Manning and the Academy - does he buy into the club philosophy?

[Silvio Dante]

18 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Results aren't the problem. Performances are.

Ish. I think in the prior run of 4 league games you could broadly say it was 50:50 good performances (90 vs Soton, 45 vs Cov/Boro) vs poor performances (the rest). Yesterday was totally unacceptable and it’s part of a reasonable list of the same (Brum, Millwall, Preston). We did look to be on a rough uptick but yesterday put paid to that

10 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Re your first line. It was Tinnion that said, last summer, that there are even better prospects coming through than those we have already seen.

I think we have to acknowledge Tinnion is a bullshitter who doesn’t know his arse from his elbow and the sooner he leaves the better

2 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

I've no idea, but doubt any of them would have been worse than yesterday's pathway blocker. Manning backed 'his man' yesterday ahead of academy players and it backfired big time.

I actually don’t have too much of a problem with DM being in ahead of say Yeboah in isolation - we know what EY can do, and we need to understand what DM can. My issue on DM is twofold - it was totally the wrong sub, and looking deeper, he seems to have not performed in Belgium which is a lower level. He seems an expensive punt who I’d be shocked if we saw again.

On the broader point, as I said, there is no evidence Liam trusts academy players or uses academy from history to date. Other than the one JKL cameo, those who have played are established first teamers on his arrival (playing Vyner as an indication he trusts or can trust the academy is nonsense). It is wholly possible there aren’t players coming through. But we have a virtual pre season now. We ain’t going up, we ain’t going down. If the likes of Jamie -Knight-Lebel or even Jed Meerholz - or even Murphy - are any good then now is the time to integrate them and give decent minutes (re Murphy the LOI restarted so he should have done his “pre season”).
 

If LM doesn’t then I think it can be reasonably inferred that he doesn’t trust the academy. After all, if you’re not going anywhere and you’re releasing him, why put King (for example) on the bench?

NB - sorry for multiple quotes - you brought up all the points I wanted to cover!

[Dr Balls]

12 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

Yes coming through mate, that could be U14,U16,U18.

Doesn’t mean they are ready available right now. Throwing them in because we want to show our “pathway” would be detrimental for their development. 
Being apart of first team squads and training is exactly what these lads need to get a taste for it and push them on. 
As I said watching the 21s, I wouldn’t say there are any players right now who are readily available or better than the current squad. 

People on here slating Mebude is utterly embarrassing, a young player coming on for 30 mins in a side that was clearly not at it. 
 

You’re telling me that one of our academy lads would have come on and changed the game. People see what they want to see and can spin it anyway they want. 
 

Bottom line is, LM sees these lads every day, you think he would actively snub a young player if they were better than what we have? Seems extremely far fetched to me. 
 

People always so quick to jump on the band wagon because they’re still crying about who’s in charge. The same people after Saints saying how good we are and play offs are still a possibility. 
 

 

Does Manning really see the age groups every day? My understanding is that he is “Head Coach” of the men’s first team. Not quite the same as a manager overseeing the whole club, which is what we had previously. 

[Capman]

1 minute ago, Bs4Red said:

I honestly wish people would stop using Max, Pring and Vyner as “young players” they are 27,26 and 26. 
 

They have all been on loans and worked hard to get where they are but they were not plucked out the academy by NP and they are not young players. 
 

Their experience at this level isn’t huge but they have been professional footballers for a long time with plenty of games in the EFL. 

True, the question is why have they suddenly ‘made the grade’ in the last couple of years. Something has enabled them to significantly reduce the issues they were having before and turned them into first team regulars. The track record is pretty clear that the previous regime had that management and coaching skill. It is a genuine question if that remains or if it has been lost in the transition. 
I actually think Pearson’s man management skills were demonstrated just as well in dealing with the older players. His willingness not to play those who he thought had ‘let the side down’ particularly springs to mind. His focussed determination to make sure players understood what was expected should be a model for any manager. I am not sure the new regime has that and it will make the path for any player to move from the academy to the first team significantly more difficult.

[Bs4Red]

4 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Does Manning really see the age groups every day? My understanding is that he is “Head Coach” of the men’s first team. Not quite the same as a manager overseeing the whole club, which is what we had previously. 

No he wouldn’t see them directly unless they come to train with 1st team but he would be updated regularly and have meetings around progress of each player and naturally would pass on what he’s looking for in terms of players ready to step up etc.  

[Bs4Red]

4 minutes ago, Capman said:

True, the question is why have they suddenly ‘made the grade’ in the last couple of years. Something has enabled them to significantly reduce the issues they were having before and turned them into first team regulars. The track record is pretty clear that the previous regime had that management and coaching skill. It is a genuine question if that remains or if it has been lost in the transition. 
I actually think Pearson’s man management skills were demonstrated just as well in dealing with the older players. His willingness not to play those who he thought had ‘let the side down’ particularly springs to mind. His focussed determination to make sure players understood what was expected should be a model for any manager. I am not sure the new regime has that and it will make the path for any player to move from the academy to the first team significantly more difficult.

Obviously the loans helped them, first team football at men’s level is always going to be more beneficial than playing 21s football. 
 

You could say they’ve also been extremely lucky (Vyner and Max) if we are really honest they did well to survive that first season but clearly have come on for that. 
 

Not disputing NP made them better players but I guess he had no choice at the time and likely given the opportunity at the time would probably have liked to replace them with better players. 
 

I think in terms of link to the pathway now you have to give LM a little bit of time. Think it always comes down to a bit of luck and timing with these things too. You’re not going to have 1/2/3 players every year come out the academy and be a star. 
 

 

[TomSutton]

It’s the U18 crop that are a fantastic group (ahead of their age). This doesn’t mean they would currently be anywhere near the level required technically and physically for Champ football just means they are ahead of where is targeted relative to them.

 

They are only 17/18 so I wouldn’t expect so see the majority of them until the 25/26 season where they would be in their late teens and then featuring more heavily in first team.

[alexukhc]

How many games is it now we’ve featured players from the academy? 

[Silvio Dante]

27 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

How many games is it now we’ve featured players from the academy? 

As Max is academy and Zak is academy pretty much all in the last few years.

Your broader question is when does an academy player stop being counted as an “academy player” and be counted as a “first team” player. Realistically we could say that Louis Carey gave us 646 academy appearances, but nobody would have said when he was lining up at centre back with a full beard that we were blooding someone from the academy!

 

[LondonBristolian]

To play Devil's advocate, Manning took over mid-season and it's not that often an academy product breaks in mid-season having not been around in pre-season.

I agree there are concerning signs - Yeboah being back with the under-18s, the bench not always being complete and the reported smaller first team training group - but you could argue that's a difference in philosophy rather than intent. Manning could feel it's a false reward to put players on the bench if they're  not ready and want players to feel they have to earn a first-team training place. And you could argue that, whilst there are promising talents, the ones that Pearson saw as first-team ready were already in the squad such as Conway and Bell. 

I don't agree with the suggestion that buying young players directly means an intent to not use the academy and were tracking Murphy before Manning joined in any case. But I think, as with so many things with Manning, we're not really going to have a clear sense of the situation until the summer. Does Palmer-Houlden get integrated in the first team? Will Duncan or Casa-Grande get closer to being second or third choice? Can one of Knight-Lebel, Araoye or Leeson kick on within the squad? Can Taylor-Clarke get back on track or someone like Backwell get a breakthrough? Once we get to the beginning of next season, it'll be a lot easier to say for sure if young players are getting chances. 

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

I've no idea, but doubt any of them would have been worse than yesterday's pathway blocker. Manning backed 'his man' yesterday ahead of academy players and it backfired big time.

So you’ve got no idea, and all you can do is ‘doubt’, yet you still feel able to assert that pathways for better prospects from our academy are being blocked?

Tinnion was quite likely talking about 14, 15 year olds who are nowhere near the first team squad. There seems a pretty general consent that there’s no-one in the U21s or even U18s at present who was overlooked yesterday.

So I’m not really sure what it is you want, other than the opportunity to have a moan about the club and about Manning. 

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, alexukhc said:

How many games is it now we’ve featured players from the academy? 

Well some still feature, for sure.

But the real point is that you can’t simply measure it by pure numbers at any one time. The academy isn’t a conveyor belt that produces one Alex Scott and one Antoine Semenyo every year.

If there were a 17 year old with the ability of Scott, or a 19 year old with the ability of Semenyo then they’d be getting games, I’ve little doubt.

But there ain’t.

And you don’t play academy players purely for the sake of it, regardless of their ability or readiness. Not if you’re aiming for ‘top end’ anyway. 

[Sir Geoff]

9 minutes ago, italian dave said:

So you’ve got no idea, and all you can do is ‘doubt’, yet you still feel able to assert that pathways for better prospects from our academy are being blocked?

Tinnion was quite likely talking about 14, 15 year olds who are nowhere near the first team squad. There seems a pretty general consent that there’s no-one in the U21s or even U18s at present who was overlooked yesterday.

So I’m not really sure what it is you want, other than the opportunity to have a moan about the club and about Manning. 

So we disagree that Mbude took minutes and blocked the pathway for Yeboah. Fine. If you think I'm moaning about the club for this 'strange' signing, you would be correct.

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, Bs4Red said:

I honestly wish people would stop using Max, Pring and Vyner as “young players” they are 27,26 and 26. 
 

They have all been on loans and worked hard to get where they are but they were not plucked out the academy by NP and they are not young players. 
 

Their experience at this level isn’t huge but they have been professional footballers for a long time with plenty of games in the EFL. 

Can you tell me who he blocked from the pathway yesterday, that you’ve seen who would have made more of a difference? 

True, but I think the point is that they have come through the academy to get where they are. The OP suggested that we’ve been blocking paths for a decade or more. Vyner, for example, played his first 30 odd games for the club under LJ. 

If theyre good enough I don’t see paths being blocked, not by LM, not by NP, not by LJ. It’s just that we don’t produce a Scott or a Semenyo (or a Vyner) every year.

And hence why you’re last question is spot on for me. 

[Natchfever]

11 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

Given that our Head of Football has been so linked with its development, and that the club philosophy apparently remains developing young players through the Academy, who we can then potentially sell on for a profit, (a necessity given FFP) does anyone else share my feeling that despite what is being said publicly, Manning won’t play or develop anywhere near as many Academy players in the first team as was the case under Pearson?

Just another LJ vibe from Manning, which may reflect the difference in approach and confidence between an extremely experienced and previously successful manager, with limited resources, and a relatively inexperienced head coach, who has achieved nothing tangible so far in their career. Part of the current success of the Academy and its recruitment is that young players and their families can see that there has been a pathway to the first team, but if that is disrupted then that confidence may not last, which in itself may threaten the club’s financial model.

Maybe there isnt anyone considered good enough currently?

Tinnion has a new role now so might not give a shit about promoting the academy as he will be kept well away from the financials.

[italian dave]

5 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

So we disagree that Mbude took minutes and blocked the pathway for Yeboah. Fine. If you think I'm moaning about the club for this 'strange' signing, you would be correct.

Well, if you seriously think that Yeboah would have been on the bench yesterday had Mebude not been there, or that Yeboah’s progress has been hindered by Mebude’s arrival, then yes, we disagree. Although, judging by comments on this thread and others, I think you’re in a fairly small minority.

But the point of this thread isn’t just Mebude. Theres another thread for posters wanting to moan about him (). This is about the bigger picture. And my default is to believe that LM - like his predecessors - wants the academy to work and wants to encourage players to come through it. Your default seems to be the opposite. 

[Alessandro]

I’m not ready to criticise Manning for blooding or not blooding youngsters yet - far too early to say. We will probably have to reflect on that in at least a years time. 

One thing that is a fact - the necessity for NP to bloody so many academy prospects has meant we’ve seen so many come through, yes - but…..

Where has it got us? If we’re going to achieve our goal of promotion, the academy has to be one cog in the machine, not what we rely on:

We’re still at a hit rate of about 1 a season max that could be sold for good money to the prem and about 1 to 2 players a season max looking like they could be a consistent part of a top 6 team.

So although we’re ‘producing’ players in the academy…it’s still a case of they’ve got to be good enough for a top championship challenge eventually. I don’t want us to simply become a nursery for young players who ‘get a game’ while we remain mid table at best in the champ only for the best of them to be sold and the worst released.

I think we’re still some years off the academy providing the first team with 3,4 or even 5 players with the potential of the likes of Pring, Conway and Scott etc over a shorter period of time than 3, 4 or 5 season time span. 

[Graham76]

Yesterday Twine and Mebude, clearly both nowhere near ready, but seen as better option than our academy players. 

Edited February 18 by Graham76

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, Lrrr said:

NP had to play academy players or at least have them on the bench due to a combination of injuries & a lack of investment in recruiting players.

what do people on here want from Manning, try and finish the season in as high a position as possible or to blood young players? If he played young players at the expense of results people would moan. Can’t have it both ways as a fan base, either people want Manning to do his best to deliver results and accept less mins for young players or give him a break on results if it means young players getting game time. 

Squad building is an art, a tough balance.

I’m not gonna worry too much at this point, but I will be looking for direction of travel.  Why?  Because pre-Pearson once we’d got rid of Bryan, Reid and Kelly, we became one dimensional - buy to sell - rather than buy to sell and develop to sell.  And imho we were far from a success at it and it set us back years.

Now, if the young players aren’t coming through, what do you do?

But you have leave some space in case they do, especially under a financial model that is gonna get less funding from the owner, because your “big profit” inevitably comes from selling academy players, so you have to have an environment that brings them on.  We’ve only really had 4 successful player sales outside of the academy in 10 years. Kodjia, Flint, Webster and Brownhill.  Kinda pales into insignificance against the money spent!

2 hours ago, TomSutton said:

It’s the U18 crop that are a fantastic group (ahead of their age). This doesn’t mean they would currently be anywhere near the level required technically and physically for Champ football just means they are ahead of where is targeted relative to them.

 

They are only 17/18 so I wouldn’t expect so see the majority of them until the 25/26 season where they would be in their late teens and then featuring more heavily in first team.

The Fleetwood u18s of the Alex Scott year was very impressive.  Only one player went on to do well, and that was Cian Hayes, who only played at Lg1!

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

So you’ve got no idea, and all you can do is ‘doubt’, yet you still feel able to assert that pathways for better prospects from our academy are being blocked?

Tinnion was quite likely talking about 14, 15 year olds who are nowhere near the first team squad. There seems a pretty general consent that there’s no-one in the U21s or even U18s at present who was overlooked yesterday.

So I’m not really sure what it is you want, other than the opportunity to have a moan about the club and about Manning. 

In his (repeated claims) over the last 2 years or so , when talking about Antoine , Alex , Sam and Tommy , about the ‘next lot’ ‘are even better’

At no point did I get the impression he was talking about 14/15 year olds or players at U18 level , although the reality appears to be that is the situation 

[italian dave]

10 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

In his (repeated claims) over the last 2 years or so , when talking about Antoine , Alex , Sam and Tommy , about the ‘next lot’ ‘are even better’

At no point did I get the impression he was talking about 14/15 year olds or players at U18 level , although the reality appears to be that is the situation 

Indeed: and I don’t claim to be any more in the know than anyone else!

I’m just not going to leap to the conclusion that Tinnion’s judgement is wrong just because we haven’t yet seen another Scott. Or that Manning isn’t committed to the academy just because he’s signed Mebude and given him 45 minutes. 

[italian dave]

32 minutes ago, Graham76 said:

Yesterday Twine and Mebude, clearly both nowhere near ready, but seen as better option than our academy players. 

And maybe that’s just a reflection of where we are right now.

Doesn't mean the academy hasn’t produced players (look at the squad yesterday) or that it won’t do so in future. 

[Hamdon Mart]

It looked a little bit confused at the triple substitution yesterday from my vantage point.

I'm not 100% sure Mebude was originally planned to come on at 57 min; Gardner-Hickman was stripped and ready to go for Williams while DM and Conway were warming up along the sideline. Then the latter two were called in, there seemed to be a bit of a rush to get them all on together and bang, it was three on and three off. Mehmeti looked a little baffled when his number was held up too, just something odd about the whole couple of minutes

Think it's also a valid point to say there were experienced pro's out there that had stinkers too. The passing was atrocious in the second half particularly and piling in on a teenage loan signing who had a poor half hour doesn't seem to be very supportive. And for those saying his signing was an expensive mistake, surely City don't HAVE to buy him, isn't it an option to buy? 

[Beni71]

4 hours ago, Lrrr said:

NP had to play academy players or at least have them on the bench due to a combination of injuries & a lack of investment in recruiting players.

what do people on here want from Manning, try and finish the season in as high a position as possible or to blood young players? If he played young players at the expense of results people would moan. Can’t have it both ways as a fan base, either people want Manning to do his best to deliver results and accept less mins for young players or give him a break on results if it means young players getting game time. 

Blood younger players. We aren’t going up or down. Given Bell is likely to be out for the season I think Yeboah has the raw pace and physique to add something different to what we now have. 
 

If he chooses not to blood younger players I’m expecting results given the squad he has inherited and culture/moral wise it’s as good as it’s been for four years plus.