Dean Holden - Coaches Voice

[Carey 6]

I was coaching at Bristol City at that time, where it was very much a culture of what the gaffer says goes. A culture of being dictated to. But along with my experience of working at Walsall with Dean Smith – who had a different approach – I decided I wanted to encourage others to show leadership. Not because it looks good, but because I genuinely believe in it.

After I took over as Bristol City manager, we won 11 of the first 17 games in the 2020/21 Championship season. Unfortunately, we ended up having 17 players with injury problems. I’ve never seen it before, and don’t think I will again. 

Earlier that year, the players had stopped overnight because of the pandemic. We came back, had a couple of weeks to prepare for the rest of the season, then there was a three-week break before the next pre-season. Later, we had all these tendon issues. Injuries where hamstrings were being ripped off the bone in a really innocuous sprint.

I said: “Let’s look into this, because we don't want it to continue.” But there was a lot of off-the-field politics going on at the time. You want people in the building who say: “I didn’t spot that, nice one.” No agenda, no ‘stay in your lane’. That’s how I am.

It was my job to raise concerns to the people above me. But it was at a time when we had lost five games on the spin, so my position was weak. I don’t regret doing it, because senior players were coming to me and raising their concerns. Now, I would handle it differently in terms of how I approach going to the owner of the football club. Although the owners deserve to know what is going on inside the club, it is about picking battles at the right time.

(Apologies if this has already been posted, I did have a quick look and couldn’t see anything regarding it)

[Son of Fred]

Interesting & slightly unnerving!!

[frenchred]

Absolutely no surprises at all

The bloke was thrown under a bus by the snakes

[Northern Red]

Interesting read. Obviously doesn't name names, but what he's implied there really doesn't paint certain people in a good light.

[bearded_red]

Shambolic football club.

[CityReds]

So is he saying he raised it with the board and they said stay out of it.

Surely the first port of call is the medical team and you then come up with a plan. No boss will appreciate a conversation highlighting a problem without any thought into a solution to sort it?

[Carey 6]

Was it Andy Rolls who was head of the medical team at the time? Believe he left with Ashton but it could’ve been before. 

Must’ve also been the time we had our ‘loan physio’ as well when Pearson first arrived.

2 minutes ago, CityReds said:

So is he saying he raised it with the board and they said stay out of it.

Surely the first port of call is the medical team and you then come up with a plan. No boss will appreciate a conversation highlighting a problem without any thought into a solution to sort it?

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Carey 6

[Silvio Dante]

To be fair, if he raised concerns to Jon Lansdown I can’t think of anyone more qualified to comment on medical matters and as such I’m satisfied.

[marmite]

20 minutes ago, bearded_red said:

Shambolic football club.

Then and now.

[BCFC Rich]

I could be wrong, but isn't the "hamstring ripped off the bone" Pisano's injury and predating Holden as head coach? I think things are obviously pretty dysfunctional up top, but it is important to remember Holden is selling himself in this interview. The quote in the photo hardly matches the football we saw under him. 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, frenchred said:

Absolutely no surprises at all

The bloke was thrown under a bus by the snakes

How do snakes throw anything without arms ? 
 

[exAtyeoMax]

10 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

How do snakes throw anything without arms ? 
 

Coil and flip, like a lasso

 

[petehinton]

There was a very big blow out at the ground after he was sacked apparently, something to do with Holden wanting to be the one to tell the players & his family and them not find out via the media the next day (so could we wait until the morning to announce it), but MA refused (dunno on what grounds).  
 

Also heard at that time when Chris Brunt got his injury (remember, Ashton gave it the green light for him to drive 4 hours to training and back every day at his ripe old age relative wise to the point he was in his career), that it was recommend by the club to him (dunno if Rolls) that he should have surgery on to allow him to play for the club quicker, rather than straight rest & rehab it. 
 

Serious surgery on a bad calf injury…at 35….******* worrying to have someone genuinely recommend that. God knows the implications it could’ve had on him in later year.  Sort of sums the state of the club at at that time. 

The club had become a crèche under his management though, let’s be honest. All well and good letting others step up, but you need to be accountable ultimately and you can’t just tell people to take on a leadership role if they aren’t ready or don’t want to. Didn’t Kalas say he felt embarrassed and not ready at all to be captain, but felt it wasn’t something he could say no to because of the optics that would have?

[GrahamC]

58 minutes ago, petehinton said:

There was a very big blow out at the ground after he was sacked apparently, something to do with Holden wanting to be the one to tell the players & his family and them not find out via the media the next day (so could we wait until the morning to announce it), but MA refused (dunno on what grounds).  
 

Also heard at that time when Chris Brunt got his injury (remember, Ashton gave it the green light for him to drive 4 hours to training and back every day at his ripe old age relative wise to the point he was in his career), that it was recommend by the club to him (dunno if Rolls) that he should have surgery on to allow him to play for the club quicker, rather than straight rest & rehab it. 
 

Serious surgery on a bad calf injury…at 35….******* worrying to have someone genuinely recommend that. God knows the implications it could’ve had on him in later year.  Sort of sums the state of the club at at that time. 

The club had become a crèche under his management though, let’s be honest. All well and good letting others step up, but you need to be accountable ultimately and you can’t just tell people to take on a leadership role if they aren’t ready or don’t want to. Didn’t Kalas say he felt embarrassed and not ready at all to be captain, but felt it wasn’t something he could say no to because of the optics that would have?

Let’s be honest Holden was & is a nice bloke, but it was an absolute shambles.

Joe Williams injured before he kicked a ball & then ludicrously asked by Holden to start back to back games after 6 months out (the second a cup tie) & of course immediately ruled out for the season.

Signing Mawson who had a terrible availability record & Brunt whose legs had gone.

Rumour was he only wanted one assistant but had both Simpson & Downing foisted on him by Ashton.

There is a Mark Ashton thread elsewhere on OTIB at present, this is definitely the other side of the coin.

He mentions the injuries, I remember the likes of Pring & Adelakun being part of a mass recall of loan players in January because despite a squad of about 28 we didn’t have enough experience.

Within a fortnight several of them were ruled out for the season too, pretty sure Pring was so within 2 days of coming back.

A total shambles that Pearson sorted out & look at the thanks he got.

Edited December 11, 2023 by GrahamC

[GrahamC]

 

3 hours ago, Carey 6 said:

After I took over as Bristol City manager, we won 11 of the first 17 games in the 2020/21 Championship season. Unfortunately, we ended up having 17 players with injury problems. I’ve never seen it before, and don’t think I will again. 

 

Opinions are of course opinions, but you cannot alter facts.

Holden didn’t win 11 of his first 17 that season. it was 11 of his first 20, & that total included beating the likes of lower league Exeter & Northampton in the cup.

His 11th league win that season came in his 23rd league game & he only ever won one more, Huddersfield at home when Famara scored both & we were completely outplayed.

By then in hindsight the wheels were off,  as we lost the next 6 & he was out.

Edited December 11, 2023 by GrahamC

[Silvio Dante]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

 

Opinions are of course opinions, but you cannot alter facts.

Holden didn’t win 11 of his first 17 that season. it was 11 of his first 20, & that total included beating the likes of lower league Exeter & Northampton in the cup.

His 11th league win that season came in his 23rd league game & he only ever won one more, Huddersfield at home when Famara scored both & we were completely outplayed.

By then in hindsight the wheels were off,  as we lost the next 6 & he was out.

I’ve never been as sure of a relegation as I was under Holden that season, and it came to a head in the Huddersfield game. How we won that game still bemuses me as we were absolutely battered, and it was that game that made up my mind he had to go ironically as it was a win. But the die was cast a long time prior to that - just off the top of my head in addition to the factors you mention that start of season run was luck in the extreme. We were outplayed most games - from sneaking the 2-1 over Cov game one to an unbelievable performance from Bentley at Forest to a one minute performance at Cardiff that we miraculously won. We were getting wins we had no right to, and it was no shock when we regressed to the results the performances merited.

Wonderful Human. But as those stats prove, shit liar and more importantly, a bloody abysmal manager.

[Mr Popodopolous]

If we're talking League only, Holden won 9 out of the first 17. I'm wondering if he is somehow trying to include his stint as caretaker st the end if 2019-20, not checked exactly how many.

There was some luck in some games, granted. We perhaps overshot down the other side, once a slump started he couldn't halt it, the injuries were legion, the morale was rock bottom.

The Huddersfield game was strange we sprung ahead, 2 up in 26 minutes then we just stopped and went pure bunker.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[2015]

Those months from November 2020 - Feb 2021 Were among the worst performances i've ever seen from City sides. Somehow we won the first four games due to luck and Bentley being on fire.

The fact Bentley got player of the season that season says a lot in itself. We could barely get out the opposition half most games, and had a spell of 1 shot on target in 5 matches at one point. 

We were going down.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The injury list, those grim days.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/bristol-citys-full-list-injuries-4983856#amp-readmore-target

Sometime in early to mid February 2021, God knows what it was like by May!

[Supersonic Robin]

People often forget how bad we were under Holden.

We ended that season with the worst xG for in the league, the worst xG against in the league, and a new Championship record for least shots in a season. For much of the campaign we genuinely weren't competitive. We struggled to generate a shot on target or win a corner in many matches. I even recall a game vs Barnsley where we generated about 0.02 xG in the game (yes, that's zero point zero!). We were comfortably one of the worst teams in the league, and I even think there's an argument to say that Bristol City side was one of the poorer teams in Championship history. To top it off, we ended the season with opposition players publicly stating that "Bristol City's players didn't even seem to be trying".

It really was the individual excellence of Kalas and Bentley that saved us that season, as well as a decent amount of luck.

IMHO, it was so important to remember all this when evaluating the job Pearson did. It's also why I found it utterly comical whenever people suggested that Pearson hadn't improved us at all.

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, BCFC Rich said:

I could be wrong, but isn't the "hamstring ripped off the bone" Pisano's injury and predating Holden as head coach? I think things are obviously pretty dysfunctional up top, but it is important to remember Holden is selling himself in this interview. The quote in the photo hardly matches the football we saw under him. 

Pisano was the first time I’d heard of that….and yes that was under Steve “Wiggy” Allen.  But the numerous hamstrings / quads / abductor were under Holden - Martin, Baker, O’Dowda, Paterson, Brunt, Walsh, Williams, Dasilva, Sessegnon, Rowe, etc.  notwithstanding the knee injuries to a Weimann and Mawson.  Thankfully we had a huge squad left over from LJ to absorb some of it.

Paddy Orme, who has just left the club, admitted they (the medical team, Rolls headed up) got it wrong on a podcast.  A fascinating listen.

To maintain my consistency I’m sure Rolls did what he thought was best, covid end of season, quick turnaround into the next season was unique.  I remember listening to the Brentford medical person on a podcast and he said they did exactly the same pre-season for fear of doing something that hadn’t been tried and tested, and were willing to accept a slow start to the season, hoping to catch up as the season went on and became more congested.

[Club and Country]

Remember the Pring injury... from what I was told/remember he had played a good amount of games for Pompey and then we recalled him and effectively put him through a mini pre season = injured almost instantly on his return 

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Club and Country said:

Remember the Pring injury... from what I was told/remember he had played a good amount of games for Pompey and then we recalled him and effectively put him through a mini pre season = injured almost instantly on his return 

Crikes, I missed Pring off my list.

[sh1t_ref_again]

7 hours ago, Carey 6 said:

It was my job to raise concerns to the people above me. But it was at a time when we had lost five games on the spin, so my position was weak. I don’t regret doing it, because senior players were coming to me and raising their concerns. Now, I would handle it differently in terms of how I approach going to the owner of the football club. Although the owners deserve to know what is going on inside the club, it is about picking battles at the right time.

That reads to me as he went over Mark Ashtons head to SL, but MA was able to bat it away and then get rid of him as he was in a weak position due to results.

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

That reads to me as he went over Mark Ashtons head to SL, but MA was able to bat it away and then get rid of him as he was in a weak position due to results.

Certainly reads that way.

And of course (without disparaging Rolls - see my comments above) it was Ashton that brought Rolls here, having had him at Watford.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If we're talking League only, Holden won 9 out of the first 17. I'm wondering if he is somehow trying to include his stint as caretaker st the end if 2019-20, not checked exactly how many.

 

That doesn’t work either.

He won his first two but none of the rest of the five games that season (DLD).

Still find his appointment as head coach truly laughable, he won 2 games as caretaker, none of his last three & yet after a farcical process where we appeared to have absolutely no plan whatsoever he was appointed after a “rigorous” 6 week search to apparently find the previous bloke’s assistant.

Literally no one else at Championship level would have ever appointed him.

JL strikes again.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

That doesn’t work either.

He won his first two but none of the rest of the five games that season (DLD).

Still find his appointment as head coach truly laughable, he won 2 games as caretaker, none of his last three & yet after a farcical process where we appeared to have absolutely no plan whatsoever he was appointed after a “rigorous” 6 week search to apparently find the previous bloke’s assistant.

Literally no one else at Championship level would have ever appointed him.

JL strikes again.

Yeah he has embellished or messed that bit up there. 9/17 vs 11/17.

One rationale provided was iirc, that a season of austerity, no big spending planned due to uncertainty. Hughton waiting an overhaul if accurate would have brought its own issues.

Cook was another candidate post Wigan iirc.

Oh and just checked, Gerrard of course.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[sh1t_ref_again]

5 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

after a farcical process where we appeared to have absolutely no plan whatsoever he was appointed after a “rigorous” 6 week search to apparently find the previous bloke’s assistant.

I never believe that was the case, the only sensible explanation was we were ongoing with an appointment, they then changed their mind and left us in a mess, so DA become the last minute option to recover, but they can't come out and say he was a fall back.

[Fammyfan]

DH made a great start but after a few injuries we were getting relentlessly dominated every single game.

Appreciate the difficulty with players out injured but a good manager finds ways to get some points, whereas we looked nailed on for relegation.

[2015]

1 hour ago, Supersonic Robin said:

People often forget how bad we were under Holden.

We ended that season with the worst xG for in the league, the worst xG against in the league, and a new Championship record for least shots in a season. For much of the campaign we genuinely weren't competitive. We struggled to generate a shot on target or win a corner in many matches. I even recall a game vs Barnsley where we generated about 0.02 xG in the game (yes, that's zero point zero!). We were comfortably one of the worst teams in the league, and I even think there's an argument to say that Bristol City side was one of the poorer teams in Championship history. To top it off, we ended the season with opposition players publicly stating that "Bristol City's players didn't even seem to be trying".

It really was the individual excellence of Kalas and Bentley that saved us that season, as well as a decent amount of luck.

IMHO, it was so important to remember all this when evaluating the job Pearson did. It's also why I found it utterly comical whenever people suggested that Pearson hadn't improved us at all.

Short memories football fans have because everything you state is exactly how I remember it. 

We were hopeless. Also had a lot of experienced players out of contract in the summer of 2021 who all just gave up (yes including the man they love who apparently lived in Knowle). These players were a disgrace.

It was a culmination of bad injuries, a shocking contract situation and about 4 absolutely shocking transfer windows leading up to 2020/21 that led us being absolutely awful.

Short memories indeed some of our fans have. Nigel sorted this superbly and got no thanks.