail his entire football philosophy step by step. Pep Guardiola is the big dog nowadays and Manning already had a few years of grass roots between his studs when Pep Confidential was released and the copycat culture kicked into action. Whatever gaps he had in his knowledge of Pep, you would assume those were coloured in by a stint with City Football Group either side of Covid. The main point beIng, Manning might ache with modernity but his three years in the professional dugout are merely the tip of the iceberg in terms of the foundation he is building on. There's a derogatory line from a George Bernard Shaw play that has echoed in cynical minds for more than a century: "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach." But it's an important aspect of the personality code that some people - Lead Blasts - are just born teachers. They can internalise information very quickly, stack knowledge on top of knowledge, and feel duty bound to spread the wealth rather than capitalise by keeping those insights to themselves.

Manning is one of them.

Had he not seen the writing on the wall and thrown in the towel on his playing career at 21, there’s no way he would have reached his current level of managerial competence.

To desrcibe his leadership style in a nutshell: he’s tribe above self, and driven by a feminine desire to improve others. Players don't adapt to him, he adapts to them.

So where's the blind spot? What's the weakness?

Why did it go pear-shaped at Milton Keynes? 

And what cues will alert us to the possibility of history repeating itself?

Well, he's extremely logical. In fact, make that borderline robotic. Hence, the AI analogy.

In post-match interviews, Manning frequently talks about 'emotional intelligence' and 'emotional stability' as he knows he is powerless when feelings take hold of the steering wheel.

Once players allow their emotions to get the better of them, his logic stops landing.

And he isn't good at coping with powerful emotions, let alone harnessing them as a force to deliver big surprises, so he adopts the position of prevention being better than cure. He prefers to cross the Amazon at source. And he does it often. Constant reminders. Don't get emotional. Stick to the process. Keep your emotions in check. This is a big shift from Nigel Pearson, who bathed in a spirit of togetherness. The values Pearson leaves behind should stick around for a while in the form of a happy camp where the bonds are strong and everybody gets along. 

But gradually, under Manning, collective accomplishment - hitting your KPIs - will be the currency by which togetherness is fostered and maintained.

So results will matter. A tension-building winless run at any point - let's say 6-8 games - could hit harder than other places, triggering unwanted compound effects.

In any case, Manning is everything the club reportedly wanted when the phrase 'training ground manager' was being bandied about following Pearson's departure.

He will improve players and possibly turn one or two of them into big 

financial assets.

And objectively, Manning is right to turn his back on Oxford.

Probability-wise, it's a no-brainer.

The Yellows have made a solid start to the season but they are currently punching above their performance data.

A top-six finish is now highly probable. But their chances of promotion next May are the wrong side of a coin toss.

Instead, Manning moves up a level, in a stadium with four sides and crowds more than double the size. While from an expectation standpoint, the risks are slight. A play-off finish at any point in the next 2.5 years would be lauded from both inside and outside of Ashton Gate, yet the foundations are solid enough that a significant shortcoming would be required to dice with relegation. Perhaps most exciting of all, Manning now has the opportunity to imprint a modern brand of football on a passionate fanbase that has never truly had one. No big footsteps to follow. He's not a hostage to inevitable comparisons. This is all fresh.

Then the cherry on top of the cake is the kids.

As someone who isn't pushy or confrontational, Manning is on record saying he prefers to work with talented youngsters as they are naturally more open and receptive.

He now walks into one of the best academies at the level where a clear pathway to the first team is already established.

We know he's good, and we know he can get better.

Time to find out just how high that ceiling is.
 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Use of KPIs is an interesting one.

Will Manning have these himself ie PPG, total points in a season, League position, and so on.

I would suggest a few if so:

*1.4 PPG

*63-65 pts in a season

*Perhaps 8th-11th

That would be for this season. More likely 10th or 11th than above but.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[1960maaan]

I like Foxpunter, thought I'd followed him after the Pearson one and just realised I hadn't .
Very good write up and maybe explains why we went when we did. It's been said elsewhere, if he was lined up as our next man maybe they thought there was a chance we could have missed out through interest from elsewhere. 

[Davefevs]

@TV Tom this was kinda what I was alluding to about Duff last night.

those last two paras are exactly what I meant.

[cidered abroad]

He has almost everything going for him and his last twenty years must have gleaned and learnt a mass of data and tactics. So his knowledge is not in doubt.

But how good a manager of professional footballers is he?

That remains to be seen and we all know that hardened pros can be a real handful if they choose to not join in. And unlike many other industries, they will be able to dig in, enjoy the pay and do sod all to comply.

How he deals with that, if it happens, will determine his success on the field.

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

Foxpunter is usually spot on, he got NP right and our situation at that time.

Hopefully, he is also on the button with Manning as that was a very positive summation of him.

It seems he was very much on the money when he said "Manning isn't good at coping with powerful emotions" 

Not sure how this can be considered a positive considering there are a lot of powerful emotions flying about the club right now. 

[Clutton Caveman]

21 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I know this guy has come up before but I find his work very interesting. He did a long post on Duff this morning which it’s hard to disagree with (first post) and that inspired me to look to see if he’d done anything on Manning - which he did, immediately after we appointed (second post).
 

Approximately one month later, it’s absolutely fascinating to read.

 

 

Great read thanks for posting

[Merrick's Marvels]

A coach for 18 years but unable to react to Norwich's tactical readjustment, resulting in a mess of a second half and defeat. 

Our individual errors may not have been so costly if the collective, coaches included, had found an answer to the opposition's second half tactics.

This is grown up football now, not some lower league kick about.

It's still early days but the jury remains out. 

[Port Said Red]

34 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

A coach for 18 years but unable to react to Norwich's tactical readjustment, resulting in a mess of a second half and defeat. 

Our individual errors may not have been so costly if the collective, coaches included, had found an answer to the opposition's second half tactics.

This is grown up football now, not some lower league kick about.

It's still early days but the jury remains out. 

But their change of tactics wasn't what won them the game, we were still in the ascendency until the sucker punch of a long ball over the top and an individual error.

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

But their change of tactics wasn't what won them the game, we were still in the ascendency until the sucker punch of a long ball over the top and an individual error.

They scored two second half goals whilst we scored 0. 

[Port Said Red]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

They scored two second half goals whilst we scored 0. 

But not because of their change of tactics, unless you think that having their keeper playing a blinder and hitting 50 yard hopeful long balls in the last minute was always their game plan?

[W-S-M Seagull]

42 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

A coach for 18 years but unable to react to Norwich's tactical readjustment, resulting in a mess of a second half and defeat. 

Our individual errors may not have been so costly if the collective, coaches included, had found an answer to the opposition's second half tactics.

This is grown up football now, not some lower league kick about.

It's still early days but the jury remains out. 

Its reminiscent of the LJ days. Start off OK. Get to half time. Players told more of the same please. 

Opposition has then figured us out and changes things. LJ and LM both naive to think they won't change things. They then are both unable to react to those changes (probably waiting for the analysts to tell them what to do) Our game plan has then gone out of the window and then we just throw on some random substitutions. 

They both spend so much time coaching plan A that when plan A doesn't work, there is no other plan. 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

They scored two second half goals whilst we scored 0. 

Out of interest, what do you think Norwich changed tactically in the second half?

[W-S-M Seagull]

9 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

But not because of their change of tactics, unless you think that having their keeper playing a blinder and hitting 50 yard hopeful long balls in the last minute was always their game plan?

Their change of tactics got them to the point where they could win the game with the last kick of the game. 

Idah was brought on with this exact thing in mind. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull

[1960maaan]

25 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Its reminiscent of the LJ days. Start off OK. Get to half time. Players told more of the same please. 

Opposition has then figured us out and changes things. LJ and LM both naive to think they won't change things. They then are both unable to react to those changes (probably waiting for the analysts to tell them what to do) Our game plan has then gone out of the window and then we just throw on some random substitutions. 

They both spend so much time coaching plan A that when plan A doesn't work, there is no other plan. 

I think that's a little unfair on a small sample for Manning so far, plus one unlucky OG and another that was batshit crazy. 
There were times under Johnson and again Pearson when I thought we got caught out, and under both there were games we just threw on extra strikers, I've never liked that. 

You may turn out to be right, but he's here and I'm happy to give him some time. It does feel like the appointment they wanted to make when LJ came here , young up and coming talented Manager. LJ was too inexperienced with too many ideas, Manning has coached at various levels for some time, so hopefully his ideas have been formed already.  
Whether it will work , only time will tell .

[Port Said Red]

10 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I think that's a little unfair on a small sample for Manning so far, plus one unlucky OG and another that was batshit crazy. 
There were times under Johnson and again Pearson when I thought we got caught out, and under both there were games we just threw on extra strikers, I've never liked that. 

You may turn out to be right, but he's here and I'm happy to give him some time. It does feel like the appointment they wanted to make when LJ came here , young up and coming talented Manager. LJ was too inexperienced with too many ideas, Manning has coached at various levels for some time, so hopefully his ideas have been formed already.  
Whether it will work , only time will tell .

You're wasting your time if you are waiting for "fairness" from him, he has been in the ABP group from day one and I doubt there is an appointment we could have made that would have satisfied him.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

A coach for 18 years but unable to react to Norwich's tactical readjustment, resulting in a mess of a second half and defeat. 

Our individual errors may not have been so costly if the collective, coaches included, had found an answer to the opposition's second half tactics.

This is grown up football now, not some lower league kick about.

It's still early days but the jury remains out. 

Your jury is out after four games.

The players will not be able to react yet to the readjustments Liam Manning is making. Its logical with a team at the forming stage that some players will not cope and fall away. Messes should be an expectation when implementing a differing model of play, in Manning speak the team/squad will not collectively have gained the behaviours, culture and use the principles of play that make success more likely. 

In grown up football despite what a Jon Lansdown thinks a coach will not integrate their playing intent into a squad of players in four games. 

On 05/12/2023 at 14:43, Mr Popodopolous said:

Use of KPIs is an interesting one.

Will Manning have these himself ie PPG, total points in a season, League position, and so on.

I would suggest a few if so:

*1.4 PPG

*63-65 pts in a season

*Perhaps 8th-11th

That would be for this season. More likely 10th or 11th than above but.

KPI's can be used very differently.

Key performance indicators are the metrics of individual players and units and the team.

KPI's for central midfielders can be physical - Players have to run 10km + and the unit a collective figure.

Forwards have to display a physical KPI of what can be called DTI (defensive tactical intensity) where a player has to be able to consistently close a player down in a given time, recover in a identified time and this can also be a collective unit (pressing) figure. 

On these KPI's proceed including possession across zones, thirds , players and units leading to penetrative passes, XG's assists etc.

The KPI's can be Mr Mannings behaviours. Players KPI's become goals to achieve, goal focus to improve individually, and collectively behaviours as a team - Behaviours implemented as a team that make success more likely. 

This is not a claim to be exact for this coach, but its not uncommon practice in coaching

[Port Said Red]

54 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Your jury is out after four games.

The players will not be able to react yet to the readjustments Liam Manning is making. Its logical with a team at the forming stage that some players will not cope and fall away. Messes should be an expectation when implementing a differing model of play, in Manning speak the team/squad will not collectively have gained the behaviours, culture and use the principles of play that make success more likely. 

In grown up football despite what a Jon Lansdown thinks a coach will not integrate their playing intent into a squad of players in four games. 

KPI's can be used very differently.

Key performance indicators are the metrics of individual players and units and the team.

KPI's for central midfielders can be physical - Players have to run 10km + and the unit a collective figure.

Forwards have to display a physical KPI of what can be called DTI (defensive tactical intensity) where a player has to be able to consistently close a player down in a given time, recover in a identified time and this can also be a collective unit (pressing) figure. 

On these KPI's proceed including possession across zones, thirds , players and units leading to penetrative passes, XG's assists etc.

The KPI's can be Mr Mannings behaviours. Players KPI's become goals to achieve, goal focus to improve individually, and collectively behaviours as a team - Behaviours implemented as a team that make success more likely. 

This is not a claim to be exact for this coach, but its not uncommon practice in coaching

And to be fair it's not uncommon in most businesses these days, anyone who has had a performance based review will have heard the term and how it relates to what they do. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

2 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

But their change of tactics wasn't what won them the game, we were still in the ascendency until the sucker punch of a long ball over the top and an individual error.

If we'd found an answer to their 2nd half tactics and continued to dominate by building from the back successfully, we'd likely have scored more goals - rendering our individual bloopers irrelevant.

But we didn't. They blocked off Dickie. We had no answer. Our first half level dropped off, we lost control of the game and allowed Norwich back into it.

This wouldn't have happened if we were capable of reacting to some pretty basic tactical tweaks by the opposition.

And I'm disappointed that someone who talks a good game, has been coaching for 18 years, gives it the big one about working in Prem academies and for the Man City lot, didn't have an answer.

As I say, early days. Perhaps he has hidden depths that will wow us in the fullness of time. If so, he'll need a new midfield for starters, "top 6" squad or not.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Mr Popodopolous]

Tbh I looked at the stats in a little more depth and after the first 20 of the half we had pulled back some control.

5 shots to 1, 70% Possession. Sadly they scored from that one shot albeit possibly they were not too unhappy with the point until the late opportunity presented itself.

The slow start to halves, first and especially 2nd remains a concern for me though, seems to be a recurring theme during the early tenure of Manning.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[cidered abroad]

I am wondering about the changes to our tactics and their implementation.

With LJ and I also think Manning will be the same, the players have to follow the plan(s) set by the manager. The big difference with Pearson was that while there were plans, the players were also encouraged to think for themselves. So perhaps in the latter stages v Norwich, instead of all out attack the players might have stayed tighter at the back, by doing so, encouraging Norwich to come at us and hit them on the break for the winner.

There are many ways to win a football match but is throwing all ten outfield players up to their penalty area is possibly not one of them.

Having said that we've been done at home in the last minute at least twice. Norwich and Stoke while NP was here. We are perhaps, just unable to see games out especially at home.

[steveybadger]

All tactics aside it seems to me that the franchise’s fall from grace last season wasn’t an uncommon scenario, in that teams who lose in the play offs often have a lag at the start of the next season. Now you can argue about how long it should happen for and whether the manager takes some blame,  but the point is it does happen. I guess it’s part the difficulty of getting yourself to ‘go again’, plus sometimes players are sold off if promotion doesn’t happen so the team weakens.

And I acknowledge that yes it isn’t guaranteed and there are plenty of clubs who still do well the following season.

[W-S-M Seagull]

9 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

You're wasting your time if you are waiting for "fairness" from him, he has been in the ABP group from day one and I doubt there is an appointment we could have made that would have satisfied him.

If you would have read my posts then you'd have seen I've had concerns that Manning wasn't the right fit due to his style being different to what we have been playing and his style isn't suited to the players we've got. 

I'd have been on-board with a head coach who enhanced the style we were playing. 

But your bizarre agenda can't see that's what my concerns centre around. If you think Manning is the right guy, fair play to you. Just don't make personal posts about me because I share a different FOOTBALLING opinion. 

Wtf is ABP? 

Edited December 7, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull

[Silvio Dante]

Have a read of this. Foxpunter mentioned he thought Manning was a “Lead Blast” in his post and has now posted this re Emery….
 

 

[Antman]

"He now walks into one of the best academies at the level where a clear pathway to the first team is already established."

 

good to know that this is the perception of our academy, it will surely help attract talent, but....

The academy is only as good as the administration and coaching, and the latest re shuffle has altered all that internally again. do we have faith in the Lansdowns to continue to manage accordingly?

[Silvio Dante]

15 minutes ago, Antman said:

"He now walks into one of the best academies at the level where a clear pathway to the first team is already established."

 

good to know that this is the perception of our academy, it will surely help attract talent, but....

The academy is only as good as the administration and coaching, and the latest re shuffle has altered all that internally again. do we have faith in the Lansdowns to continue to manage accordingly?

One of the current oddities about Manning to date is that notwithstanding his reputation AFAIK he’s not brought through any academy players to the first team at either MK Dons or Oxford.
 

Noting that a “pathway” relies on either ability (the academy players are good enough) or necessity (we have nobody else), if that doesn’t change here then I think it’s a bigger threat to the academy than the broader restructure - the academy does the right thing currently and there is no reason to change that. But its success relies both on a good youth system and a manager with the courage to use it - even if that means you “trial” players in the first team that might be ready.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I would say that so far depending on how we split it we haven't started the first half or the second half well in any matches.

If we split it to first v second half ie 45 v 45 then yeah there is a notable difference.

Our best data seems to be so far in terms of performance numbers if not necessarily goals the period from 21 mins to the end 1st half..and 66 to the end 2nd half.