Manning and the Academy - does he buy into the club philosophy?

[Dr Balls]

Given that our Head of Football has been so linked with its development, and that the club philosophy apparently remains developing young players through the Academy, who we can then potentially sell on for a profit, (a necessity given FFP) does anyone else share my feeling that despite what is being said publicly, Manning won’t play or develop anywhere near as many Academy players in the first team as was the case under Pearson?

Just another LJ vibe from Manning, which may reflect the difference in approach and confidence between an extremely experienced and previously successful manager, with limited resources, and a relatively inexperienced head coach, who has achieved nothing tangible so far in their career. Part of the current success of the Academy and its recruitment is that young players and their families can see that there has been a pathway to the first team, but if that is disrupted then that confidence may not last, which in itself may threaten the club’s financial model.

[Back of the Dolman]

37 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Given that our Head of Football has been so linked with its development, and that the club philosophy apparently remains developing young players through the Academy, who we can then potentially sell on for a profit, (a necessity given FFP) does anyone else share my feeling that despite what is being said publicly, Manning won’t play or develop anywhere near as many Academy players in the first team as was the case under Pearson?

Just another LJ vibe from Manning, which may reflect the difference in approach and confidence between an extremely experienced and previously successful manager, with limited resources, and a relatively inexperienced head coach, who has achieved nothing tangible so far in their career. Part of the current success of the Academy and its recruitment is that young players and their families can see that there has been a pathway to the first team, but if that is disrupted then that confidence may not last, which in itself may threaten the club’s financial model.

And as has been said on many other threads, if he doesn’t buy into that.

And I’m not saying he doesn’t but obviously that is your feeling then why was he appointed ???

Did he just say what they wanted to hear in his interview or is it a case that at the moment he doesn’t believe there is anyone currently in the academy worth of first team action.

That would though go against the previous posts we saw where Pearson was being questioned over his use of experienced Andy King when somebody high up was claiming we had academy players that should be used instead.

 

[Superjack]

6 minutes ago, Back of the Dolman said:

And as has been said on many other threads, if he doesn’t buy into that.

And I’m not saying he doesn’t but obviously that is your feeling then why was he appointed ???

Did he just say what they wanted to hear in his interview or is it a case that at the moment he doesn’t believe there is anyone currently in the academy worth of first team action.

That would though go against the previous posts we saw where Pearson was being questioned over his use of experienced Andy King when somebody high up was claiming we had academy players that should be used instead.

 

Did he even have an interview? Or did they just hand the job to the best available coach in League One because they wanted the previous incumbent gone?

[Sir Geoff]

Seeing that in the last transfer window we bought 2 young players from The Irish league and Division 5 and loaned a 19 Yr old pathway blocker from Belgium, it would seem that no, he doesn't buy in to our academy.

[westonred]

Spot on OP,  NP blooded more Academy players than LM (yes i know he was there for longer) but take Yeboah who was a squad regular under NP he doesnt get a look-in under LM (some on here say that he has an atitude problem that's why he now plays for the unders 18's). Well surely it's Manning job to sit the lad down and work through it not demote him down to the 18's what message does that send to the young uns "NP would play us LM wont ?"

Lets also be fair if you were an academy player not getting in the squad because a below average player like Mebude has been brought in you would be pretty gutted. Just because the lad once wore a Man city shirt and had a holiday in Belgium doesnt mean he is anyway better than what we have in reserve

[Lrrr]

NP had to play academy players or at least have them on the bench due to a combination of injuries & a lack of investment in recruiting players.

what do people on here want from Manning, try and finish the season in as high a position as possible or to blood young players? If he played young players at the expense of results people would moan. Can’t have it both ways as a fan base, either people want Manning to do his best to deliver results and accept less mins for young players or give him a break on results if it means young players getting game time. 

[Dr Balls]

21 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Seeing that in the last transfer window we bought 2 young players from The Irish league and Division 5 and loaned a 19 Yr old pathway blocker from Belgium, it would seem that no, he doesn't buy in to our academy.

So an interesting case to test this will be Seb Palmer-Houlden. By this summer, he will have had a whole season at Newport and has garnered pretty good reviews as a 19 year old playing a role up front that we currently lack - a powerful centre forward who other forwards can play off. If he wasn’t already on the club’s books, he is just the type of player that many of us might imagine that the club would look to acquire given our current lack of a Plan B. 
 

 

[robinforlife2]

Not sure I buy into this. When Yeboah was playing, most people were saying, he wasn't ready, he needed a loan etc.

Manning has signed two young players in January. There are many routes to progression, it doesn't mean, just chucking every player in at the deep end. 

Pearson on occasion because of injuries, had no choice but to thrust a number of youngsters in to the fold, so I wouldn't be so quick to praise this is giving lads progression, we literally had no choice. Now we are near to full strength again, it's going to be harder for these players to get game time, but doesn't mean they are miles off.

I'm sure 1/2 will filter through each season, but it's worth considering if we are buying 17/18 year olds who are potentially first team players in time, and they go in the U18s or U23s for a year, In many ways these are still academy progressions. 

Manning just wants to use the best players he has available. I am sure when our season is over, 2/3 of those close to the first team will get game time, but there's nothing to suggest that Manning doesn't buy into the thesis of the powers that be, it's just people over thinking and trying to make something out of nothing. 

[Dr Balls]

4 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

NP had to play academy players or at least have them on the bench due to a combination of injuries & a lack of investment in recruiting players.

what do people on here want from Manning, try and finish the season in as high a position as possible or to blood young players? If he played young players at the expense of results people would moan. Can’t have it both ways as a fan base, either people want Manning to do his best to deliver results and accept less mins for young players or give him a break on results if it means young players getting game time. 

I don’t think it’s an issue of the fan base wanting one or the other. It’s just that developing and playing young players, particularly from the Academy, is vital to the club’s current financial model. If the club have then brought in a Head Coach who doesn’t buy into the Academy and the lads there then it may have a problem. 

[Silvio Dante]

I’ve made this point a few times but in the context of this conversation it’s worth looking at LMs record at Oxford and MK Dons. If you seek out his appointment presser at Oxford re academy he said exactly the same things as he did here re looking there first etc etc.

And across both jobs he brought through a total of zero academy players.

As ever, correlation does not mean causation. He may have wanted to look to the academy first but didn’t have the quality at either club - but at some point it becomes a pattern and you realise that, no matter what he says, his philosophy may not be academy development. Hes now been managing for three seasons so it’s a reasonable sample size.

Add in that he reduced the first team group markedly for training and it’s not difficult to draw conclusions.

[And Its Smith]

41 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Seeing that in the last transfer window we bought 2 young players from The Irish league and Division 5 and loaned a 19 Yr old pathway blocker from Belgium, it would seem that no, he doesn't buy in to our academy.

We started watching them and wanting them before Manning came in. Club signings.  

[ExiledAjax]

3 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

I don’t think it’s an issue of the fan base wanting one or the other. It’s just that developing and playing young players, particularly from the Academy, is vital to the club’s current financial model. If the club have then brought in a Head Coach who doesn’t buy into the Academy and the lads there then it may have a problem. 

He literally gave Knight-Lebel about an hour against a Premier League team in an FA Cup replay that had a massive home game against Man Utd on the line.

He regularly uses Vyner, O'Leary, Conway, Bell and Pring. He may not be the man who oversaw their transition from academy to first team, but they are clear evidence to him that the academy can produce players who are fit for the first team of a Championship team.

Also, Tinnion, who for obvious reasons loves the academy, is as much involved (if not more involved) in bringing in the "pathway blockers" as the head coach is. I don't see Tinnion maliciously bringing in people simply to "block the pathway".

[italian dave]

I think there’s a danger that “why don’t we use academy players?” Becomes a bit like the “why didn’t we sign a 20 goal striker in January?” question. It’s not that simple, and it depends on the right players and on good enough players being available.

I don’t see any evidence that any of our managers of the past decade haven’t bought into the academy, and from Bryan to Kelly to Reid to Semenyo to Scott to Vyner we’ve brought players through if they’re good enough. And I’m struggling to think of anyone who’s “pathway” we’ve blocked who’s gone on to prove themselves at Championship level.

I don’t watch the U21s, U18s, so others may speak with more authority than me, but friend who do watch them tell me that there is no-one there at the moment who stands out as either a Scott of the future or as someone we should be giving first team game time to.

It’s too early to judge LM, but the fact that (again, I’m told) we are now getting all the sides in our pyramid to play the same style and with the same philosophy is surely an indication that we’re trying to make it work. I’m told that hasn’t always been the case. And I was also going to make exactly the point @robinforlife2 makes above about bringing in almost ‘almost finished articles’ from elsewhere when we haven’t got them ourselves.

I think if there was a difference between NP and his predecessor and successor (I’m ignoring Holden in this!) it’s about expectations. When the expectations are principally about saving money and just staying in the Championship then giving young players a chance is a lot less risky than when expectations are top 6 (which they clearly were for LJ) or top end - whatever that means! - as they are for Manning.

[italian dave]

21 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

I don’t think it’s an issue of the fan base wanting one or the other. It’s just that developing and playing young players, particularly from the Academy, is vital to the club’s current financial model. If the club have then brought in a Head Coach who doesn’t buy into the Academy and the lads there then it may have a problem. 

I know you’ve posed this as a question, but your posts clearly suggest you think LM doesn’t ’buy in’. Or, at least, that there are reasons to have that concern.

What are those reasons? Why do you think he doesn’t or may not buy in? 

[David Brent]

32 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

NP had to play academy players or at least have them on the bench due to a combination of injuries & a lack of investment in recruiting players.

what do people on here want from Manning, try and finish the season in as high a position as possible or to blood young players? If he played young players at the expense of results people would moan. Can’t have it both ways as a fan base, either people want Manning to do his best to deliver results and accept less mins for young players or give him a break on results if it means young players getting game time. 

I get that Manning has been instructed to get as many points as possible, presumably, so he’d be less inclined to blood youngsters. Mr Pearson deserves a lot more credit than you give him though. He gave opportunities to young players when he didn’t have to..and kept us competitive.

I believe it’s been pointed out before that Manning doesn’t have a great record at MK Dons or Oxford for bringing academy players through. 

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

When the expectations are principally about saving money and just staying in the Championship then giving young players a chance is a lot less risky than when expectations are top 6

It's basically expected in the money saving austerity mode that we were in. You have to use the cheap options.

People also forget that Semenyo, Scott, Pring as well, all joined our academy late, as teenagers. Semenyo was 17 I think? Scott and Pring maybe 16? Not old men, but it's very different to Bryan and Vyner. 

Edited February 18 by ExiledAjax

[Grey Fox]

Of course he buys in to the get them in young and cheap, and then flog them off at the first opportunity model, he’ s part of it himself. A young Coach, with potential, who we can get loads of compensation when he moves on up.

[Bs4Red]

This is laughable. Who is ready and good enough in the academy to come in? 
People commenting who have probably never been to watch the 21s, because if you have you’d know they are not at the required level yet. 
NP had no choice but to use Yeboah and quite clearly he wasn’t ready. 
LM using some of these lads on the bench and integrating them in the first team via being around the team on a match day and training is still a way to blood them. 

Lose one game and all of a sudden Manning has no clue about anything, the bloke literally watches these players and gets updated every day. 
 

Give the bloke a break, only reason his predecessor has to use academy players who were not ready was his own doing by not using the loan market. 

[1960maaan]

If someone is good enough and playing well enough to be given a start, we will see. But there is no point in just throwing the kids in for shits and giggles. 
Yeboah hadn't done enough for force his way in, just getting games because there was no one else isn't reason enough. We were bound to have a quiet period after Scott , Pring , Conway, Bell even Semenyo in recent years.

Also, for the first time in ages we can fill the bench with first team players .  Nige would not have a load of young kids on the bench at the expense of  Cornick , TGH , Sykes and the rest so you can't judge Manning by that. When someone is good enough from the U21s , then we will judge. 
 

[Sir Geoff]

52 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

NP had to play academy players or at least have them on the bench due to a combination of injuries & a lack of investment in recruiting players.

what do people on here want from Manning, try and finish the season in as high a position as possible or to blood young players? If he played young players at the expense of results people would moan. Can’t have it both ways as a fan base, either people want Manning to do his best to deliver results and accept less mins for young players or give him a break on results if it means young players getting game time. 

Results aren't the problem. Performances are.

[italian dave]

5 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Results aren't the problem. Performances are.

I’d say consistency rather than either.

6 of the last 9 I’d argue were good results and decent performances.

Yesterday was poor on both counts. Likewise Leeds (although in fairness Leeds are currently making most teams look poor). And Watford was iffy.

Edited February 18 by italian dave

[formerly known as ivan]

11 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

This is laughable. Who is ready and good enough in the academy to come in? 
People commenting who have probably never been to watch the 21s, because if you have you’d know they are not at the required level yet. 
NP had no choice but to use Yeboah and quite clearly he wasn’t ready. 
LM using some of these lads on the bench and integrating them in the first team via being around the team on a match day and training is still a way to blood them. 

Lose one game and all of a sudden Manning has no clue about anything, the bloke literally watches these players and gets updated every day. 
 

Give the bloke a break, only reason his predecessor has to use academy players who were not ready was his own doing by not using the loan market. 

There is many times I have felt the need to jump to Mannings defence since he arrived but his is one of them and summed up well by yourself.

If we have someone who is good enough they will be given a chance. I’m sure the club made that clear to him when recruiting. The youngsters who joined in January also referenced the pathways to the first team and I don’t think the principles of that have changed in anyway.

[Bristol Oil Services]

I think it has dawned on Steve that this pathway is working rather well for his players - nowhere > City > Bournemouth - but not so well for himself/his team/his prospects for hawking his team/Bristol Sports, so he's tweaked the "philosophy" and is buying a stair lift to heaven Bournemouth  the Premier League, and not messing around anymore. He's running out of time, and as the lad in Grev Smythe park after (I think Walsall at home in the play offs in '88) said to Bob Crampton on HTV: "We don't wanna mess around, we wanna go up" as chaos and police rained about them.

Tbf to that lad, we been messing about long enough now

[Sir Geoff]

13 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

This is laughable. Who is ready and good enough in the academy to come in? 
People commenting who have probably never been to watch the 21s, because if you have you’d know they are not at the required level yet. 
NP had no choice but to use Yeboah and quite clearly he wasn’t ready. 
LM using some of these lads on the bench and integrating them in the first team via being around the team on a match day and training is still a way to blood them. 

Lose one game and all of a sudden Manning has no clue about anything, the bloke literally watches these players and gets updated every day. 
 

Give the bloke a break, only reason his predecessor has to use academy players who were not ready was his own doing by not using the loan market. 

Re your first line. It was Tinnion that said, last summer, that there are even better prospects coming through than those we have already seen.

[italian dave]

1 minute ago, Sir Geoff said:

Re your first line. It was Tinnion that said, last summer, that there are even better prospects coming through than those we have already seen.

And maybe there are. But what level was he talking about? 

[Capman]

For me the question is not so much about belief but the skill needed to manage people. Manning is unfortunate because he permanently gets compared to a very experienced and successful predecessor. For me Pearson’s clarity and judgement are some of his most important qualities. I think the way he managed players (young and old) was exceptional. He appeared to ‘know’ when new talent needed time on the field, and when they needed time on the bench. He could judge when to give praise and when to criticise. He also understood what young players needed in terms of experience and support on the pitch. It would have been very easy for Pearson to lose patience with Vyner, Pring and Max. But he picked the right moment to back them and I suspect that is a large factor in their ultimate transition. It’s early days yet to judge Manning, but so far I don’t see the clarity of thought needed to do the same on a regular basis. Hopefully it will be shown over time that he does have the skill.

 

[Bs4Red]

1 minute ago, Sir Geoff said:

Re your first line. It was Tinnion that said, last summer, that there are even better prospects coming through than those we have already seen.

Yes coming through mate, that could be U14,U16,U18.

Doesn’t mean they are ready available right now. Throwing them in because we want to show our “pathway” would be detrimental for their development. 
Being apart of first team squads and training is exactly what these lads need to get a taste for it and push them on. 
As I said watching the 21s, I wouldn’t say there are any players right now who are readily available or better than the current squad. 

People on here slating Mebude is utterly embarrassing, a young player coming on for 30 mins in a side that was clearly not at it. 
 

You’re telling me that one of our academy lads would have come on and changed the game. People see what they want to see and can spin it anyway they want. 
 

Bottom line is, LM sees these lads every day, you think he would actively snub a young player if they were better than what we have? Seems extremely far fetched to me. 
 

People always so quick to jump on the band wagon because they’re still crying about who’s in charge. The same people after Saints saying how good we are and play offs are still a possibility. 
 

 

[Sir Geoff]

4 minutes ago, italian dave said:

And maybe there are. But what level was he talking about? 

I've no idea, but doubt any of them would have been worse than yesterday's pathway blocker. Manning backed 'his man' yesterday ahead of academy players and it backfired big time.

[Bs4Red]

3 minutes ago, Capman said:

For me the question is not so much about belief but the skill needed to manage people. Manning is unfortunate because he permanently gets compared to a very experienced and successful predecessor. For me Pearson’s clarity and judgement are some of his most important qualities. I think the way he managed players (young and old) was exceptional. He appeared to ‘know’ when new talent needed time on the field, and when they needed time on the bench. He could judge when to give praise and when to criticise. He also understood what young players needed in terms of experience and support on the pitch. It would have been very easy for Pearson to lose patience with Vyner, Pring and Max. But he picked the right moment to back them and I suspect that is a large factor in their ultimate transition. It’s early days yet to judge Manning, but so far I don’t see the clarity of thought needed to do the same on a regular basis. Hopefully it will be shown over time that he does have the skill.

 

I honestly wish people would stop using Max, Pring and Vyner as “young players” they are 27,26 and 26. 
 

They have all been on loans and worked hard to get where they are but they were not plucked out the academy by NP and they are not young players. 
 

Their experience at this level isn’t huge but they have been professional footballers for a long time with plenty of games in the EFL. 

3 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

I've no idea, but doubt any of them would have been worse than yesterday's pathway blocker. Manning backed 'his man' yesterday ahead of academy players and it backfired big time.

Can you tell me who he blocked from the pathway yesterday, that you’ve seen who would have made more of a difference? 

[Sir Geoff]

8 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

I honestly wish people would stop using Max, Pring and Vyner as “young players” they are 27,26 and 26. 
 

They have all been on loans and worked hard to get where they are but they were not plucked out the academy by NP and they are not young players. 
 

Their experience at this level isn’t huge but they have been professional footballers for a long time with plenty of games in the EFL. 

Can you tell me who he blocked from the pathway yesterday, that you’ve seen who would have made more of a difference? 

Not saying any of them would have made a difference, just saying they couldn't have been worse. I guess Yeboah would not have been as bad but his minutes were blocked by Mannings signing.