Substitutions and (again) game management

[Silvio Dante]

First things first - we can all agree that was awful and only Max comes out with real credit today.

But…the subs.

I think on the triple sub the players coming off were broadly the right ones. But the ones who came on, with the exception of TGH, were odd.

Mehmeti had to be hooked. It was said in the game thread how poor his positioning was. But when you have Sykes on the bench who can easily come on and knows how to play at this level, it’s the obvious sub - most of us would have him in the starting line up when everyone’s available. Dire was dire, but when you’re playing against seasoned championship players putting a guy with 70 minutes experience in senior football was an insane risk.

(On Dire after today I’m really interested to see the reason why Westerlo were ok to let him go. The work permit story makes no sense when looked into)

Knight again being subbed I was ok with. But it should have been Twine. We played Tommy deeper than Wells and against a side sitting in you needed the press less and someone who could create. It was a case of not reacting that we needed something different in the situation.

I would have also gone Tommy for Wells, but the base is the subs were wrong either in personnel or way they were executed. And we didn’t solely lose due to that - it was an awful performance overall - but the game management there certainly didn’t help.

[Graham76]

I thought bringing Cornick on was a terrible decision.  What a sign of intent by Manning! 

Needless to say he went on to have an absolute shocker. We need to get rid of him asap. 

[Frenchay Red]

1 minute ago, Graham76 said:

I thought bringing Cornick on was a terrible decision.  What a sign of intent by Manning! 

Needless to say he went on to have an absolute shocker. We need to get rid of him asap. 

Corning or Manning?

[The Bard]

Just now, Graham76 said:

I thought bringing Cornick on was a terrible decision.  What a sign of intent by Manning! 

Needless to say he went on to have an absolute shocker. We need to get rid of him asap. 

We were shite before that sub with the exception of Bell who started really well. Presume Sykes wasn't up to 70 minutes hence he wasn't brought on. If it wasn't for our core Max  Zac, Dickie and James it would've been catastrophic 

[Alessandro]

Watford away and Southampton home performances in the league looking more like anomalies and we’ve seen many more performances like that today.

Plan A was frankly awful and there was no plan B again and an inability to affect a game going against us, again.

That squad today - as good as it’s been for years, we have to be doing better than that, so poor and the players just looked like they gave up there.

A win % of 0.3 - This is why the jury is just still out for me on Manning.

And that’s not me saying Manning is shit full stop - but me saying I’m seeing little to show Manning has the tactical x-factor needed to take this club from a mid table budget group to play off contenders. 
 

As always, I hope I’m wrong.

[JP Hampton]

31 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

First things first - we can all agree that was awful and only Max comes out with real credit today.

But…the subs.

I think on the triple sub the players coming off were broadly the right ones. But the ones who came on, with the exception of TGH, were odd.

Mehmeti had to be hooked. It was said in the game thread how poor his positioning was. But when you have Sykes on the bench who can easily come on and knows how to play at this level, it’s the obvious sub - most of us would have him in the starting line up when everyone’s available. Dire was dire, but when you’re playing against seasoned championship players putting a guy with 70 minutes experience in senior football was an insane risk.

(On Dire after today I’m really interested to see the reason why Westerlo were ok to let him go. The work permit story makes no sense when looked into)

Knight again being subbed I was ok with. But it should have been Twine. We played Tommy deeper than Wells and against a side sitting in you needed the press less and someone who could create. It was a case of not reacting that we needed something different in the situation.

I would have also gone Tommy for Wells, but the base is the subs were wrong either in personnel or way they were executed. And we didn’t solely lose due to that - it was an awful performance overall - but the game management there certainly didn’t help.

Agree with much of what you’ve said. I think at the time those being subbed off seemed reasonable but those who replaced them didn’t improve on what we already had. 
  I think we actually missed Mehmeti when he went off. To my mind he was the only one creating anything. Dire wasn’t used to take advantage of his apparent pace so what was the point. Looked totally lost. 
 

 A total lack of bravery.  Don’t think any sub was an improvement over those who were subbed off. 

Edited February 17 by JP Hampton

[JP Hampton]

6 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Watford away and Southampton home performances in the league looking more like anomalies and we’ve seen many more performances like that today.

Plan A was frankly awful and there was no plan B again and an inability to affect a game going against us, again.

That squad today - as good as it’s been for years, we have to be doing better than that, so poor and the players just looked like they gave up there.

A win % of 0.3 - This is why the jury is just still out for me on Manning.

And that’s not me saying Manning is shit full stop - but me saying I’m seeing little to show Manning has the tactical x-factor needed to take this club from a mid table budget group to play off contenders. 
 

As always, I hope I’m wrong.

Yes exactly. Never see a plan B. Subs don’t always necessarily impact a game if nothing else changes. 

[Out of his pie crust]

I actually thought the three subs killed what momentum we’d built up, had a few corners, crowd was lifting, then the subs kind of killed it. Bad day at office all round tbf

[Dr Balls]

It’s the lack of a “Plan B” if “Plan A” isn’t working. The only changes are different players in the same system. We were getting done in midfield and had no creativity. Why not add TGH to James and Williams to have 3 in central midfield in the second half? Yes play Wells and Conway together but how about having them both upfront rather than Tommy trying to play a number 10 role I.e. going 4-3-1-2, rather than continuing a 4.-2-3-1 that was achieving very little?

Twine was on the bench. If he was fit enough for the bench why not use him? As for Dire, more “oh dear”. There are so many things about him, even before coming to us on loan, that don’t quite add up. And as for his performance, he was significantly less impressive than Yeboah, who appears to have been sent back to the U21s by Manning.

Usual service has been resumed. City remain consistently inconsistent and mid table mediocrity appears to be the best that we can hope for.

And one final point on Manning being a young coach. Yes he is, but he’s been coaching at some level for 10+ years. It’s not like a guy who has been playing to his mid 30s and just taken up coaching. If he doesn’t know how to change things mid game to influence play then why not? It’s surely something that every coach should have learnt by this stage in his career.

[GrahamC]

I wonder how much we thought Sykes had in the tank.

He was the fifth sub used which suggests not much.

I am baffled by Twine being a sub & not coming on, absolutely no sense in him being a sub if he wasn’t fit to do so.

Cornick has done well of late & although he wouldn’t have been my choice to come on, I understand why we did.

Williams had to come off, he’d already been involved in an off the ball incident that might have been a red if seen (or we had VAR) & TGH was the obvious replacement, today not for the first time as a sub, he was poor though.

Otherwise baffling, Mebude (dire is absolutely the word) in front of both Sykes or Twine, WTF?

A bad day all round.

[Harry]

1 minute ago, GrahamC said:

I wonder how much we thought Sykes had in the tank.

He was the fifth sub used which suggests not much.

I am baffled by Twine being a sub & not coming on, absolutely no sense in him being a sub if he wasn’t fit to do so.

Cornick has done well of late & although he wouldn’t have been my choice to come on, I understand why we did.

Williams had to come off, he’d already been involved in an off the ball incident that might have been a red if seen (or we had VAR) & TGH was the obvious replacement, today not for the first time as a sub, he was poor though.

Otherwise baffling, Mebude (dire is absolutely the word) in front of both Sykes or Twine, WTF?

A bad day all round.

Yep. 
No one can convince me or give any reasonable rationale as to why Twine didn’t come on. 
If he’s on the bench he must be fit enough for at least 15-20 mins. 
And he was signed for this exact situation - needing something different around the box versus a team happy to sit in. 
We signed him for these exact moments. 
Baffled I am. 
 

As for Gardner-Hickman. 
I’ve kept my powder dry on him so far but I’ve not as yet been overly impressed with him. Yes, a few decent moments here and there but he’s done nothing to convince me yet. 
And then today, he enters the fray with us needing to sharpen up, quicken the passes, start to impose ourselves etc and he’s the slowest effing passer out there, taking 3 or 4 touches every time he has the ball and getting easily dispossessed about 6 times. 
There was one moment he had an acre in midfield, received a pass, took 3 touches to turn, had a chance at a quick ball out to McCrorie in loads of space but proceeded to pass it at about 0.5 miles per hour and it eventually reached a now fully marked McCrorie the following week!  
Effing quicken it up man!! So damn slow at everything. 
I still need a lot of convincing on this kid. Sorry. 

[winsaw]

Subs were bizarre today, he put a load of square pegs in round holes I just don't see what he was trying to do, he distroyed what little shape we had and made the game harder for us, it was almost back to the bad old days of little Lee's tombola , all a bit depressing really

[Red white and red]

Maybe Bristol City and Liam Manning just aren’t very good? Maybe. 

[cidered abroad]

13 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

I wonder how much we thought Sykes had in the tank.

He was the fifth sub used which suggests not much.

I am baffled by Twine being a sub & not coming on, absolutely no sense in him being a sub if he wasn’t fit to do so.

Cornick has done well of late & although he wouldn’t have been my choice to come on, I understand why we did.

Williams had to come off, he’d already been involved in an off the ball incident that might have been a red if seen (or we had VAR) & TGH was the obvious replacement, today not for the first time as a sub, he was poor though.

Otherwise baffling, Mebude (dire is absolutely the word) in front of both Sykes or Twine, WTF?

A bad day all round.

Sykes didn't appear to be match fit by a long way. Not one attempt to beat the full back. I'm not blaming him. Either poor instructions from LM or nowhere near ready to return.

The youngster signed from Belgium - Yeboah would have seemed like an international.

All round, a dreadful City performance from Head Coach to the ball boys.

 

[Sir Geoff]

Personally thought the timing of the triple subs was odd. We we just got a bit of momentum going and having a good spell. He should have told them to sit down again and wait 5 minutes to see how the game played out.

We were certainly no better after 60 mins than before.

 

Personally thought the timing of the triple subs was odd. We we just got a bit of momentum going and having a good spell. He should have told them to sit down again and wait 5 minutes to see how the game played out.

We were certainly no better after 60 mins than before.

 

[Silvio Dante]

So, we think the conclusion here as to the subs may well be that players were on the bench who weren’t fit enough to impact the game over a “reasonable” period (min 20 minutes for me), but may have been on there either in an emergency or to give us 5 minutes when comfortable. That feels a pretty bizarre approach to me.

I’d hope that Piercy asks about the logic here at the next presser.

[Rob k]

1 minute ago, Sir Geoff said:

Personally thought the timing of the triple subs was odd. We we just got a bit of momentum going and having a good spell. He should have told them to sit down again and wait 5 minutes to see how the game played out.

We were certainly no better after 60 mins than before.

 

Personally thought the timing of the triple subs was odd. We we just got a bit of momentum going and having a good spell. He should have told them to sit down again and wait 5 minutes to see how the game played out.

We were certainly no better after 60 mins than before.

 

Just to be clear - did you think the timing of the triple sub was odd

[Back of the Dolman]

39 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Personally thought the timing of the triple subs was odd. We we just got a bit of momentum going and having a good spell. He should have told them to sit down again and wait 5 minutes to see how the game played out.

We were certainly no better after 60 mins than before.

 

Personally thought the timing of the triple subs was odd. We we just got a bit of momentum going and having a good spell. He should have told them to sit down again and wait 5 minutes to see how the game played out.

We were certainly no better after 60 mins than before.

 

You really did think this didn’t you ? So much so you posted it twice

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, JP Hampton said:

I think we actually missed Mehmeti when he went off. To my mind he was the only one creating anything.

I agree.

+++++

The reason why Sykes came on was because McCrorie came off and there is a thought that Sykes a a right sided attacking player can do what he does from his conventional position from RB.  I has rarely worked previously.  McCrorie is still finding his way back to getting 90 mins.

Your choice is to leave him on and make a different change and hope he gets through 90.

[Davefevs]

59 minutes ago, Harry said:

As for Gardner-Hickman. 
I’ve kept my powder dry on him so far but I’ve not as yet been overly impressed with him. Yes, a few decent moments here and there but he’s done nothing to convince me yet. 
And then today, he enters the fray with us needing to sharpen up, quicken the passes, start to impose ourselves etc and he’s the slowest effing passer out there, taking 3 or 4 touches every time he has the ball and getting easily dispossessed about 6 times. 
There was one moment he had an acre in midfield, received a pass, took 3 touches to turn, had a chance at a quick ball out to McCrorie in loads of space but proceeded to pass it at about 0.5 miles per hour and it eventually reached a now fully marked McCrorie the following week!  
Effing quicken it up man!! So damn slow at everything. 
I still need a lot of convincing on this kid. Sorry. 

I think he’s a good player and has proved it in many appearances this season.

[westred1]

1 hour ago, Graham76 said:

I thought bringing Cornick on was a terrible decision.  What a sign of intent by Manning! 

Needless to say he went on to have an absolute shocker. We need to get rid of him asap. 

Only thing I could think of was Sykes wasn’t fit enough for more than 20 minutes on his return. Same with Twine. Mebude clearly not ready for lengthy minutes. Only option was Cornick, unless he played Conway wide.

[Dredd]

I think Manning got it all wrong today. Starting line up, subs, formations in the second half

[Harry]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I think he’s a good player and has proved it in many appearances this season.

He’s shown in half a dozen games that he’s pretty much ok. Not much more than that. 
And if he keeps doing what he did today then I’ll be making a much bigger deal of it

[Harry]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I agree.

+++++

The reason why Sykes came on was because McCrorie came off and there is a thought that Sykes a a right sided attacking player can do what he does from his conventional position from RB.  I has rarely worked previously.  McCrorie is still finding his way back to getting 90 mins.

Your choice is to leave him on and make a different change and hope he gets through 90.

I agree that I would have also kept Mehmeti on. He was the only one looking remotely like given them something to think about.  
If he wanted to get Medube on, he’s more comfortable on the right, so could have been worth having both Mehmeti and Medube on each flank - that might have been something slightly different. 

[Redtucks]

53 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Personally thought the timing of the triple subs was odd. We we just got a bit of momentum going and having a good spell. He should have told them to sit down again and wait 5 minutes to see how the game played out.

We were certainly no better after 60 mins than before.

 

Personally thought the timing of the triple subs was odd. We we just got a bit of momentum going and having a good spell. He should have told them to sit down again and wait 5 minutes to see how the game played out.

We were certainly no better after 60 mins than before.

 

Personally thought the need to repeat yourself was odd.

It was certainly no better reading it again than before.

 

[Engvall’s Splinter]

17 minutes ago, Harry said:

He’s shown in half a dozen games that he’s pretty much ok. Not much more than that. 
And if he keeps doing what he did today then I’ll be making a much bigger deal of it

I’m with @Harry. On average during his time here, he’s probably at a 6.5/10. He’s shown glimpses that he has something, but not enough to bring forward the deal to sign him in Jan.

I’m not actually convinced Manning is totally sold on him despite the club completing the deal. 
 

As fans I think sometimes a players personality and club “buy-in” can give extra points, rather than it being solely based on the quality and consistency of their performances. 

[exAtyeoMax]

I don’t understand why Sykes kept stopping on the 25 yd line waiting to pass to someone, why not keep going? Ooh just pass it back to Zac…

why not keep running and cross it into the box? 

[Davefevs]

48 minutes ago, Harry said:

He’s shown in half a dozen games that he’s pretty much ok. Not much more than that. 
And if he keeps doing what he did today then I’ll be making a much bigger deal of it

Don’t worry by next season you’ll have Bird to focus on

[BigTone]

30 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

I’m with @Harry. On average during his time here, he’s probably at a 6.5/10. He’s shown glimpses that he has something, but not enough to bring forward the deal to sign him in Jan.

I’m not actually convinced Manning is totally sold on him despite the club completing the deal. 
 

As fans I think sometimes a players personality and club “buy-in” can give extra points, rather than it being solely based on the quality and consistency of their performances. 

Mehmeti did zero today which pretty much sums up his time at the club.  We will never progress with players of his calibre.

[Back of the Dolman]

8 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Mehmeti did zero today which pretty much sums up his time at the club.  We will never progress with players of his calibre.

I agree with you, but there’s plenty on here who think differently.

For me he’s got no pace, can’t beat a man, his final ball is poor and his awareness for his defensive duties is lacking.

Not championship standard