TGH

[Dr Balls]

At the price being quoted for us to make TGH permanent (supposedly £1.3M) we would really struggle to find another 22 year old midfielder with 100 Chsmpionship appearances and his quality.

If Manning chose not to go ahead with the permanent deal then you would really have to question his judgement of players. We currently have no other player who can do what he does, especially in terms of shooting outside of the box. In fact, we have been missing that since Joe  Bryan left.

[Sir Geoff]

5 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

I like TGH but the more I think about it the more I think 2m total fee is too much for him. Not convinced he is special enough to pay that. Maybe he would look better next to a more dominant figure in midfield but I just wouldn’t pay that for him. 
 

I think if you look across the leagues there are better value for money buys. I am not rushing to sign him if we have him for the season. If we are going to spend 2-3m or more I would prefer on CBs and creative/forwards.
 

For example, and he could be great, 2m might be too big a fee for McRorie if he is just going to play RB. Good chance he is an upgrade on Tanner but enough to justify costing 1.7m and more wages? We will see. 

On the other hand, Dickie for 750k and a slightly bigger wage but clearly an upgrade on any cbs we had in the building. My point is if we are going to be more frugal in the market then we need to be more patient on spending our millions. TGH might be our best option for midfield come the summer time. If so, then sign him up. However I think it is worth being patient in this case. If it was another 300k to sign him then different story but as it stands I’d leave it for now.  

We've already spent 700k to loan him, so only an extra 1million to keep him.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

At the price being quoted for us to make TGH permanent (supposedly £1.3M) we would really struggle to find another 22 year old midfielder with 100 Chsmpionship appearances and his quality.

If Manning chose not to go ahead with the permanent deal then you would really have to question his judgement of players. We currently have no other player who can do what he does, especially in terms of shooting outside of the box. In fact, we have been missing that since Joe  Bryan left.

Tend to agree…think we’d need to see who was lined up instead first of all.

I like TGH…at 22, he’s a long-termer.  If LM is the top “on the grass” coach we are led to believe, he should improve him too, he’s not out of his development yet either.

[Shauntaylor85]

Has to start each game. Matty James and Weimann will need to go in the summer, amazing really as up until end of last season you would have them in, but they both offer very little now. 

[1960maaan]

3 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

I like TGH but the more I think about it the more I think 2m total fee is too much for him.

From what I read there was a loan fee which would be taken off of the £2M . I think it said we would basically paying £1.3m in the summer. Apparently everything is in place and we have first refusal. Just my oppinion but that seems a good fee for someone who has done well enough and is a good age to progress.

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Said similar somewhere else, if we are gonna play Knight so advanced, why not play a true forward, and play Jase in midfield.

I've been banging on about this for several games. I want Knight more involved in MF so he can affect the game more, yesterday he spent a lot of time pressing .
I'd like to see Mehmeti as that one off of the main striker , thought it looked promising at Cardiff.

[tin]

TGH is the midfielder with the best technique in the squad currently, capable of taking decent set pieces and happy to shoot from outside the box. At 22, he should have growth in him too.

That said, I don’t see the rush to sign him now if everything is already agreed to make it a perm in June. Assess it then and see where we are IMO, but give him opportunities in centre mid until that time (unless we sign better this month). 

[JoeAman08]

13 minutes ago, hinsleburg said:

I get the feeling we won't proceed with this, think he was Manning's first choice for a number of weeks but more due to necessity than anything else. Whilst it wasn't an impressive cameo yesterday for me he's got a bit of everything, can run, pick a pass, shoot but also stick a foot in and tackle.

Can see him evolving his game and being a long term James replacement but I also wonder if he's got a bit more to offer going forwards and if that'll be a bit of a waste....

One thing I'd love to see us try and yesterday was the game to do it is dropping Knight a little deeper to play in the midfield next to TGH. Means you can have Wells/Weimann/Cornick playing centrally next to Conway and actually give the kid some help. It's clearly been identified as an issue because if you watch us, we never have two wingers playing wide, one is always tucked in as close to Conway as possible. The problem is that leaves loads of space out wide that we then aren't able to exploit! Looks very unbalanced to me at the moment, maybe the answer will be Mcrorie bombing down the wing and filling the space but I'm not convinced that'll rectify everything.

Either way, I think TGH is class and think we need to snap him up 

I think Knight will eventually be deeper once we find an answer to who can press similar to Knight but add the creativity. Maybe Murphy will get a chance. I certainly don’t think we are special enough for him to not get a look in. 

[JoeAman08]

3 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

We've already spent 700k to loan him, so only an extra 1million to keep him.

True but that is still a good portion of money for me though. I know not every transfer is the same but I look at it like we got Brownhill for compensation and TGH is nowhere close to that level. The extra 1.3m will still be an option in the summer time. I just wouldn’t feel the need to rush that signing in January. If it is still the right move in May then by all means but I’d rather Manning decide if he is the right midfielder or not for him. 

[Dr Balls]

4 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

I think Knight will eventually be deeper once we find an answer to who can press similar to Knight but add the creativity. Maybe Murphy will get a chance. I certainly don’t think we are special enough for him to not get a look in. 

Weimann got all his goals in 21/22 as the player behind a front 2 of Semenyo and Martin. I still think he would get more goals in that position than anyone else we have. The conundrum is how to fit Knight into midfield. Perhaps a 4-3-1-2 with Sykes as a RWB, Pring at LWB and a midfield 3 of Knight, TGH and either James or Williams, with a front 2 of Conway and Wells, and Weimann just behind them. That would definitely be a team “playing on the front foot”.

[JoeAman08]

5 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Weimann got all his goals in 21/22 as the player behind a front 2 of Semenyo and Martin. I still think he would get more goals in that position than anyone else we have. The conundrum is how to fit Knight into midfield. Perhaps a 4-3-1-2 with Sykes as a RWB, Pring at LWB and a midfield 3 of Knight, TGH and either James or Williams, with a front 2 of Conway and Wells, and Weimann just behind them. That would definitely be a team “playing on the front foot”.

Weimann scored those goals because Semenyo and Martin were giving the cbs fits. He is a couple steps slower since then and doesn’t have either of those two players or even close to occupy defenders. I think Weimann is done being a big contributor at this level.
 

I think we could play Conway behind Wells though as something different. The problem is you are using your only two legitimate strikers at the same time so you might worry about injuries. Conway should be fit enough and young enough to do the pressing similar to Knight but maybe make better runs into the area. I wouldn’t mind Sykes at RB but he has been our most important attacking player and no way am I moving him further back when we already struggle for goals.  

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Weimann scored those goals because Semenyo and Martin were giving the cbs fits. He is a couple steps slower since then and doesn’t have either of those two players or even close to occupy defenders. I think Weimann is done being a big contributor at this level.
 

I think we could play Conway behind Wells though as something different. The problem is you are using your only two legitimate strikers at the same time so you might worry about injuries. Conway should be fit enough and young enough to do the pressing similar to Knight but maybe make better runs into the area. I wouldn’t mind Sykes at RB but he has been our most important attacking player and no way am I moving him further back when we already struggle for goals.  

This is why it is my belief that we have 5 CFs:

Conway, Wells, Weimann, Bell and Cornick.

I think you could pretty much perm any 2 of those 5, although the natural 2 out of 3 to perm are Wells, Conway and Cornick.

The big question with going two-up-top is without the ball, and who presses the Full-Backs.  If you played a “ten”, then each CF could split the CB and FB, but need to be mindful that you don’t just end up with a different take on 3 up-top.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Wasn’t it €4.5m

I thought 5,7million € 

[italian dave]

43 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I thought he was ok, better than Hunt….but not worth the alleged fee.  I thought he covered his CBs well also.

It wasn’t huge, but it is for a RB!!

Said similar somewhere else, if we are gonna play Knight so advanced, why not play a true forward, and play Jase in midfield.

You’ve jumped from ‘wasn’t’ (past) to ‘is’ (present) - which is kind of my point! It’s easy post covid to lose sight of how silly fees were getting pre covid. I’d still accept it would have been a lot but, for example, James Bree was moving from Barnsley to Villa for €3.5m at the time. And €4m was what Benfica were reported to be asking - not necessarily what they’d have accepted!

But all conjecture…and in the past!!

To the present. Agree with your view on JK. Thing is, when we can play through the middle like we did at Watford (and he tends to play a bit deeper away from home anyway) then it works. But when we get bogged down in the middle as we (literally!) did yesterday, and start bypassing the middle anyway, then yes it felt like replacing James with Wells and moving Knight back might have made sense.

And as others have said, we know Conway and Wells works.

But in fairness it’s maybe too early to judge intent on that. Wells is only just back from a significant spell out with injury, and clearly isn’t seen as having more than 45 minutes in him yet. And it’s not like we are loaded with other options up front. So maybe that will come.. 

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, italian dave said:

You’ve jumped from ‘wasn’t’ (past) to ‘is’ (present) - which is kind of my point! It’s easy post covid to lose sight of how silly fees were getting pre covid. I’d still accept it would have been a lot but, for example, James Bree was moving from Barnsley to Villa for €3.5m at the time. And €4m was what Benfica were reported to be asking - not necessarily what they’d have accepted!

But all conjecture…and in the past!!

To the present. Agree with your view on JK. Thing is, when we can play through the middle like we did at Watford (and he tends to play a bit deeper away from home anyway) then it works. But when we get bogged down in the middle as we (literally!) did yesterday, and start bypassing the middle anyway, then yes it felt like replacing James with Wells and moving Knight back might have made sense.

And as others have said, we know Conway and Wells works.

But in fairness it’s maybe too early to judge intent on that. Wells is only just back from a significant spell out with injury, and clearly isn’t seen as having more than 45 minutes in him yet. And it’s not like we are loaded with other options up front. So maybe that will come.. 

I meant was, grammar not my strong point.  £4m was a lot for a RB who wasn’t much better than Hunt.

[italian dave]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I meant was, grammar not my strong point.  £4m was a lot for a RB who wasn’t much better than Hunt.

Oh, “a lot” I’d certainly agree on!!

And interestingly, whilst Hunt now plays his trade at some god-forsaken place in league 1, Perreira went to Serie B and is now being loaned out to Turkey. So, a bit better..but not a lot, as you say! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Pereira does have some useful Serie A experience too though. Not saying I'd want him now btw! Benfica academy is also very good fwiw.

Thought he was useful in the sense he could play wider or narrower and wasn't a traditional RB jn the sense of bombing forward but wide mostly. He's 25 now, turns 26 inna few days, could still develop a bit further in theory but probably age wise towards the upper end of that ceiling.

[GrahamC]

5 hours ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Has to start each game. Matty James and Weimann will need to go in the summer, amazing really as up until end of last season you would have them in, but they both offer very little now. 

He was poor at Birmingham & really poor when he came on yesterday so I’m not sure about that.

I certainly wouldn’t make the deal permanent this month, let’s have a full season of him to make a considered judgement.

I do think the Boro goal alone has definitely convinced a few on here, but we need to see if that was a one off.

As for James & Williams I expect those two are right at the top of our wage structure & any offer to either is highly unlikely to be an increase & with King nailed on not to be on the playing staff next season we’re looking at significant changes in that area.

 

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

He was poor at Birmingham & really poor when he came on yesterday so I’m not sure about that.

I certainly wouldn’t make the deal permanent this month, let’s have a full season of him to make a considered judgement.

I do think the Boro goal alone has definitely convinced a few on here, but we need to see if that was a one off.

As for James & Williams I expect those two are right at the top of our wage structure & any offer to either is highly unlikely to be an increase & with King nailed on not to be on the playing staff next season we’re looking at significant changes in that area.

 

I don’t think he was that bad yesterday, but didn’t hit his heights against Brum.

I think there could be an element of LM isn’t sure, and if that is the case, then he should wait.

If it were me (and it’s not) and without knowing what other options there are, I’d be signing him.

[bcfc01]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think he was that bad yesterday, but didn’t hit his heights against Brum.

I think there could be an element of LM isn’t sure, and if that is the case, then he should wait.

If it were me (and it’s not) and without knowing what other options there are, I’d be signing him.

Likewise, he was way below par against Birmingham and just didn't get into the game against Millwall with several sloppy passes. He's young so maybe a case of just hitting a wall in the last couple of games, or maybe the contract is on his mind (or lack of) at this time of the season. 

I like him and would go for it.

[1960maaan]

22 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

He was poor at Birmingham & really poor when he came on yesterday so I’m not sure about that.

I certainly wouldn’t make the deal permanent this month, let’s have a full season of him to make a considered judgement.

I do think the Boro goal alone has definitely convinced a few on here, but we need to see if that was a one off.

As for James & Williams I expect those two are right at the top of our wage structure & any offer to either is highly unlikely to be an increase & with King nailed on not to be on the playing staff next season we’re looking at significant changes in that area.

 

While he wasn't great last two games, IMO he has been good more often than not . He is 22 , plenty of time to improve and I've already seen enough to think the extra £1.3m is a good deal . Now if the budget is tight this window or LM has prioritised other positions then it makes sense to wait , as the deal is all arranged for the summer. 

 

[Ivorguy]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

This is why it is my belief that we have 5 CFs:

Conway, Wells, Weimann, Bell and Cornick.

I think you could pretty much perm any 2 of those 5, although the natural 2 out of 3 to perm are Wells, Conway and Cornick.

The big question with going two-up-top is without the ball, and who presses the Full-Backs.  If you played a “ten”, then each CF could split the CB and FB, but need to be mindful that you don’t just end up with a different take on 3 up-top.

Five but none of which score on anything like a regular basis.  Move them all on, unless Manning thinks he can improve Conway

[bcfc01]

2 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Five but none of which score on anything like a regular basis.  Move them all on, unless Manning thinks he can improve Conway

Very harsh on Conway who has a high ceiling imo.

He's young, trying to play the way LM wants him to play and struggling with it as its not to his strengths. 

If I were him, I'd not sign a contract extension and see how it develops and whats available at the end of the season as its possible that if he just can't get to grips with playing LMs way, his career may not be going in the right direction.

Very high potential, but possibly not here.

[GrahamC]

4 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Very harsh on Conway who has a high ceiling imo.

He's young, trying to play the way LM wants him to play and struggling with it as its not to his strengths. 

If I were him, I'd not sign a contract extension and see how it develops and whats available at the end of the season as its possible that if he just can't get to grips with playing LMs way, his career may not be going in the right direction.

Very high potential, but possibly not here.

I think it is harsh on 4 of them.

Wells is obviously in his latter years but we don’t half miss him when he’s (rarely) unavailable. Good squad option.

Weimann is in a similar category, I have a hunch this might be his final season with us but excellent servant.

Cornick hasn’t worked out, if we can find a solution that works for him & us I wouldn’t stand in his way.

Conway & Bell are both only 21, both have already played around 60 Championship games TC has 16 goals, Bell 7 in the league.

Both have plenty of time to improve & in the latter’s case I would have no issue keeping him as a squad option even if he doesn’t.

Conway will in my opinion play at a higher level than our current one & probably force the issue himself at some point but I wouldn’t rush to move him on.

[You Do The Dziekanowski]

If the £1.3m is correct. Surely it’s a no brainer. 
 

Even if he doesn’t get better, he’s worth more than £1.3m so there is a profit to be had there. He’s clearly got enough quality to be playing for a side in or around the play offs. 

[Dr Balls]

7 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

Weimann scored those goals because Semenyo and Martin were giving the cbs fits. He is a couple steps slower since then and doesn’t have either of those two players or even close to occupy defenders. I think Weimann is done being a big contributor at this level.
 

I think we could play Conway behind Wells though as something different. The problem is you are using your only two legitimate strikers at the same time so you might worry about injuries. Conway should be fit enough and young enough to do the pressing similar to Knight but maybe make better runs into the area. I wouldn’t mind Sykes at RB but he has been our most important attacking player and no way am I moving him further back when we already struggle for goals.  

This would be the same Weimann who scored the one-on-one against Watford? That was exactly the sort of chance he thrives on. Plus he has been struggling with a foot injury for most of the season so far. He still has a lot to offer, if played correctly. Starting him out wide doesn’t get the best out of him. Having TGH playing balls through to him would work, but then that’s the problem. All of our forwards seem to prefer through balls to run onto rather than taking it directly in front of the defender. Only Cornick seems able to take those balls and lay it off, but he can’t score!

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

Five but none of which score on anything like a regular basis.  Move them all on, unless Manning thinks he can improve Conway

If none of our forwards are scoring and then again not missing loads of chances, kind of makes you think the problem is elsewhere. We haven't made lots of chances for strikers for some time it doesn't matter who is up front. 
 

[JoeAman08]

2 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

This would be the same Weimann who scored the one-on-one against Watford? That was exactly the sort of chance he thrives on. Plus he has been struggling with a foot injury for most of the season so far. He still has a lot to offer, if played correctly. Starting him out wide doesn’t get the best out of him. Having TGH playing balls through to him would work, but then that’s the problem. All of our forwards seem to prefer through balls to run onto rather than taking it directly in front of the defender. Only Cornick seems able to take those balls and lay it off, but he can’t score!

It was his only goal this season and more worryingly maybe the only real chance he has had.  Against a side going all out for a goal. Also, from the wide position. I’d expect most of our forwards to bury that chance.

His finishing isn’t in question much like it wasn’t for Martin. However, the legs are gone. Weimann has lost a step or two and I am not even sure he could do the pressing needed anymore. I haven’t been a fan of his for a long time. He takes so many bad touches. He kills attacks by passing behind players already on the move. Imo he killed the shape on New Years by constantly drifting inside. Yet Tanner gets the stick for passing backwards. Granted he wouldn’t take the chance to pass forward anyway but on Monday he rarely had the option in front of him. 
 

Holding onto players like Weimann and James for performances they have had in the past is a quick way to find yourself struggling with no answers. We need better options and quickly imo. They aren’t scapegoats and can still help the squad but they need to be phased out and new options in if we want to be top 6. We’ll see if the board allow that.