Looking over our shoulder

[glynriley]

31 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

God knows what Tinnions idea of front foot football (He used to align it with ‘runners’ and pace , two thiings I don’t see as priorities in a LM player

 

But do you see us , playing , what you regard as ‘Front Foot Football’ now , or , in the future under LM ?

I don’t 

This has been increasingly pissing me off by the week. He sat there after NP was sacked and described the sort of manager they wanted, then employed a possession based manager. We’re bang in trouble with Tinnion at the top of the tree. Can’t wait for this season to end (In safety) then hopefully Manning can start afresh with a new group in the summer. Just hope he’s allowed to find his own identity without too much influence from above. 

Edited February 4 by glynriley

[Sheltons Army]

7 minutes ago, glynriley said:

This has been increasingly pissing me off by the week. He sat there after NP was sacked and described the sort of manager they wanted, then employed a possession based manager. We’re bang in trouble with Tinnion at the top of the tree. Can’t wait for this season to end (In safety) then hopefully Manning can start afresh with a new group in the summer. Just hope he’s allowed to find his own identity without too much influence from above. 

Agree , and as I’ve said before , we’ve headhunted him , identified him as our way forward and so back him and including I’d like to see him having a major influence and say in recruitment 

[Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan]

How have we got from the Watford away performance to this thread in just over a month?

Call it wetting the bed if you want but yes, on current form we can absolutely get dragged into a relegation battle and what happens in the next 4 or 5 games will go some way to seeing if that will happen. Think Weds and Rotherham are in real trouble but could’ve done without QPR winning yesterday.

 

 

[Loosey Boy]

7 minutes ago, Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan said:

How have we got from the Watford away performance to this thread in just over a month?

Call it wetting the bed if you want but yes, on current form we can absolutely get dragged into a relegation battle and what happens in the next 4 or 5 games will go some way to seeing if that will happen. Think Weds and Rotherham are in real trouble but could’ve done without QPR winning yesterday.

 

 

Next two games are really tough but then we start playing some of the teams in/around us…..we need a win quickly from a confidence perspective, more than anything.

I’m looking forward to seeing Twine and Sykes in the same team as those two should make a difference to us, creating and causing teams a lot of problems.

The team that I think could get dragged into trouble at the moment, is Swansea - next four games:-

Hull A

Leeds H

Ipswich H

Sunderland A

Edited February 4 by Loosey Boy

[Davefevs]

50 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

God knows what Tinnions idea of front foot football (He used to align it with ‘runners’ and pace , two thiings I don’t see as priorities in a LM player

 

But do you see us , playing , what you regard as ‘Front Foot Football’ now , or , in the future under LM ?

I don’t 

No!  But that’s not to say I can’t watch a different method of play and enjoy it, e.g. for its tactical astuteness.  I didn’t find LJ’s 17/18 League Team (pre-Xmas) terribly exciting, but I really loved its attrition and compressing of the pitch that stifled opponents, and gave us a chance of grinding out chances.

4 minutes ago, Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan said:

How have we got from the Watford away performance to this thread in just over a month?

Call it wetting the bed if you want but yes, on current form we can absolutely get dragged into a relegation battle and what happens in the next 4 or 5 games will go some way to seeing if that will happen. Think Weds and Rotherham are in real trouble but could’ve done without QPR winning yesterday.

 

 

In my eyes, because it was a bit of a one-off.  We rarely hit those levels (under any manager).  It was also the third win on the trot (hysteria!!!) having built upon a great defensive 1-0 v Sunderland and a pretty decent win 3-2 v Hull.  But we’d been 4 without a win before Sunderland, and had the big Bristol City test of Brum, Preston, Millwall to come! Rollercoaster innit!

[Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan]

8 minutes ago, Loosey Boy said:

Next two games are really tough but then we start playing some of the teams in/around us…..we need a win quickly from a confidence perspective, more than anything.

I’m looking forward to seeing Twine and Sykes in the same team as those two should make a difference to us, creating and causing teams a lot of problems.

The team that I think could get dragged into trouble at the moment, is Swansea - next four games:-

Hull A

Leeds H

Ipswich H

Sunderland A

It’s the confidence bit I worry about, we don’t want to face those teams around us after demoralising defeats against the likes of Boro and Saints. Now I’m not saying that’s definitely going to happen just that it’s tough on the players with Forest away and a few injuries.

 

[Silvio Dante]

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

There comes a time when fans can rightly expect to see improvement. Being fair to Manning I would say next Christmas is a time we should be seeing this front foot football spoken of by Sid and better results, particularly at the Gate. If we don’t what happens then?

 

I think the reckoning will come before then. Liam getting until Christmas next season has to be predicated on improvement before that point - or based on trajectory, we’ll be deep in a relegation dogfight. 

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

That’s way too generous imho.  That’s just me.

I think I’ll be pretty confident of which way we are going by the end of the season, probably the next month or so in reality.

I won’t be aligned to the hierarchy though, I know that.

And this is where my thinking aligns with Dave’s. I think the end of this season is a more than reasonable time to make a call. And there’s a few reasons for that:

- We’ve just done a mid season sacking which both those for and against it acknowledge was poorly timed, and having the possibility of doing so again is the definition of madness as it means another season written off

- If there are doubts that LM is the right man at the end of this season, then it would be reckless to give him money to spend then. We’d end up wasting the Scott money, and start on the route of bringing in different style players. Nobody wants to end up with a bloated, misshapen squad and we run that risks if there are real doubts.

- As I’ve noted, giving Liam a pre season to get his players in isn’t a magic bullet. His best season came after taking over in August and he’s 1 all on poor or good records post a pre season. If there was compelling evidence post a pre season he gets it right, it’s a different argument

- He’ll have had north of 30 games then. For an “on the grass” coach who improves teams, that seems a reasonable sample to see if that improvement is evidenced

Hopefully irrelevant as we go on a good run of sustained improvement from now until May and there are no doubts he’s the right man. But for a lot of reasons, end of season is absolutely the time to make a decision as opposed to waiting until Christmas.

[Mr Popodopolous]

There were two phases to the LJ August/September 2017 to late December 2017/late January 2018 tbh.

Phase one was with Diedhiou and Reid, more open- quite high shots numbers, goals at both ends..but less stable.

Then Phase 2 was the 4-4-1-1. Paterson, behind Reid. Brownhill wide right, a Magnússon-Bryan left side.

Less flowing/dominant perhaps but more control and in some ways more technical ie the 4-4-2-0 (Paterson and Reid), the original for 4 CBS, could even see it as a 4-6-0 in phases- technical  because the centre can be controlled more readily in that specific shape.

We steadily lost that over time. Sunderland first half 3-0 up had it, Diony for Reid didn't!

Leeds away 1st half kind of did.

Sheffield Wednesday at home early March, this was the final vestiges.

Was never to be seen again, not even properly attempted despite just a few sales.

Edited February 4 by Mr Popodopolous

[Sheltons Army]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No!  But that’s not to say I can’t watch a different method of play and enjoy it, e.g. for its tactical astuteness.  I didn’t find LJ’s 17/18 League Team (pre-Xmas) terribly exciting, but I really loved its attrition and compressing of the pitch that stifled opponents, and gave us a chance of grinding out chances.

Agreed , affective is good , whichever way !

But it does concern me that they (JL / BT - LM) aren’t completely on the same page 

[Loosey Boy]

4 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think the reckoning will come before then. Liam getting until Christmas next season has to be predicated on improvement before that point - or based on trajectory, we’ll be deep in a relegation dogfight. 

And this is where my thinking aligns with Dave’s. I think the end of this season is a more than reasonable time to make a call. And there’s a few reasons for that:

- We’ve just done a mid season sacking which both those for and against it acknowledge was poorly timed, and having the possibility of doing so again is the definition of madness as it means another season written off

- If there are doubts that LM is the right man at the end of this season, then it would be reckless to give him money to spend then. We’d end up wasting the Scott money, and start on the route of bringing in different style players. Nobody wants to end up with a bloated, misshapen squad and we run that risks if there are real doubts.

- As I’ve noted, giving Liam a pre season to get his players in isn’t a magic bullet. His best season came after taking over in August and he’s 1 all on poor or good records post a pre season. If there was compelling evidence post a pre season he gets it right, it’s a different argument

- He’ll have had north of 30 games then. For an “on the grass” coach who improves teams, that seems a reasonable sample to see if that improvement is evidenced

Hopefully irrelevant as we go on a good run of sustained improvement from now until May and there are no doubts he’s the right man. But for a lot of reasons, end of season is absolutely the time to make a decision as opposed to waiting until Christmas.

I don’t think there’s any chance of us contemplating a change at the end of the season - BT and the Board have given Liam and 3.5 year contract, have a history of sticking with managers unless we are in danger of relegation.

They will back him well in the summer too, me thinks as they can’t afford for him to fail, having made the change this season.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Loosey Boy said:

I don’t think there’s any chance of us contemplating a change at the end of the season - BT and the Board have given Liam and 3.5 year contract, have a history of sticking with managers unless we are in danger of relegation.

They will back him well in the summer too, me thinks as they can’t afford for him to fail, having made the change this season.

I think the only chance, unlikely as it is, is if we go on a really horrible run.

[Silvio Dante]

6 minutes ago, Loosey Boy said:

I don’t think there’s any chance of us contemplating a change at the end of the season - BT and the Board have given Liam and 3.5 year contract, have a history of sticking with managers unless we are in danger of relegation.

They will back him well in the summer too, me thinks as they can’t afford for him to fail, having made the change this season.

Yeah I don’t think you’re inherently wrong. My point is whether that would be the right thing for the club (and again, it’s not saying sack him at season end, it’s saying this is why you should assess at season end)

The wildcard here is that any Manning sacking before probably end of 24/25 would lead to the end of Tinnion due to his fingerprints being on the appointment. And he’s a turkey, but I don’t see him voting for Christmas.

[Wealwayseatcheese]

Jeez, thought you meant the blue few were coming for us for a minute

[42nite]

My concern is, if they sack Manning who will the jokers get in next?

[TDarwall]

11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 It was also the third win on the trot

Streaky Li(am).

[Red-Robbo]

It's incredibly unlikely that we could face relegation this season, but certainly not impossible that we could finish lower than 14th, which would represent going backwards, zero progression, on behalf of the club and call into question once again the decision to sack Pearson. 

[mozo]

On 03/02/2024 at 22:58, headhunter said:

Not a good look though to finish 17th-19th though is it and unless there's a marked improvement in form that's where we could finish?

Definitely not a good look, and a pretty miserable season all round.

On 03/02/2024 at 23:12, Silvio Dante said:

The money bet is next season.

There is no chance in hell we are going down this year. But if we continue this trajectory of form, it takes a massive turnaround for us to do anything next year. Make no mistake - we are in trouble for 24/25 as we stand

Fortunately there are lot of moving parts. We already have Twine and Mebude coming in as reinforcements. Then Bird and probably others in the summer (as well as players moving on).

Next season, our side will have a very different look to it, and with a full preseason the head coach can implement his methods more.

Will it bring results? I have absolutely no idea! Knowing City, it probably won't be without ups and downs.

[Natchfever]

3 hours ago, 42nite said:

My concern is, if they sack Manning who will the jokers get in next?

Lee Johnson.

[Monkeh]

3 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

Lee Johnson.

If manning were to get sacked I fully expect tinnion to become interim manager 

But manning isn't getting sacked this season

[Natchfever]

9 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

If manning were to get sacked I fully expect tinnion to become interim manager 

But manning isn't getting sacked this season

Agreed, although I was only slightly tongue in cheek about the return of him

[Silvio Dante]

16 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

If manning were to get sacked I fully expect tinnion to become interim manager 

But manning isn't getting sacked this season

I don’t. 

In the words of George Clooney in From Dusk Til Dawn he “may be a bastard but he’s not a ****ing bastard”

Tinnion knows if Manning fails - especially quickly - he’s done. His massive ego may let him think he could do the job, but he couldn’t cope with the reaction from the fanbase when he walked to the dugout as they know exactly who is the main mover here. The club wouldn’t be idiotic enough to make him interim. They’d move him on as well.

Jon Lansdown would be interim manager.

Edited February 5 by Silvio Dante

[frenchred]

On 04/02/2024 at 00:03, pillred said:

My God, I bet you could not wait to post, so if we were the same number of points from making the playoffs would it mean we should all prepare to be possibly booking tickets to Wembley? thought not.

I wouldn't if I were you!

[Fuber]

On 04/02/2024 at 06:45, TV Tom said:

The fact that Pearson didn't address the fact in the summer that we needed a striker is half the problem

This is bait.

[frenchred]

5 minutes ago, Fuber said:

This is bait.

This is why I've got him on ignore!

[MarcusX]

19 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Wasn’t it the case that in that particular season Jarrod Bowen was carrying a poor Hull side and after they sold him to West Ham form fell off a cliff? Not great stats either way but I don’t think we’re in the shape of if we lose one body from the current squad it’d impact us in any where near a similar way

Indeed. As prior I’m more concerned with next season, and have already said I’d look at LMs position in the summer before committing a load of funds to a rebuild which we seem to be in, but I don’t think it’s unfair to say if we are in the highly unlikely event of a relegation battle in late April things would have gone catastrophically wrong and the only logical conclusion should be both the manager and Tecknikal Director leaving.

Exactly that, Bowen left on deadline day with 16 goals already that season.

We've still got the players that can put the ball in the net, with the right supply.

Twine coming in and Sykes coming back should strengthen us on that front so i don't think it's a fair comparison

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

2 hours ago, Fuber said:

This is bait.

True though…

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

True though…

I guess you had a different budget to the one Nige had too?

[Supersonic Robin]

On 04/02/2024 at 08:24, Baldyman said:

I really don’t think we can afford to be too blasé about our likelihood to go down even with one relegation spot all but decided already . Plymouth will go above us if they win their game in hand and Blackburn and Birmingham will be within one win of us if they win theirs . Add in the fact that we’ve got Southampton and Boro coming up , the game against QPR could become a must win ! If we don’t , we’ll be well and truly in it so any “ we’re safe” arrogance is a very dangerous thing . 

Without meaning to jinx it, I think we can be fairly relaxed. I'd be absolutely amazed if we went down.

It's easy to say things like "we're only X points above the relegation zone, 3 wins and team Y will be right behind us!", but people forget something relative simple - teams at the bottom of the table don't win very often. Rotherham, for example, only have 3 wins all season. The chance of them winning a few games back to back is minimal. The bottom 3 are all averaging less than a point per game this season.

We have a buffer of 10 points and 7 teams between us and the bottom 3.  Even with a very underwhelming 2nd half to the season, we should be able to drag ourselves over the line without too much worry.

23 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

To all those that say no way will we go down. Just a reminder. On 9th February 2020 Hull City sat in 14th place on 40 points. At the end of the season that sat in 24th place on 45 points. 

True, but that's a bit of a freak event (as illustrated by Hull collecting just 5 points in a third of a season).

It's not disimillar to saying "You can't write off Burnley as Premier League champions next year - remember Leciester City?"

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Supersonic Robin said:

Without meaning to jinx it, I think we can be fairly relaxed. I'd be absolutely amazed if we went down.

It's easy to say things like "we're only X points above the relegation zone, 3 wins and team Y will be right behind us!", but people forget something relative simple - teams at the bottom of the table don't win very often. Rotherham, for example, only have 3 wins all season. The chance of them winning a few games back to back is minimal. The bottom 3 are all averaging less than a point per game this season.

We have a buffer of 10 points and 7 teams between us and the bottom 3.  Even with a very underwhelming 2nd half to the season, we should be able to drag ourselves over the line without too much worry.

True, but that's a bit of a freak event (as illustrated by Hull collecting just 5 points in a third of a season).

It's not disimillar to saying "You can't write off Burnley as Premier League champions next year - remember Leciester City?"

This is all true. Add to that the fact that we put in a decent performance away to a dangerous top half opponent just 2 games ago, and you realise that talking about relegation is overly pessimistic.