Coaches speak

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

So in other words, he can't win, as some will find fault and moan what ever he does

Of course he can win.  It’s called knowing your audience….one of the first things you’re taught in terms of communicating better.

If he starts talking about Zone 14 and Rest Defence in his press interviews (where the audience is both media and fans), he’s gonna lose people.

Thats not good communication.  Use that with the players and staff.

When I’m talking to my business users about IT solutions I don’t use terminology like APIs and Microservices.

Wasn’t that a justified critique by Spudski? Feels like you are rather keen to jump to LM’s defence.

[Phileas Fogg]

Lots of it is about delivery. Lee Johnson had a few similarities in his use of vocab, but I usually listened to his interviews.

I can already tell pretty early into his tenure that I am just not that interested in Manning’s. I just don’t find them very interesting to listen to. 

Being a great interviewee isn't as important as winning games, but it’s little areas like that where Manning will be able to win the support over.

I think Pearson’s communication style and candidness got him lots of support (and patience) from the fanbase.

Actually if you use a fairly broad stroke approach to it - managers here who spoke plainly (Gary Johnson, Cotterill, Pearson (and to a certain extent Holden)) were pretty well liked by the fanbase.

Managers without charisma and/or use plenty of jargon (SO’D, McInnes, Manning) found it much harder to form a relationship with the support.

The outlier is Lee Johnson who sort of crosses into both types - he obviously used lots of jargon, but is pretty charismatic. However we all know how decisive his tenure was. 

The interviewers have to work a bit harder with Manning, the questions are usually horrendous. 

[bcfc01]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Of course he can win.  It’s called knowing your audience….one of the first things you’re taught in terms of communicating better.

If he starts talking about Zone 14 and Rest Defence in his press interviews (where the audience is both media and fans), he’s gonna lose people.

Thats not good communication.  Use that with the players and staff.

When I’m talking to my business users about IT solutions I don’t use terminology like APIs and Microservices.

Wasn’t that a justified critique by Spudski? Feels like you are rather keen to jump to LM’s defence.

You said Solutions 

 

[Sheltons Army]

8 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Lots of it is about delivery. Lee Johnson had a few similarities in his use of vocab, but I usually listened to his interviews.

I can already tell pretty early into his tenure that I am just not that interested in Manning’s. I just don’t find them very interesting to listen to. 

Being a great interviewee isn't as important as winning games, but it’s little areas like that where Manning will be able to win the support over.

I think Pearson’s communication style and candidness got him lots of support (and patience) from the fanbase.

Actually if you use a fairly broad stroke approach to it - managers here who spoke plainly (Gary Johnson, Cotterill, Pearson (and to a certain extent Holden)) were pretty well liked by the fanbase.

Managers without charisma and/or use plenty of jargon (SO’D, McInnes, Manning) found it much harder to form a relationship with the support.

The outlier is Lee Johnson who sort of crosses into both types - he obviously used lots of jargon, but is pretty charismatic. However we all know how decisive his tenure was. 

The interviewers have to work a bit harder with Manning, the questions are usually horrendous. 

Some interesting observations there and very true
I would think a common theme at most clubs

 

The alternative approach as a head coach is to go full Joe Jordan , where no one can actually understand what  you are saying ! (No one cared though !) 

 

It is a bonus if the head man is interesting and charismatic in media work but ultimately the million dollar , and absolutely important , question is how the players buy in to head man - the game and players have changed so much I’m not sure I could even guess

Again , not an issue with Joe as none of the players could understand him either !

Edited December 11, 2023 by Sheltons Army

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Lots of it is about delivery. Lee Johnson had a few similarities in his use of vocab, but I usually listened to his interviews.

I can already tell pretty early into his tenure that I am just not that interested in Manning’s. I just don’t find them very interesting to listen to. 

Being a great interviewee isn't as important as winning games, but it’s little areas like that where Manning will be able to win the support over.

I think Pearson’s communication style and candidness got him lots of support (and patience) from the fanbase.

Actually if you use a fairly broad stroke approach to it - managers here who spoke plainly (Gary Johnson, Cotterill, Pearson (and to a certain extent Holden)) were pretty well liked by the fanbase.

Managers without charisma and/or use plenty of jargon (SO’D, McInnes, Manning) found it much harder to form a relationship with the support.

The outlier is Lee Johnson who sort of crosses into both types - he obviously used lots of jargon, but is pretty charismatic. However we all know how decisive his tenure was. 

The interviewers have to work a bit harder with Manning, the questions are usually horrendous. 

I agree with that 100%.

Although I was in a minority as I liked SoDs explanations, and wasn't fond of Cotterills... however the majority were. 

Sometimes less is more...no waffle. Slow down. It feels like a Gatling gun of words with Manning. 

I enjoyed the way Pearson spoke. Calm, collected. Took time to digest and think.  

[sh1t_ref_again]

30 minutes ago, spudski said:

No...not really. 

However...when things aren't going well, this type of thing is used against you. 

 

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Of course he can win.  It’s called knowing your audience….one of the first things you’re taught in terms of communicating better.

If he starts talking about Zone 14 and Rest Defence in his press interviews (where the audience is both media and fans), he’s gonna lose people.

Thats not good communication.  Use that with the players and staff.

When I’m talking to my business users about IT solutions I don’t use terminology like APIs and Microservices.

Wasn’t that a justified critique by Spudski? Feels like you are rather keen to jump to LM’s defence.

To me the comment made by spudski

but it would be better if when talking to the public, via the media, that he spoke in layman's terms. 

It's easy to understand, however, when things aren't going well, it can be used against you

Seems to suggest you should talk in laymens terms as no likes coach speak, but will be used against you when things are not going well, hence my can't win statement. I was not trying to defend LM, as actually I prefers NP's plain English approach. But I do find that it does not matter who says something, be it Nige, JL or LM, someone can find something wrong with it.

[bcfc01]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

I agree with that 100%.

Although I was in a minority as I liked SoDs explanations, and wasn't fond of Cotterills... however the majority were. 

Sometimes less is more...no waffle. Slow down. It feels like a Gatling gun of words with Manning. 

I enjoyed the way Pearson spoke. Calm, collected. Took time to digest and think.  

TBF, it took Pearson a long time to get to that point.

He was a bit spikey in his younger managerial days.

[2015]

Manning is like an AI version of modern day football coaches. Bores the crap out of me I can't lie and I don't listen to any of his interviews.

I do worry whether he is very good at man management which NP was imo excellent at.

[Sheltons Army]

7 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Manning is like an AI version of modern day football coaches. Bores the crap out of me I can't lie and I don't listen to any of his interviews.

I do worry whether he is very good at man management which NP was imo excellent at.

Pearson had a deep interest , and belief , in psychology , and was IMHO probably, along with his honesty ,  his strongest cards , and a vital ingredient.

I don’t know exactly how it worked with coaches , and CF , JE seemed really good guys , and maybe excellent on the grass coaches,  but a perfect combination would be if NP could find a really top coach / tactician to work his magic on the grass , and run with said coaches plans , whilst he steered the ship

Edited December 11, 2023 by Sheltons Army

[Red Ferret]

Liam Manning is an ai-generated chatbot 

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

 

To me the comment made by spudski

but it would be better if when talking to the public, via the media, that he spoke in layman's terms. 

It's easy to understand, however, when things aren't going well, it can be used against you

Seems to suggest you should talk in laymens terms as no likes coach speak, but will be used against you when things are not going well, hence my can't win statement. I was not trying to defend LM, as actually I prefers NP's plain English approach. But I do find that it does not matter who says something, be it Nige, JL or LM, someone can find something wrong with it.

Yeah. Got you.

For me, I think using coach lingo when results aren’t good, to be more likely to used against you, than layman’s terms.  I might be selective in my memory, but I don’t recall managers getting too much stick for using layman’s terms.

[lenred]

45 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

TBF, it took Pearson a long time to get to that point.

He was a bit spikey in his younger managerial days.

Tbf he’s remained pretty spiky throughout but at least there is clarity in what he says.  And just as importantly for me, an authority.
 

Not going to debate Mannings style yet as again it’s too early in his tenure to judge but what I will say is that I’m not impressed with the sly digs so far - whatever ‘coachese’ he chooses to use.   Smacks of desperation and lack of authority and accountability.   

[James54De]

Surely this is where Dave Barton should come in, work with Manning on being able to effectively convey his desired message. It is how it works in every other industry. 

[Curr Avon]

5 hours ago, TedsHeadIs Red said:

I bet LJ wishes he had been first to come up with ‘smash the nicety out of it’
Priceless. 

I love the full Smashy and Nice(t)y, not 'alf!!

Edited December 11, 2023 by Curr Avon

[W-S-M Seagull]

29 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah. Got you.

For me, I think using coach lingo when results aren’t good, to be more likely to used against you, than layman’s terms.  I might be selective in my memory, but I don’t recall managers getting too much stick for using layman’s terms.

I went back and watched interviews from when Oxford and MK lost. By and large it was pretty much always "we played well" 

Same thing here really. I don't really like it from managers that focus on the positives rather than the result. I like to see managers that are angry about the result. Manning doesn't really ever show any emotions. 

I think he's very much focussed on the processes rather than the outcomes and to him we've done the processes well but just not got the result. 

I was quite happy to point out that we played well last season in games against the likes of Sheff Utd so it appears I'm holding NP and different standards and that's correct, I am. We were on a journey with NP which most of us had patience for. Due to whats been said, I have no patience for another journey. 

I don't actually think we have played well under LM. Others might and thats fair enough. There has been patches of good play but by and large to me it's been dull. I think we can all agree that we haven't come anywhere near having a 'complete' performance. 

I very much align to the duck test theory. I don't like a manager trying to convince me that I've seen something different to what I've seen. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

8 minutes ago, James54De said:

Surely this is where Dave Barton should come in, work with Manning on being able to effectively convey his desired message. It is how it works in every other industry. 

Unfortunately Barton is partly to blame for this. 

His questioning is along the lines of "well we played really well today, dominated and controlled the game, are you happy with what you saw?" 

[Bazooka Joe]

20 hours ago, spudski said:

'Behaviors'...I bloody loath that coaching terminology. Manning uses it a lot. 

With Christmas approaching, hopefully we'll soon see the players' best behaviours.

Might even be a Claus (sic) in their contract.

If we fail to start picking up a decent points tally pretty soon, Manning won't be getting a season of goodwill from the fans.

[stortfordred]

21 hours ago, spudski said:

Behaviors'...I bloody loath that coaching terminology. Manning uses it a lot.

What about ‘final actions’?

 Same coaching manual?

If their behaviours and final actions aren’t not reinforcing what the group don’t know, they’ll be back to square one. 

[Davefevs]

50 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Unfortunately Barton is partly to blame for this. 

His questioning is along the lines of "well we played really well today, dominated and controlled the game, are you happy with what you saw?" 

Yes, good point. If Ed, Rich, Gregor or James asked a question like that, Nige’s response would be something like - “well that’s your opinion, that’s your job” and then tell them what he thought, rather than blindly agree.

In fairness to LM I’ve seen him do similar in last weeks press conference.  One around US Sports from James P and another from Latham afterwards. I think he’s just isn’t man. But Barton’s questions are same old same old. 

[bcfc01]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, good point. If Ed, Rich, Gregor or James asked a question like that, Nige’s response would be something like - “well that’s your opinion, that’s your job” and then tell them what he thought, rather than blindly agree.

In fairness to LM I’ve seen him do similar in last weeks press conference.  One around US Sports from James P and another from Latham afterwards. I think he’s just isn’t man. But Barton’s questions are same old same old. 

He has an annoying habit of answering the question he's about to ask, trying to put words into LMs mouth (and NP before him). Its just the internal PR machine at work I suppose.

I do miss 20man in terms of his questioning and follow ups.

I'm sure Piercy has his finger on the pulse and will ask some questions which will address some of the issues raised on here when the opportunity arises.

 

[chinapig]

8 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

He has an annoying habit of answering the question he's about to ask, trying to put words into LMs mouth (and NP before him). Its just the internal PR machine at work I suppose.

I do miss 20man in terms of his questioning and follow ups.

I'm sure Piercy has his finger on the pulse and will ask some questions which will address some of the issues raised on here when the opportunity arises.

 

Interviewing is a skill that can be learned but some of the key points are:

*Don't ask closed questions.

*Don't ask multiple questions.

*Don't ask leading questions.

*Listen to the reply and ask a follow up question.

Many if not most interviews break those rules. Interviewers tend to have a written list of questions that they plough through regardless of what the interviewee has to say.

I wonder how many interviewers have had any training at all?

 

[Ivorguy]

I am just concerned that his speech patterns, unintelligible to many of us, may be equally unintelligible to the players and coaches.  Must be a seismic shock for them after Nige.

Of course if players make sense of it and results follow, all we fans need to do is ignore LM’s press interviews.  But until we string together four or five wins then I shall remain sceptical.

[bcfc01]

14 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

I am just concerned that his speech patterns, unintelligible to many of us, may be equally unintelligible to the players and coaches.  Must be a seismic shock for them after Nige.

Of course if players make sense of it and results follow, all we fans need to do is ignore LM’s press interviews.  But until we string together four or five wins then I shall remain sceptical.

I think the players are fine after listening to Naismith and Conway.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/bristol-city-star-learns-curb-8967557

[lenred]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

Interviewing is a skill that can be learned but some of the key points are:

*Don't ask closed questions.

*Don't ask multiple questions.

*Don't ask leading questions.

*Listen to the reply and ask a follow up question.

Many if not most interviews break those rules. Interviewers tend to have a written list of questions that they plough through regardless of what the interviewee has to say.

I wonder how many interviewers have had any training at all?

 

Shouldn’t even need training for someone whose profession it is, at that level you would hope that they would be a natural.   And a lot of it truly is common sense!  But the bloke who does our interviews is truly truly awful.  It’s like the whole thing is scripted every time.  

[Cowshed]

28 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

I am just concerned that his speech patterns, unintelligible to many of us, may be equally unintelligible to the players and coaches.  Must be a seismic shock for them after Nige.

Of course if players make sense of it and results follow, all we fans need to do is ignore LM’s press interviews.  But until we string together four or five wins then I shall remain sceptical.

Very very doubtful.

Modern players grow up with football speech, and how Liam Manning speaks will be very familiar, players from academies up are imbibed in footballs own communication. 

 

 

[cidered abroad]

I have no idea whether his way of informing us is too technical or not for those outside of the dressing room.

What I think is much more relevant to whether Manning will be a successful Head Coach or not as his previous very limited experience as HC or Manager.

The nearest other City manager to him and his experience of being the boss, was Alan Dicks. Young, picked up much of his experience from Jimmy Hill and he struggled to keep us up for four to five seasons with a pittance spent on incoming transfers, before coming good with the team he had built.

Can we wait for Manning that long? An owner who is clearly no longer willing to spend his billions on anything but promising Third and Fourth Division younger players.

Edited December 11, 2023 by cidered abroad

[Rocking Red Cyril]

11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Of course he can win.  It’s called knowing your audience….one of the first things you’re taught in terms of communicating better.

If he starts talking about Zone 14 and Rest Defence in his press interviews (where the audience is both media and fans), he’s gonna lose people.

Thats not good communication.  Use that with the players and staff.

When I’m talking to my business users about IT solutions I don’t use terminology like APIs and Microservices.

Wasn’t that a justified critique by Spudski? Feels like you are rather keen to jump to LM’s defence.

As long as he does not return to the players as rock stars. I cool with most other terminology.