Max O’Leary

[Severn Beach Pigeon]

1 hour ago, Selred said:

I think it's important to have balance.

He had a very good game yesterday, but also was slow for the goal and basically stood still. 

He has also had some poor performances for us and conceded a few goals he should of easily saved.

One swallow doesn't make a summer. In my opinion he's still below average for Championship, but more performances like y'day my opinion will change. 

This aligns closely with my views.

 

Max gets so much more leniency than other keepers with regards to what gets criticised, but a good performance from 5 years ago still gets regular mentions.

He's a reasonable keeper for the Championship, whose reactions are particularly good. There's better out there, although it would likely take up most/all of our budget to bring in better and there are other priorities. 

[View from the Dolman]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Keeper primary roles are based upon hands and feet. Coaching courses teach us two thirds of a keepers game is played with the feet. For a team attempting to play like Man Utd that 66% is increased. The signing of Onana was primarily to improve Man U ability to play  out, for Onana to join in and for a CB to join in to midfield forming a trendy box midfield and Man U to  play in 3-5-2, 3-4-3, 2-3-5 shapes etc in possession with the GK having a role in building possession.  

These tactics have proved problematic for two Keepers of International class. A reasonable observer could think the keeper playing as a auxiliary CB, and bounce passes being made wide into central midfield (Brighton like with differing verticality) are too complex for Man U's players and their keeper.   

And which bit of that addresses him failing to make what would be routine saves in the National League?

[Port Said Red]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Caught a long ball played from fifty metres away from goal and was met by a West Ham player twelve metres from goal. If Max O'leary's starting position was not extremely deep (in the six yard box) he catches, or punches that ball.

Surely his starting position is predicated on the position of the defenders, the defence was deep so he stayed back. Of he had been much further forward he would have been too close to his defenders and Bowen would have run behind all of them.

I am working on this assumption as normally his starting position is very high and he is very good at sweeping up along the edge of the box. 

[Sandhurst Red]

Akin to that of a referee, the position and role of a GK is often over scrutinised as it's easy to highlight mistakes (especially with slowed down replays and multiple angles).

Max was superb yesterday, anyone who can't see that really needs to watch more Championship level football to see how good he was v Premiership level opposition. 

This season, defensively we are more sound (the stats prove this) and Max is a significant contribution to it. He also made some glaring mistakes, but so does every GK - it's the nature of the position. 

GKs are often loved and praised due to their flamboyance or exuberance, and Max is not that type of character which is one of the reasons I feel he gets often attacked by fans for his performances. A lot of his football goes unnoticed, which is unfair, but by doing this, he provides stability to the team, which is not a bad thing.

Across the Championship division, I can perhaps think of only 2 GKs I would rather have than O'Leary and at 27 he is entering his prime. 

He needs better competition, and someone to challenge him, but I feel he's had a very good season and is getting better and better, and is clearly trusted by the defence infront of him, which is critical. 

[Port Said Red]

7 minutes ago, transfer reader said:

This aligns closely with my views.

 

Max gets so much more leniency than other keepers with regards to what gets criticised, but a good performance from 5 years ago still gets regular mentions.

He's a reasonable keeper for the Championship, whose reactions are particularly good. There's better out there, although it would likely take up most/all of our budget to bring in better and there are other priorities. 

Well luckily we haven't needed many performances like that from him, it's rare that any keeper has to make multiple saves above the ordinary.

I think his actual keeping has improved immeasurably, he looks more confident and that transmits to the defenders. As I have said before, straight from the horses mouth, the defenders like him, they know what to expect with regards to sitting or coming for a ball, which he rarely gets wrong. 

He has pulled off some extremely good saves in the last few games and his distribution has gone up a level too, which has increased his own and everyone else's confidence.

So I'll go with Shay Given's opinion as I think he has better understanding of what makes a good goalkeeper than anyone on here, including me. 

 

[REDOXO]

We are one of the meanest defenses in the division.
 

Max regularly makes great saves and looks very decent at dead balls. His kicking and passing is as decent as most in the division, yet the criticism aimed at him for nothing by some is starting to get toward Christian Robert’s, Dave Smith and Joe Burnell proportions, three players that were constantly harangued for nothing. 
 

Is OLeary the latest in a long line of targets?
 

The bloke has 100 over appearances for us in The Championship and made a couple of quite brilliant stops against a Premier League top six team yesterday. He deserves our support and admiration!

[lenred]

46 minutes ago, Rob k said:

The same with any player, there doesn’t have to be a camp where you either ‘Love’ or ‘Hate’ a player. For me, Max is not the best keeper I’ve seen, and i think we could, and will improve in that area, as I’d like to think we will do in a few others too. 

Sums it up for me.  I don’t mind him  at all - he’s perfectly fine for a mid championship team and it’s nice to have another local lad playing for us - and I prefer him to Bentley. But I think we need to improve further if we want to be consistently challenging for the stated aims of Top 6 and ultimately promotion.   That’s not hating on MOL. Just a point of view.   

[Cowshed]

19 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Surely his starting position is predicated on the position of the defenders, the defence was deep so he stayed back. Of he had been much further forward he would have been too close to his defenders and Bowen would have run behind all of them.

I am working on this assumption as normally his starting position is very high and he is very good at sweeping up along the edge of the box. 

Everything is relational to the ball. Defenders and keeper. The ball was going backwards. it was ten metres from the half way line, the defence should not drop into the box, and they were not that deep, the CB's are ten metres outside the box = They were not in a position to head the ball = O'learly steps up and he catches that ball, which travels far further than it is from the six yard box to the penalty spot .  

31 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

And which bit of that addresses him failing to make what would be routine saves in the National League?

Onana clearly does make routine saves for Ajax, Inter Milan and Man Utd. 

The point was distribution is fundamental to a keepers game. It is primary at some clubs. 

[View from the Dolman]

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Onana clearly does make routine saves for Ajax, Inter Milan and Man Utd. 

The point was distribution is fundamental to a keepers game. It is primary at some clubs. 

I never said he has failed to make a routine save in his life. You made it about distribution. However, you are so obviously the oracle and I bow to your superiority on the forum.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Roger Red Hat said:

For me, Max is a better keeper than Bentley, and has been for a long time.

If you don’t mind, I’d say Max is the better keeper for City’s defence, if that makes sense?

But in some respects that also means he is a better keeper, full stop.

Max is generally calm, decisive, sweeps pretty well.  Punches when he can’t claim.

His kicking can be a bit off, but I prefer it to “schloof” a slice up in the air Bentley, having retreated 10 yards towards his goal line.

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Ask some of our defenders which one they prefer....

Indeed.

[Cowshed]

7 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

You made it about distribution. 

You answered a post about Onanas distribution and Man Utd's build up play. 

[CityCiderEd]

Just to add to the debate re MoL/ DB. 

When we we had to defend corners or free kicks around the box I was never comfortable with Bents staying rooted to his line leaving defenders to clear from inside the 6 yard box. Max has removed the dread of what I felt with Bents and our defensive record has improved immeasurably. 

[REDOXO]

18 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Everything is relational to the ball. Defenders and keeper. The ball was going backwards. it was ten metres from the half way line, the defence should not drop into the box, and they were not that deep, the CB's are ten metres outside the box = They were not in a position to head the ball = O'learly steps up and he catches that ball, which travels far further than it is from the six yard box to the penalty spot .  

Onana clearly does make routine saves for Ajax, Inter Milan and Man Utd. 

The point was distribution is fundamental to a keepers game. It is primary at some clubs. 

Keeping goal is primary for a goal keeper. It’s kinda in the title. However I do take the point. The better you are at distribution to compliment that the more valuable you are. 

[DT The Optimist]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

I will have a pop at that one, Onana is not a clown, and neither was De Gea. Onana's abilty with his feet is high, very high, Onana is struggling with Man U's build up play and so did De Gea. It could be that its Man U's tactics, the complex build up play that is fundamentally problematic for Man Utd. 

He makes the simple look ‘spectacular’ and a friend who is a ST holder at Man Ure tells me thats the view point from the masses. I can only comment on what I  see on the box.
Point is he was 45M makes you wonder what MOL value is then.  
As for De Gea my mate would have him back asap,  and still without a club. 

[Sixtyseconds]

2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Ask some of our defenders which one they prefer....

@Zakvyner any chance?

No.

Might know an old one.

Basso or Phillips word from the ex City pro 3 Lions defenders table and sometimes under it (Danny Coles).

Twas Phillips. 

[Numero Uno]

2 hours ago, Roger Red Hat said:

I'd also add as an afterthought, If Nicky Maenpaa had been able to stay fit, I don't think Bentley would have got a look in.

Technically Maenpaa was a fantastic keeper, just couldn’t get enough pitch time out of him (a bit of a higher level Billy Mercer).

[Cowshed]

48 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Keeping goal is primary for a goal keeper. It’s kinda in the title. However I do take the point. The better you are at distribution to compliment that the more valuable you are. 

It is an interesting topic. Distribution is for a keeper in modern football a primary skill.  

Here is a basic outline of Key qualities of a keeper. This is for a club with an intent to be possession based, play a high pressing game with high defensive lines. Its from the FA and coaching at EUFA A level, and the qualities that club expect potential targets to exhibit.

Take away distribution skills .. Any keeper without those keystone skills would not be signed. 

 

Tactical

Interventions outside the box

Understanding of team shape

Technical

Catching and punching crosses

Distribution skills

Shot stopping

 

Physical

Agility

Reflexes

Strong

Psychological

Communicates

Concentration

Confident

Dominant

Mentally tough - Recovers from mistakes

 

 

 

 

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

We are one of the meanest defenses in the division.
 

Max regularly makes great saves and looks very decent at dead balls. His kicking and passing is as decent as most in the division, yet the criticism aimed at him for nothing by some is starting to get toward Christian Robert’s, Dave Smith and Joe Burnell proportions, three players that were constantly harangued for nothing. 
 

Is OLeary the latest in a long line of targets?
 

The bloke has 100 over appearances for us in The Championship and made a couple of quite brilliant stops against a Premier League top six team yesterday. He deserves our support and admiration!

Yet if you criticise the colour of Liam Manning’s shoelaces the same posters lose their shit completely, totally bizarre.

[Numero Uno]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It is an interesting topic. Distribution is for a keeper in modern football a primary skill.  

Here is a basic outline of Key qualities of a keeper. This is for a club with an intent to be possession based, play a high pressing game with high defensive lines. Its from the FA and coaching at EUFA A level, and the qualities that club expect potential targets to exhibit.

Take away distribution skills .. Any keeper without those keystone skills would not be signed. 

 

Tactical

Interventions outside the box

Understanding of team shape

Technical

Catching and punching crosses

Distribution skills

Shot stopping

 

Physical

Agility

Reflexes

Strong

Psychological

Communicates

Concentration

Confident

Dominant

Mentally tough - Recovers from mistakes

 

Almost every one of those is required for a keeper that signs for a “route 1” team. The distribution will be “different” but still required to suit the team style of play. Interventions only become irrelevant if the team defends deep. Domination depends on your defensive make-up (Frank wasn’t dominant but didn’t need to be with Flint heading everything in front of him). The rest are basics in any event.

[REDOXO]

13 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It is an interesting topic. Distribution is for a keeper in modern football a primary skill.  

Here is a basic outline of Key qualities of a keeper. This is for a club with an intent to be possession based, play a high pressing game with high defensive lines. Its from the FA and coaching at EUFA A level, and the qualities that club expect potential targets to exhibit.

Take away distribution skills .. Any keeper without those keystone skills would not be signed. 

 

Tactical

Interventions outside the box

Understanding of team shape

Technical

Catching and punching crosses

Distribution skills

Shot stopping

 

Physical

Agility

Reflexes

Strong

Psychological

Communicates

Concentration

Confident

Dominant

Mentally tough - Recovers from mistakes

 

 

 

 

Goal keepers are signed all the time by every club that don’t have that complete skill set. 
 

A can you catch

B can you stop shots

OK you have the basics of keeping goal  

The rest of it is coached to fit with the team unless goalkeepers enter the earth with a fully complete skill set. Perhaps they do. I’ve only been in goal for five a side. 

I suppose chicks do know the words of “I will survive” on day one so it could be possible!

 

Edited January 8 by REDOXO

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Goal keepers are signed all the time by every club that don’t have that complete skill set. 
 

A can you catch

B can you stop shots

OK you have the basics of keeping goal  

The rest of it is coached to fit with the team unless goalkeepers enter the earth with a fully complete skill set. Perhaps they do. I’ve only been in goal for five a side. 
 

 

The basics of being a goalkeeper require a very strong mindset.

[REDOXO]

Just now, Numero Uno said:

The basics of being a goalkeeper require a very strong mindset.

That is the truth. I often think that is something you are born with. 
 

Courage of your own convictions is a must for a keeper!

[Numero Uno]

4 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

That is the truth. I often think that is something you are born with. 
 

Courage of your own convictions is a must for a keeper!

One of the items in @Cowshed’s list around resilience after making a mistake is so key. If you had to prioritise that list it would be right at the top end. The world is full of talented goalkeepers who destroy themselves when they make a bad mistake. Not only that but add in the fact that a large number of managers are completely ******* clueless about goalkeeping (that is no joke either) and have a propensity to overly criticise despite their ignorance, which you have to manage as a goalkeeper along with your goalkeeping coach, and it’s easy for a very “talented” keeper without the mental strength to fall by the wayside.

The worst coaches are your Gary Neville types who tell anyone and everyone that listens how much they know about goalkeeping and actually know next to **** all in reality. Weapons grade arseholes!!

[The Bard]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Went for legs imho.

Williams and TGH in CM was a good choice imho.

I do wonder if it’s a “changing of the guard” / sliding doors moment for Matty James?

I thought it might also have been a out giving them the experience of the ground and occasion.  The 4 experienced players have all done that already

[Cowshed]

37 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

One of the items in @Cowshed’s list around resilience after making a mistake is so key. If you had to prioritise that list it would be right at the top end. The world is full of talented goalkeepers who destroy themselves when they make a bad mistake. Not only that but add in the fact that a large number of managers are completely ******* clueless about goalkeeping (that is no joke either) and have a propensity to overly criticise despite their ignorance, which you have to manage as a goalkeeper along with your goalkeeping coach, and it’s easy for a very “talented” keeper without the mental strength to fall by the wayside.

The worst coaches are your Gary Neville types who tell anyone and everyone that listens how much they know about goalkeeping and actually know next to **** all in reality. Weapons grade arseholes!!

You may already know this, but its simply in order of the four corned model that starts in a non alphabetical order from T for Technical and tactical, and P for physical, psychological.  The specific why is it in that order beyond its following the FA? No idea. 

58 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Goal keepers are signed all the time by every club that don’t have that complete skill set. 
 

A can you catch

B can you stop shots

OK you have the basics of keeping goal  

The rest of it is coached to fit with the team unless goalkeepers enter the earth with a fully complete skill set. Perhaps they do. I’ve only been in goal for five a side. 

I suppose chicks do know the words of “I will survive” on day one so it could be possible!

 

Goal keepers are not signed all the time if they don't possess primary skills. If a keeper does not possess the listed technical distribution skills that club will not look at the player, let alone sign them. Its a must HAVE skill, not a skill set to create. 

Academy players frequently are signed on the basis of TIPS and TAPS. The acronyms are really the same for tactical, technical, athleticism, intelligence, physical, psychological, skill etc.

If a keeper doesn't have the skills to play the ball with multiple surfaces, and possess a range of passes at a certain age many academies wont be interested in the player. 

Edited January 8 by Cowshed

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Almost every one of those is required for a keeper that signs for a “route 1” team. The distribution will be “different” but still required to suit the team style of play. Interventions only become irrelevant if the team defends deep. Domination depends on your defensive make-up (Frank wasn’t dominant but didn’t need to be with Flint heading everything in front of him). The rest are basics in any event.

Missed this post. The distribution will be significantly differing to route one. If the keeper cant sweep, they cant play in the unit in and out of possession, and the team can't play. 

If your team is pushing up high, and as good a competent pro Fielding was he didn't not possess that dominant skill set to sweep outside the box, or join in resetting possession and being an outfield option.

Confident and dominant are also psychological qualities in possession. 

[cheese]

31 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Missed this post. The distribution will be significantly differing to route one. If the keeper cant sweep, they cant play in the unit in and out of possession, and the team can't play. 

If your team is pushing up high, and as good a competent pro Fielding was he didn't not possess that dominant skill set to sweep outside the box, or join in resetting possession and being an outfield option.

Confident and dominant are also psychological qualities in possession. 

As amply demonstrated against Wolves.

[Chivs]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Went for legs imho.

Williams and TGH in CM was a good choice imho.

I do wonder if it’s a “changing of the guard” / sliding doors moment for Matty James?

I think that door has started to slide. James is getting less time now Manning is here. Likewise, for Weimann.

I was really worried when the subs were made as it took any pace out, and replaced it with ,well, not pace.

WHU started to come back into it after our subs although that might be a coincidence as they were always going to step up in the last 15 mins.

[TommyD68]

Kept us in the game with some fantastic saves! The goal certainly wasn’t his fault either, good forward play by Bowen and understandably didn’t want to bring him down and give away an early penalty. I’ve always liked Max but I think we’re really starting to see the best version of him, his reflexes are great.