So, Where are we with Liam

[Red-Robbo]

7 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Neither were Coventry and Luton, both got to the play off final tho with Luton going up. 

I think people took the top 6 quote quite literally when it was more along the lines of with the right manager they believed this squad could get top 6 and I think I would agree with that. 

Exactly right.

And possibly correct as a statement. Gary Johnson may have lost it at Torquay, but at the Gate and in his prime he showed that an average ability squad, with a little luck and careful shepherding, can make the play-off final. 

The tragedy of us currently is not that Liam Manning is learning his trade at our expense and we are paying for his mistakes and misfires: it's that the entire situation was just so avoidable. It was an unnecessary throw of the dice. A gamble that right now looks very foolish. 

[RedM]

16 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Neither have I - I don’t see the point of these polls. What difference do they make…….….

 

Just a bit of fun really I guess. I rarely vote but am interested in viewing the results to some extent.

[Sir Geoff]

26 minutes ago, CityCiderEd said:

Seriously hoping we don't turn into a 'Watford' type club.....it really doesn't work. 

Multiple promotions, FA cup final. That would be terrible.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Yeah I think that’s reasonsable. I’m saying until the summer currently as that is the “natural” break point but equally think that if we continue as we are for (say) the next 8 games then even a barnstorming last 4 won’t make the difference so agree you go earlier.

If I was pushed to decide now, I’d get rid. In realistic terms I think he probably needs a consistent upswing (not results but on all the things we’ve all been discussing) in the next five games, which are all difficult in their own way. Either way the time is running out IMO.

I'm willing to give it longer, I'm even willing to give home the summer. I don't really see anyone being truly capable of getting this set of players to where we want them without additions. I never thought the last manager would do it, I don't think Klopp would do it, I don't think Mowbray would do it. That's my opinion and it's not what everyone else thinks.

The good stuff I've seen so far has been good enough that I'm up for trying to get that consistently rather than switching again, to another coaching team and another style, and having a third consecutive transfer window under a third consecutive different coaching strategy.

So I voted with your last option. I don't really expect a top 6 challenge next season, but as I say, I can't really ever seeing that as being a reasonable expectation under the current finances, ownership, football eco system etc (a wider conversation there).

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, RedM said:

Just a bit of fun really I guess. I rarely vote but am interested in viewing the results to some extent.

The results of this particular poll will be reactionary to the last two crap performances.

[One Team]

8 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Comes over as I'm clever, you are not. Feels a bit like Tinnion's "look into my eyes" moment. Take some responsibility man. I suspect quite a few of the players are seeing through the B.S. now (and I don't mean Bristol Sport!).

I know what you mean, he comes across as having a superiority complex, that he knows best and the players aren’t doing what he wants. Can he have lost the dressing room already?

[Shauntaylor85]

Club won’t sack Manning, even if we lost every remaining game. This guy for some reason will get the Scott windfall to spend when we had a more capable manager in charge already. I was hoping if we sacked Nige we would have gone for a proven coach at this level or Europe, think Manning is just an easy, cheap option which allows our former manager and player to make the decisions. 

Edited February 25 by Shauntaylor85

[Sir Geoff]

30 minutes ago, One Team said:

I know what you mean, he comes across as having a superiority complex, that he knows best and the players aren’t doing what he wants. Can he have lost the dressing room already?

Thought he'd lost the dressing room during the Millwall game tbh. Players arguing with one another, never a good sign.

Edited February 25 by Sir Geoff
Mis spelling

[One Team]

Just now, Sir Geoff said:

Thought he'd list the dressing room during the Millwall game tbh. Players arguing with one another, never a good sign.

Fair point mate!

[One Team]

9 minutes ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Club won’t sack Manning, even if we lost every remaining game. This guy for some reason will get the Scott windfall to spend when we had a more capable manager in charge already. I was hoping if we sacked Nige we would have gone for a proven coach at this level or Europe, think Manning is just an easy, cheap option which allows our former manager and player to make the decisions. 

I’ve said similar elsewhere, I get the impression we could be relegated and they’d stick with him. It will be incredibly toxic at games way before that though so Lansdown may find fan reaction too much not to pull the trigger by close season. Personally I think losing against Cardiff might be enough, and certainly Swansea as well. It was bad enough after the QPR game! 

[The Original OTIB]

12 minutes ago, One Team said:

I know what you mean, he comes across as having a superiority complex, that he knows best and the players aren’t doing what he wants. Can he have lost the dressing room already?

I suspect it is currently at the bewilderment stage. This is a bunch of lads that need simple messages, clear messages and leadership. How long before the LJ line of picking players "I can trust". That's when the wheels truly come off.

[W-S-M Seagull]

11 minutes ago, One Team said:

I know what you mean, he comes across as having a superiority complex, that he knows best and the players aren’t doing what he wants. Can he have lost the dressing room already?

Yesterday really worried me. 

Up until now you could see the players were trying to buy into it all. Were trying to do what he asked. 

But yesterday it was damning because it was very clear the players had lost confidence in the game plan, system or whatever. We actually played more long balls than Wednesday and that's quite telling. 

If you're a Championship players who's had various experiences in football, you're suddenly being told how to be a Championship footballer by someone who never made a single professional appearance. On top of that he then got sacked by MK. I've had my concerns about this since day 1. 

It's just not really going to go down too well is it being someone with so little standing calling players out? 

I think he has started to lose them.

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

I suspect it is currently at the bewilderment stage. This is a bunch of lads that need simple messages, clear messages and leadership. How long before the LJ line of picking players "I can trust". That's when the wheels truly come off.

Think he got close to that yesterday with the "players need to want to learn" 

[JP Hampton]

I want to be able to give LM enough time to see what he can actually do, not wanting to jump up and down on him, given we’ve had a mixed bag so far, but as others have said, my only concern is that if we do either back him with funds or don’t back with funds and in either case see where we are in November, we are going to be writing off yet another season and we’re well into next season, with a new manager, sweeping clean and back to rebuilding once again. 
 We’ll have dismantled by that point, any good NP and his team of staff, did over those two or so, very difficult years. 
 

 So for me on balance, it has to be give him until the end of this season and review. If there’s been a consistent improvement in performance first and results, then it will be reasonable to fund and back him beyond this season. 
 

 It did occur to me and not sure if others have suggested this, but one explanation for the varying performances could be, first of all, with the teams that we’ve played from the Prem, our boys are far more likely to want to perform, they’d be up for the challenge, opportunities to get noticed by top clubs, being televised etc. There’s a definite incentive there and an excitement that cup games bring . That can happen without any need to play for the manager. They’re in effect playing for themselves and each other. 

 However if there is discord and he has lost the dressing room, (only speculation of course), it would then make sense that the drive and spirit that we definitely once had, would wax and very definitely wane in the league. 
 

There’s definitely a despondency among a good few of the players and that doesn’t look to be improving. 
 

He won’t win any dressing room though, by insisting that players have been given the answers, they’re just not capable of translating them into performances. 

Edited February 25 by JP Hampton

[luke_bristol]

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Think he got close to that yesterday with the "players need to want to learn" 

Perhaps Premier League winner Andy King just isn’t up to learning anything…

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, luke_bristol said:

Perhaps Premier League winner Andy King just isn’t up to learning anything…

Can't teach an old dog new tricks I guess

[robin_unreliant]

14 hours ago, Alessandro said:

 

Review at end of season for me.

If he does go, Tinnion also has to IMO or the charade will continue. Let’s ******* have some people in positions of power at the club that actually inspire excellence. 

I know it gets boring but the fact is we had them in Pearson and Alexander but decided that Tinnion knew better. What a shambles.

[Herta]

Given the the recent form of Middlesbrough and Southampton, that has taken some of the shine of those pair of wins. When you also consider the run we were on before that and what’s happened since the bloke has to be under pressure.
 

If we limp to the end of the season like this he simply has to go.

Edited February 25 by Herta

[Ashton Fete]

I think he shows a real naivety at times both in how he communicates with the media but also tactics and formations

The open criticism of the players is unacceptable in the manner he did and will hardly bring cohesion with the players or us as fans

He makes remarks such as needing time on the grass and then he gets it and we’re if anything worse than the week before so that’s naive to present himself an open goal to miss. 

He may feel we need more time, he may be thinking that he can’t wait for the summer, rotation of the squad and a chance to have 6 weeks pure grass time but he’s looking silly now.

His persistence with Mehmeti is just ridiculous and his selections too often just seem to be either wrong and or predictable with teams seemingly working us out very quickly 

Against QPR, bringing Cornick on for Bell was the wrong decision

We also seem to have a game on game off approach to Conway and Wells with both probably not getting a chance to gain momentum or feeling backed.  It’s the same with the midfield, TGH, James and Williams on constant rotation and combinations.  

King did more than enough against Forest to be getting more minutes whether he’s staying or going in the summer which we all know is the latter.  

However, again Manning states that he wants to be playing players who are here for the long term….fair enough but you can’t have it as a reason not to play someone like King but then play James or Williams who aren’t confirmed as staying. Again, naive communications.

Yesterday, if you’re making two subs at half time then you’ve either got it wrong tactically or Sykes and Pring weren’t fit enough so you got that wrong as well

So his lack of ownership and putting it all on the players is poor.

However, we roll on to Cardiff and Swansea in the next two home games and he couldn’t ask for a better opportunity to put the record straight and give us fans more reason to buy into the tactics and selections 

I for one hope we batter both of them and if he succeeds then as a club we’re succeeding so fingers crossed!

I want the games against Southampton, Forest, West Ham and Hull to be the basis of how we approach games rather than the exception to the Sheff Weds, QPR, Millwall games

At the minute I have no idea which is the norm or the exception! 

But I’ll roll up next Saturday hoping for a tactical masterclass and 4-0 win!

Hopefully he’ll have Twine and Naismith fit and starting as I think they’ll make a massive difference personally re what he’s trying to do embed

 

 

 

 

 

[One Team]

45 minutes ago, luke_bristol said:

Perhaps Premier League winner Andy King just isn’t up to learning anything…

Great example, how on earth will someone like King perceive comments like that. 

I appreciate you don’t have to have played professional football to a decent level to be a manager, there are quite a few positive examples, but building a team and culture is surely a lot easier if you can lead by example and experience. 

[Barrs Court Red]

2 hours ago, bexhill reds said:

Then this recreates problems we’ve had in the past, players brought in to play a certain manager’s way on lengthy contracts become spare parts should we decide that this head coach is better with a PowerPoint than being tactically astute and we go down a different route - again…

I’ve seen sparks of something and at times we’ve played well, but you’ve got to look at the trend, and the trend is not great.

His post match yesterday was enough for me, when you are criticising the players and openly questioning whether they can learn, when he clearly made yet more selection errors and then just threw on anyone on the bench that could kick a ball in the 2nd half almost as an American Football Hail Mary, but failed to accept any responsibility tells me all I need to know. He might be a great coach at junior and U21 level where he would not be questioned, but at this level you are questioned regularly and he appears to have no answer or idea other to churn out buzzwords or now throw others under the bus. This experiment has not worked and best to end it before more longer term damage is done

But we know how this is going to play out. Theres a certain inevitability so might as well embrace it. 

[Northern Red]

1 hour ago, One Team said:

I’ve said similar elsewhere, I get the impression we could be relegated and they’d stick with him. It will be incredibly toxic at games way before that though so Lansdown may find fan reaction too much not to pull the trigger by close season. Personally I think losing against Cardiff might be enough, and certainly Swansea as well. It was bad enough after the QPR game! 

Except they won't, and I think you know that really. People used to say it about LJ, it was wrong then as well.

[IAmNick]

I'd give him 8 games. If we don't see green shoots then get rid - we could do with being more ruthless I think.

Give the new guy 4 games to assess, then back him. We've got a lean, young squad with a pretty good spine. We've got FFP headroom - but the time on that is running out.

Let's commit, with Manning if it's working, with someone else before the summer of it's not 

[ray savino]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

So I voted with your last option. I don't really expect a top 6 challenge next season, but as I say, I can't really ever seeing that as being a reasonable expectation under the current finances, ownership, football eco system etc (a wider conversation there).

Yep, emotionally it pains me to say stick with him and back him at the moment. He needs to be given the time and investment to try and do what he apparently showed after a pre-season and restructure in playing staff at Oxford United. Can’t judge him on MK Dons as you might argue that Russell Martin had began to build the guts of that team and LM was taking up the reins from a manager/coach who already played LM’s preferrred style. At Oxford it would be more a comparison with our situation. He will have had around 2/3 of a season to suss out the club, players and staff, who he wants to keep and who he doesn’t think will fit in. Then recruit for the gaps in playing staff to what he and Tinnion think is needed... and see where it goes.

I have a feeling that this could end badly, or should I say mediocrely as per usual (hopefully not relegation as many past outcomes). But... reality is that he will be given time as the latest project to prove himself under his preferred conditions/terms. He won’t be sacked this season unless we go on an horrendous losing run and more importantly coinciding season ticket sales taking off with all the aeronautic capabilities of a lead balloon. The Board would then get a bit twitchy particularly if the fans reactions become toxic at games. 

This whole situation is ultimately on the Board’s heads. As fans we have to ultimately judge them, cos by past track record they sure ain’t gonna hire and fire just like that, so SL and JL will do exactly what they want. They’ve chosen the direction, they make the decisions and they will have to live with the consequences. Their track record hasn’t been good (in fact mediocre) on the football side, but I sincerely hope it works by them properly backing their man. If it works then we will all be delighted and they can bask in their success. If it’s a disaster they will get full pelters I should imagine.

I too think, and have for ages, that we have needed to invest in the talented, streetwise football world-wise brains to run that football side of the club. As has been proven by the many clubs who have implemented strategies, plans and stuctures that have overtaken us over the years, particularly since Cotterill’s League One successful season. The present Board seem not to trust (possibly understandably after the profligacy of the Ashton CEO years) these models which have been successful elsewhere. But indeed, @ExiledAjax, that is a wider and perhaps the most important conversation. 

So, forget all the ”manager‘s crap, players aren’t good enough, the pie’s are shit whatever”, we look like we’re stuck at the moment with the only hope that the Board’s latest plan will turn out just fine. I genuinely hope it does because I would just love this club to taste a little bit of success at the top table for the first time in 45 years! 

And another thing we’ll beat Cardiff on Saturday and we’ll be Champions elect 2025, then lose v Ipswich and relegation looms again. The habits of a lifetime following this club! Hope, hope and more bloody hope!   

[luke_bristol]

Ultimately I think the decision point should come at the end of the season, not in November (unless we’re rooted to the foot of the table).

We can’t afford half-measures this summer; if we’re sticking with him then we need to back him properly, not give him £200k to play with while selling TC and Cam Pring. With his own team he might do well, we’ve seen in the saints and Watford games that he can get decent results with performances to match, but he’s clearly not able to get any more out of the current squad than NP was able to, and that’s with much better player availability.

Never dull is it? Well maybe the last two games were.

[TBW]

I don't think it matters where we are with him. The board aren't going to give up on it now and say they ****** up. 

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, IAmNick said:

I'd give him 8 games. If we don't see green shoots then get rid - we could do with being more ruthless I think.

Give the new guy 4 games to assess, then back him. We've got a lean, young squad with a pretty good spine. We've got FFP headroom - but the time on that is running out.

Let's commit, with Manning if it's working, with someone else before the summer of it's not 

It's a fair assessment. Certainly not one I'd vehemently disagree with despite saying earlier I'd give him the summer.

I've been thinking, and I've gone and looked at my xG numbers which tbh I've probably been ignoring recently. Not everyone loves xG but these numbers have served me well in the past and so I give them credence.

Right now it's not good. We've not been dominant in xG to the point of reasonably expecting a win since Birmingham away. We've only dominated to that level on two other occasions under Manning.

Manning's overall figures in this regard are on a par with Pearson's first 14 games of the season, and are on a par with our whole season. That didn't make me want to sack Pearson in November, and I don't want to sack Manning now. But Liam is undeniably on a bad run, and I understand the concerns that this bad run coincides with a high level of squad availability.

53 minutes ago, ray savino said:

I have a feeling that this could end badly, or should I say mediocrely as per usual (hopefully not relegation as many past outcomes).

An incredibly long post mate but basically I agree. All I'd say is that managerial tenures basically always end badly. Very few get to choose their exit - or their entrance for that matter - and departures are normally instigated by something going wrong either on or off the pitch. This will be no different.

[Silvio Dante]

1 hour ago, IAmNick said:

I'd give him 8 games. If we don't see green shoots then get rid - we could do with being more ruthless I think.

Give the new guy 4 games to assess, then back him. We've got a lean, young squad with a pretty good spine. We've got FFP headroom - but the time on that is running out.

Let's commit, with Manning if it's working, with someone else before the summer of it's not 

As said earlier, probably fair. Although I say end of season as the break point we will know before then if it’s likely to work and should then act earlier.

I in no way want it to happen but in a lot of ways losing the next 5/6/7 games playing badly may be the best thing long term if it forces the issue to a quicker head. Equally I’d be delighted if we won the next 5/6/7 while playing well as that should settle the issue in a positive way.

[Jerseybean]

Some interesting posts on this thread.

My personal position is that with 12 games of this season left we should stick with him (sure we will) and make a decision immediately the final whistle goes away at Stoke.

Of course I’d expect the hierarchy to be telling him this is their stance now, as well as be planning for a potential successor, however, sadly I doubt either is happening.

In essence, that means, rather like some of our current players, his future is in his own hands.

Of course the Club have created this problem by appointing him along with some delusional comments surrounding that decision.

So for me, I’d give him to the end of the season and then if the Club have got any ambition whatsoever. they need to make an immediate decision one way or the other.

I’d agree with a few other points in this thread as follows: there are some LJ similarities, the hierarchy want a yes man, whoever is in charge we need to invest in players.

[robin_unreliant]

I'm really confused about where we are right now. The first 20 mins v Boro and the whole 90 mins of Soton were more than good enough for me. That wasn't long ago, although it feels like it!

Given that, I want more time to see whether we can build on those games or not. Twine getting injured is annoying. He was clearly Manning's choice and I also want some idea of whether a few of his 'type' of player could turn things round. 

At the moment I think we need more evidence before judging that it just won't work under LM and we need another change. Also, I don't have any evidence yet of whether the players he would want in the summer are going to move us up the table where the hierarchy are saying we should be.

So give him the rest of the season I'd say.