Substitutions and (again) game management

[Bs4Red]

If he’d have brought Sykes on and he got injured we’d be moaning about poor man management. Likewise with Twine possibly getting him back in around the squad and match day was important considering he’s still new to the club. 
 

The reaction to a defeat is embarrassing after a really positive week. 
 

Would have bit your hand off for 6 points from the last 3 games. 

[Mendip City]

16 hours ago, Out of his pie crust said:

I actually thought the three subs killed what momentum we’d built up, had a few corners, crowd was lifting, then the subs kind of killed it. Bad day at office all round tbf

This! We were having our best spell and finally getting going…. But the subs seem to be made almost robotically regardless of the match situation. 

[Back of the Dolman]

1 hour ago, Bs4Red said:

If he’d have brought Sykes on and he got injured we’d be moaning about poor man management. Likewise with Twine possibly getting him back in around the squad and match day was important considering he’s still new to the club. 
 

The reaction to a defeat is embarrassing after a really positive week. 
 

Would have bit your hand off for 6 points from the last 3 games. 

As far as I’m concerned if they’re on the bench then the staff have deemed them fit to return.

We can’t not bring them on in case they get injured again.

If that was Mannings thinking then they shouldn’t have been on the bench and there would be no need for debate.

And that is not any reaction to the defeat.

As you say 6 points from the last three games is good but when you’ve got those 6 points in the two perceived toughest games then people will have raised expectations for the home match against QPR.

And I would expect the hierarchy thought the same due to our top 6 quality squad.

 

[Bs4Red]

Just now, Back of the Dolman said:

As far as I’m concerned if they’re on the bench then the staff have deemed them fit to return.

We can’t not bring them on in case they get injured again.

If that was Mannings thinking then they shouldn’t have been on the bench and there would be no need for debate.

And that is not any reaction to the defeat.

As you say 6 points from the last three games is good but when you’ve got those 6 points in the two perceived toughest games then people will have raised expectations for the home match against QPR.

And I would expect the hierarchy thought the same due to our top 6 quality squad.

 

I can understand that mate but at the same time it’s about managing a return. 
Getting back up to speed by playing matches but won’t just seamlessly be able to play 90 straight away. 
Maybe after Cornick scoring in midweek and energy he felt that was a fair choice. 

[Back of the Dolman]

Just now, Bs4Red said:

I can understand that mate but at the same time it’s about managing a return. 
Getting back up to speed by playing matches but won’t just seamlessly be able to play 90 straight away. 
Maybe after Cornick scoring in midweek and energy he felt that was a fair choice. 

I’ll be honest I haven’t seen anyone saying that Sykes or Twine should have played 90 minutes and that isn’t what I was advocating but if you have then fair enough.

What we were doing wasn’t working and we just went with like for like subs, we needed something different and Twine could have given that.

I’m afraid that if Twine couldn’t do 15-20 minutes then his inclusion on the bench was pointless 

[Bs4Red]

5 minutes ago, Back of the Dolman said:

I’ll be honest I haven’t seen anyone saying that Sykes or Twine should have played 90 minutes and that isn’t what I was advocating but if you have then fair enough.

What we were doing wasn’t working and we just went with like for like subs, we needed something different and Twine could have given that.

I’m afraid that if Twine couldn’t do 15-20 minutes then his inclusion on the bench was pointless 

But do you not think for a new player to be back in amongst the squad doing the warm up and being part of it would be massive for him? 
 

He’s still integrating into the group 

[Silvio Dante]

5 minutes ago, Back of the Dolman said:

I’m afraid that if Twine couldn’t do 15-20 minutes then his inclusion on the bench was pointless 

Just said the same on another thread. I get there may be an “integration” piece (but he may not even be here long term) but I’m not sure why he can’t do that being around the squad on a matchday without taking a place on the bench. 

[Back of the Dolman]

5 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

But do you not think for a new player to be back in amongst the squad doing the warm up and being part of it would be massive for him? 
 

He’s still integrating into the group 

Not really no, he’s not a youngster who’s just coming into football, he’s got over 200 league and cup appearances so I don’t think being involved in a pre match warm up will speed his integration into the squad and ultimately he could have done that if they really thought it was important without him being on the bench.

He’s with the group all week and I would of thought he’s well down the road to integration.

[Davefevs]

Sykes looked way off the pace, then suddenly made a lung-busting recovery run when QPR were on the break.  Strange performance.

[Back of the Dolman]

26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Sykes looked way off the pace, then suddenly made a lung-busting recovery run when QPR were on the break.  Strange performance.

Yes I remember that and it was certainly a good test of him that he came through without issue.

Could it be a case that the player’s natural instincts on the pitch are being dampened by the style of play or message that is coming from the sidelines ? Is it too rigid without natural expression?

Not a criticism of the coaching staff but there seem to be a lot of comments about players performances being strange

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Just said the same on another thread. I get there may be an “integration” piece (but he may not even be here long term) but I’m not sure why he can’t do that being around the squad on a matchday without taking a place on the bench. 

I get putting players on the bench if they are expected to be able to do 45 and are either, important to the team or we are short of players. I'm not sure either was the case. 
Twine is the Playmaker Manning was desperate for, we weren't creating seems an obvious sub really . Unless he's not really ready or LM doesn't know where to fit him in . 
The Sykes one was annoying , should have been the perfect early sub ,but I get not risking him for what was almost a full game.  Having 2 on the bench that weren't ready seems like madness to me. 

[marmite]

3 hours ago, Bs4Red said:

If he’d have brought Sykes on and he got injured we’d be moaning about poor man management. Likewise with Twine possibly getting him back in around the squad and match day was important considering he’s still new to the club. 
 

The reaction to a defeat is embarrassing after a really positive week. 
 

Would have bit your hand off for 6 points from the last 3 games. 

I don't buy into this 6 points from 3 games thinking. If yesterday had been our final game and we had needed points to secure a play off spot, would you still be saying I would have bitten your hand off to finish 7th?

This was typical Bristol City and typical Championship. Just look at who's been beating who lately. 

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, Bs4Red said:

But do you not think for a new player to be back in amongst the squad doing the warm up and being part of it would be massive for him? 
 

He’s still integrating into the group 

I know you want to defend everything LM , and why

But this has to be one of the most bizarre suggestions for a place on the bench I’ve ever seen

Hes not 14 , he’s a pretty experienced pro who spends all day every day with the squad 

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I get putting players on the bench if they are expected to be able to do 45 and are either, important to the team or we are short of players. I'm not sure either was the case. 
Twine is the Playmaker Manning was desperate for, we weren't creating seems an obvious sub really . Unless he's not really ready or LM doesn't know where to fit him in . 
The Sykes one was annoying , should have been the perfect early sub ,but I get not risking him for what was almost a full game.  Having 2 on the bench that weren't ready seems like madness to me. 

Nige’s general view (nothing to do with cult of Nige) was that a player needed to be able to play a whole game to be on the bench.  An injury could happen in the first 5 minutes.  Think he made this comment first off re Robbie Cundy not being on the bench having come through some minutes in an u21 game.

[1960maaan]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Nige’s general view (nothing to do with cult of Nige) was that a player needed to be able to play a whole game to be on the bench.  An injury could happen in the first 5 minutes.  Think he made this comment first off re Robbie Cundy not being on the bench having come through some minutes in an u21 game.

Over the years I've seen both reasons/arguments/excuses for having or not having certain players on the bench. With so many Subs available now you do have the options . So say Sykes is OK'd for 45 minutes , I get him being on the bench as we have plenty of other spots. What I don't get is if Twine is in the same position , then you are taking 2 slots with players that can't cover an early injury . Not sure why he didn't get on yesterday, but it didn't feel like we had a real plan with the Subs. 
We will see with the starting team Saturday just how fit everyone was. After yesterday I expect changes and you would think Twine and Sykes , under normal circumstances , would be the ones you'd look to. If they are on the bench again I'd say they weren't really ready yesterday. 

But I would add the caveat , what the hell do I know.

[Offside]

Like others, I am baffled as to why Twine didn’t come on yesterday. We desperately needed someone to spark some creativity and, being on the bench, he was surely there to be used. 

 

[BigTone]

16 hours ago, Harry said:

We’ll have to disagree on this one big guy. I thought he was the only player today who looked like he was giving qpr anything to worry about. 
If everyone scores a 4 today, he’d at least get a 5. 

No problem with that as we all see things differently and I respect your opinion.  Just think he tries to be too much of a show pony instead of a workhorse.  Either way we will not progress with players like this in the team and never will.  In saying that he is not alone in that respect,

[Mr Popodopolous]

Part of this will have been linked to QPR and their tactics but I didn't fully appreciate at the time that prior to the substitutions we were better or level in a lot of respects.

After we appear to have become an uncoordinated mess.

Stats don't tell the whole story of course but the substitutions and the excess of attacking players were far from helpful, or conducive.

Edited February 18 by Mr Popodopolous

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Back of the Dolman said:

I agree with you, but there’s plenty on here who think differently.

For me he’s got no pace, can’t beat a man, his final ball is poor and his awareness for his defensive duties is lacking.

Not championship standard 

Spot on, a player signed as a maverick to do the unexpected and provide a different kind of threat to our opponents, Mehmeti has failed on every count for me.

If the stats say differently I’d like to see them, goals scored, assists, defensive interceptions per game?
 

A gamble that hasn’t paid off, he wanted to go on loan before NP left, should be moved on in the summer.

[Harry]

18 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

When he moved to the left in the last fifteen minutes of the first half he was reasonably effective with a couple of good runs. 
 

On the right for the first thirty minutes he was abysmal. His positioning was way off and McCrorie gave him a deserved bollocking for it mid half. He was pulling way too narrow which made sense if it was making space for Ross wide but it wasn’t - possibly it was tactical but it wasn’t working. Start of the second half he was ineffective again.

There was indeed a gesture from McCrorie to Mehmeti (I wouldn’t call it anywhere near a bollocking). I’ve just watched the game back again. 
It happens on the 20th minute and is about 1:30 prior to McCrorie having that shot that hit the side netting. 
 

Mehmeti was playing very narrow. This happened for the whole period he was on the right. I’m quite surprised that you say “possibly it was tactical”. It was very clearly tactical. He spent more time almost next to Wells than he was near the touchline. We very nearly had a couple of openings during the 5 mins leading up to McCories shot. 
Had Williams had his correct boots on yesterday we’d have had an opportunity for RM in loads of space on about 16 minutes and another when AM nearly got in behind on about 18 mins. 
There was also the Bell cross on about 15 mins where Mehmeti was on the penalty spot. And also on that McCrorie shot, Mehmeti had just made a run to the penalty spot and this was why RM had the time on the edge of the box to make that shot. 
 

It was very clearly tactical that AM was to play about 20 yards infield in the hope that this would allow RM space to drive forward - something which is clearly his strength. 
 

I can’t put any single ounce of blame on AM for playing narrow. The gesture from RM on 20 mins was more one of frustration as he wasn’t getting the space to maraud. Anis was 20 yards inside him the whole time. It was clearly a plan. 
 

Many people wouldn’t have noticed on about 13 minutes, Chair had rolled his man and was about to unleash a shot from the centre of the edge of the box and Anis had managed to get back and make what was probably a goal saving tackle. This was another advantage of his playing narrower, ie he was able to offer an extra defensive support in central areas. 
 

There were a lot of below par performances (well all of them) but Anis was probably the best player of ours (yes, a low bar, but even so).

I was surprised he was subbed off actually and we were noticeably a lot worse after he went off. 

Edited February 18 by Harry

[Bazooka Joe]

Manning's substitutions were certainly sub-standard.

I have a sinking feeling that he's plumbing new depths.

Man (ning) overboard !!!

[Numero Uno]

8 hours ago, Bs4Red said:

If he’d have brought Sykes on and he got injured we’d be moaning about poor man management. Likewise with Twine possibly getting him back in around the squad and match day was important considering he’s still new to the club. 
 

The reaction to a defeat is embarrassing after a really positive week. 
 

Would have bit your hand off for 6 points from the last 3 games. 

Nobody would have bitten anyone’s hand off for nine points from the last nine though. Overall Manning has 23 points from 18 (or 40% of a season) which is par and no better or worse than the bloke he replaced so far. It’s obvious where are problems lie, when teams set out to stop us playing and give us a problem to solve both the manager and the players ain’t solving it at the moment.

The source of the frustration is just when we think we might be getting somewhere we spectacularly revert to type. Clearly that has to change at some point next season, sooner rather than later if the hierarchy are to avoid some serious discontent in my view.

[Bs4Red]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Nobody would have bitten anyone’s hand off for nine points from the last nine though. Overall Manning has 23 points from 18 (or 40% of a season) which is par and no better or worse than the bloke he replaced so far. It’s obvious where are problems lie, when teams set out to stop us playing and give us a problem to solve both the manager and the players ain’t solving it at the moment.

The source of the frustration is just when we think we might be getting somewhere we spectacularly revert to type. Clearly that has to change at some point next season, sooner rather than later if the hierarchy are to avoid some serious discontent in my view.

Absolutely mate and I don’t disagree with that, it’s frustrating to watch us against sides just sat in a low block. 
Difficulty at times for me is that I cannot seeing LM setting us up to pass the ball around at a snails pace and make it easy. 
I don’t really buy into the “big man” plan B. 
He and a few players have spoken about being braver and more proactive in the match. I feel a lot is down to this. 
 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

Absolutely mate and I don’t disagree with that, it’s frustrating to watch us against sides just sat in a low block. 
Difficulty at times for me is that I cannot seeing LM setting us up to pass the ball around at a snails pace and make it easy. 
I don’t really buy into the “big man” plan B. 
He and a few players have spoken about being braver and more proactive in the match. I feel a lot is down to this. 
 

Again, think it is too easy to use the “park the bus”, “sit in a low block” rhetoric.

Pic1 - trying to press high up the pitch.

Pic 2 - yes, low block, but only after we’d worked the ball up the pitch, just in a good shape.  No different to what we do really.

Pic 3 - QPR in possession, from the keeper, still players committed forward - you can’t see Paal and Chair high on the left.

 

[Bs4Red]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Again, think it is too easy to use the “park the bus”, “sit in a low block” rhetoric.

Pic1 - trying to press high up the pitch.

Pic 2 - yes, low block, but only after we’d worked the ball up the pitch, just in a good shape.  No different to what we do really.

Pic 3 - QPR in possession, from the keeper, still players committed forward - you can’t see Paal and Chair high on the left.

 

In fairness was using it in a broader view than specifically Saturday. 

I think what the first two pictures show is something we see a lot currently, the need for the ball to go wide, struggling to find the pivot and break lines. 
 

Ball then gets recycled back to the CB and repeat the other side (around the dish) 

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

In fairness was using it in a broader view than specifically Saturday. 

I think what the first two pictures show is something we see a lot currently, the need for the ball to go wide, struggling to find the pivot and break lines. 
 

Ball then gets recycled back to the CB and repeat the other side (around the dish) 

Yeah.

FWIW, I don’t think many teams come to AG and park the bus.  With our home record, I reckon a lot teams fancy coming here and getting something.

[Bristol Oil Services]

I think Twine was going to come on when we were 3:0 but ......

[Natchfever]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah.

FWIW, I don’t think many teams come to AG and park the bus.  With our home record, I reckon a lot teams fancy coming here and getting something.

They grew into the game imo Dave I thought they were for the taking early on.

Id be proud of them if I was a Rs fan

 

[Baldyman]

MCcrorie was clearly hacked off with the performance of his team mates during the game and looked oddly angry for a player who has only just come into the side . Was also visibly annoyed with being subbed . His level of frustration yesterday just struck me as odd and with the whole team seeming totally distracted you wonder if something has blown up behind the scenes ? Pure conjecture I know but yesterday was an inexplicably odd performance from almost the entire squad . 

[Bs4Red]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah.

FWIW, I don’t think many teams come to AG and park the bus.  With our home record, I reckon a lot teams fancy coming here and getting something.

In fairness I don’t think I said park the bus, we are not good enough for that