What Could Possibly go RIGHT and How Might it happen?

[The Original OTIB]

There is a possibility that things might go on an upward trend fron now until seasons end (yes, I know ....). Anyway, what single thing (or perhaps a few) would bring that about from this moment forth? For me, this stuff is cobblers:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/liam-manning-bristol-city-season-9125248

The reality, generally is: ""You can have all the coaching manuals, all the university degrees, and all this, and all that. You modern guys, you youngsters, it's all data and all that. But do you know 90-95% of being successful is man management... getting the best out of what you've got."

Notwithstanding the reported comments, will our Head Coach actually work on the above? If not, will the players urge that to be the course, with some tweaks? I think it might happen with a combination of the two.  That usually works best when strong minded, senior players are close to the Head Coach / Manager. Some signs suggest that ours is fearful or at least mistrustful of those strong characters. That may be incorrect, but we shall see. This situation somewhat smacks of the need for a bridge between players and coaches. That usually starts with the senior pros. Being down one significant one in Andi does, in my opinion, make a difference. One less alternative voice. This isn't the time for coaches/managers to come out with doom laden comments about hard work and standing up and being counted. Yes, good on paper, but you also need to raise esteem, spirit and drive in more subtle ways. That is man management. Does LM do it on his own or with the senior pros? To me, that is how it might go right, along with less of the data and drills and more of doing what we are good at already.

[OneTeamInBristol]

Can have the best head coach/manager in the world and they would hit a limit of what they could get out of a lower mid table Championship squad.

[Sir Geoff]

Could always stand in the dressing room at 12.15 Saturday and just tell them to forget all the nonsense that he has been trying to pump in to their heads, remind them its a derby that we desperately need a win and to just go out there, roll their sleeves up, be themselves and play with a bit of freedom. Couldnt be any worse than what weve had to endure to date.

[The Original OTIB]

5 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Could always stand in the dressing room at 12.15 Saturday and just tell them to forget all the nonsense that he has been trying to pump in to their heads, remind them its a derby that we desperately need a win and to just go out there, roll their sleeves up, be themselves and play with a bit of freedom. Couldnt be any worse than what weve had to endure to date.

play with a bit of freedom, indeed, one of the things we are/were quite good at already. 

[1960maaan]

24 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Could always stand in the dressing room at 12.15 Saturday and just tell them to forget all the nonsense that he has been trying to pump in to their heads, remind them its a derby that we desperately need a win and to just go out there, roll their sleeves up, be themselves and play with a bit of freedom. Couldnt be any worse than what weve had to endure to date.

Harsh , but not a million miles from what I think could be part of the problem/

18 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

play with a bit of freedom, indeed, one of the things we are/were quite good at already. 

That is the key word and one that points out a major problem with continuity with the old & new coach.

Pearson was big on the players taking responsibility on the pitch, they are out there, they have to make choices and come up with solutions We had seen improvement , all be it slow , and I would like to have seen where we would have been with the players getting fit. That's over and we were given a new coach to take us onward.
Except he is the opposite in how we go out , now this problem can be all be put on the people in charge . LM is detail lead, he sets patterns and wants them to follow instruction. This means when things go wrong you can be found wanting , needing the next instruction.

I think we need to find some middle ground, don't over coach . I feel like we've been here before , under LJ . 
 

[The Original OTIB]

3 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Harsh , but not a million miles from what I think could be part of the problem/

That is the key word and one that points out a major problem with continuity with the old & new coach.

Pearson was big on the players taking responsibility on the pitch, they are out there, they have to make choices and come up with solutions We had seen improvement , all be it slow , and I would like to have seen where we would have been with the players getting fit. That's over and we were given a new coach to take us onward.
Except he is the opposite in how we go out , now this problem can be all be put on the people in charge . LM is detail lead, he sets patterns and wants them to follow instruction. This means when things go wrong you can be found wanting , needing the next instruction.

I think we need to find some middle ground, don't over coach . I feel like we've been here before , under LJ . 
 

Middle ground broadly a part of what I was saying.

[Sheltons Army]

5 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Harsh , but not a million miles from what I think could be part of the problem/

That is the key word and one that points out a major problem with continuity with the old & new coach.

Pearson was big on the players taking responsibility on the pitch, they are out there, they have to make choices and come up with solutions We had seen improvement , all be it slow , and I would like to have seen where we would have been with the players getting fit. That's over and we were given a new coach to take us onward.
Except he is the opposite in how we go out , now this problem can be all be put on the people in charge . LM is detail lead, he sets patterns and wants them to follow instruction. This means when things go wrong you can be found wanting , needing the next instruction.

I think we need to find some middle ground, don't over coach . I feel like we've been here before , under LJ . 
 

Really Excellent post -

 

Not specifically regarding LM

There is always a danger for any process coach that he coaches all decision making ability and footballing in pitch  ‘instinct’ out of players or , severely diminishes them - something that most players wouldn’t be over wild with 

That balance is , as you highlight very important 

[The Original OTIB]

1 hour ago, Sheltons Army said:

Really Excellent post -

 

Not specifically regarding LM

There is always a danger for any process coach that he coaches all decision making ability and footballing in pitch  ‘instinct’ out of players or , severely diminishes them - something that most players wouldn’t be over wild with 

That balance is , as you highlight very important 

Last interview before sack at MK... hmm ...

 

[cellist]

52 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Last interview before sack at MK... hmm ...

 

Absolute car crash of an interview. It does bear one or two worrying similarities with Saturday.

Can see why they sacked him afterwards. I wouldn't want to play for him after that. Don't know anything about the MK situation at that time, but it doesn't really matter does it? If you're saying what essentially adds up to "Me and the coaches are brilliant, it's all the players' fault" - hard to see how things can get better.

[cityexile]

3 minutes ago, cellist said:

Absolute car crash of an interview. It does bear one or two worrying similarities with Saturday.

Can see why they sacked him afterwards. I wouldn't want to play for him after that. Don't know anything about the MK situation at that time, but it doesn't really matter does it? If you're saying what essentially adds up to "Me and the coaches are brilliant, it's all the players' fault" - hard to see how things can get better.

It might be unfair, but reminds me of a young MBA who arrives at a workplace with lots of new ideas but fails to take anyone with them.

Not to say new ideas cannot be good, of course they can, but success comes down as much as anything to man management. I can imagine looking at my Premier league winners medal, going in to work and being told, right, what you really need to do is this...

The ‘sale’ behind LM was really an evolutionary one, basically it’s a decent squad that needs fine tuning to push on to the next level. It’s now changed to not his players, cannot do what he wants them to do, may as well chuck in ‘needs three windows’.

[Rossi the Robin]

24 minutes ago, cellist said:

Absolute car crash of an interview. It does bear one or two worrying similarities with Saturday.

Can see why they sacked him afterwards. I wouldn't want to play for him after that. Don't know anything about the MK situation at that time, but it doesn't really matter does it? If you're saying what essentially adds up to "Me and the coaches are brilliant, it's all the players' fault" - hard to see how things can get better.

Can’t bring myself to watch it.

Still struggle even after our good wins 

Find him a harder listen than LJ

 

[JP Hampton]

37 minutes ago, Rossi the Robin said:

Can’t bring myself to watch it.

Still struggle even after our good wins 

Find him a harder listen than LJ

 

Tbh you can probably do a good job just imagining it. Because it sounds just like any other interview ever at City or MK “the players haven’t stepped up”!

Edited February 27 by JP Hampton

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, The Original OTIB said:

Last interview before sack at MK... hmm ...

 

It must be terrible , lacking quality in your back box , just ask Irene . 

Edited February 27 by Major Isewater

[JP Hampton]

I think given the fact that it’s likely the board will back him, we may have a continuing scenario of winning a couple, losing a few, until those players who can and want to adapt will and those who can’t will be gone. 
 That team that were so called ready for top end football, will be a semi rebuilt, robotically drilled team. 
 

 Clearly it may work, eventually, but patience will be the watch word. It will be a lot of time wasted and a lot of money spent. 
 I just wonder where the “bravery” will come from, given that word is used time and time again. Does this well drilled, managed processed type of football allow for bravery, spontaneity “honesty”(whatever that means)?

 I like @Sir Geoff’s idea. Just let ‘em rip boys.  

[The Original OTIB]

24 minutes ago, JP Hampton said:

I think given the fact that it’s likely the board will back him, we may have a continuing scenario of winning a couple, losing a few, until those players who can and want to adapt will and those who can’t will be gone. 
 That team that were so called ready for top end football, will be a semi rebuilt, robotically drilled team. 
 

 Clearly it may work, eventually, but patience will be the watch word. It will be a lot of time wasted and a lot of money spent. 
 I just wonder where the “bravery” will come from, given that word is used time and time again. Does this well drilled, managed processed type of football allow for bravery, spontaneity “honesty”(whatever that means)?

 I like @Sir Geoff’s idea. Just let ‘em rip boys.  

Yes, but what of ther here and now and prospect for upturn?

[LondonBristolian]

I think there are some great posts in this thread. For me, it's less about a middle ground so much as an understanding that different players respond to different things. There are undoubtedly players that benefit from a lot of coaching and instruction but there other's who learn by subconsciously absorbing what they observe but struggle if they over-think things, or simply thrive on instinct.

What worries me is the idea from Saturday that the game plan was right and the players didn't execute it. Several years ago, I worked in an outpatient psychology service. Whenever treatment didn't succeed, the psychologists would always frame it as "The patient didn't engage with the treatment". There was never any questioning of whether they were being offered the right treatment, or whether the psychologists were doing it effectively. It was always the patient who was to blame for supposedly not wanting to be cured enough. At the moment, I feel Manning is sitting around telling himself, "No, it's the players who are wrong", Seymour Skinner-style. But ultimately I think he'll only develop to achieve his potential as a manager if he can start to interrogate whether he is working to the strengths of his players. 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

What worries me is the idea from Saturday that the game plan was right and the players didn't execute it. Several years ago, I worked in an outpatient psychology service. Whenever treatment didn't succeed, the psychologists would always frame it as "The patient didn't engage with the treatment". There was never any questioning of whether they were being offered the right treatment, or whether the psychologists were doing it effectively. It was always the patient who was to blame for supposedly not wanting to be cured enough. At the moment, I feel Manning is sitting around telling himself, "No, it's the players who are wrong", Seymour Skinner-style. But ultimately I think he'll only develop to achieve his potential as a manager if he can start to interrogate whether he is working to the strengths of his players. 

And this is why I want to hear from Hogg and / or Krause.  I want a different perspective…ok, a different voice, because I might get the same perspective. But until I hear from them I’ve no idea whether this is a single vision or a vision built on acceptable challenge.

Please…please…please.

[The Original OTIB]

8 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think there are some great posts in this thread. For me, it's less about a middle ground so much as an understanding that different players respond to different things. There are undoubtedly players that benefit from a lot of coaching and instruction but there other's who learn by subconsciously absorbing what they observe but struggle if they over-think things, or simply thrive on instinct.

What worries me is the idea from Saturday that the game plan was right and the players didn't execute it. Several years ago, I worked in an outpatient psychology service. Whenever treatment didn't succeed, the psychologists would always frame it as "The patient didn't engage with the treatment". There was never any questioning of whether they were being offered the right treatment, or whether the psychologists were doing it effectively. It was always the patient who was to blame for supposedly not wanting to be cured enough. At the moment, I feel Manning is sitting around telling himself, "No, it's the players who are wrong", Seymour Skinner-style. But ultimately I think he'll only develop to achieve his potential as a manager if he can start to interrogate whether he is working to the strengths of his players. 

That is why senior pros are so important as the link to knit things together as well as leading by voice and example. Newer style coaches like maleable and receptive as they expect it rather than understanding different learning styles and character 

[The Original OTIB]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And this is why I want to hear from Hogg and / or Krause.  I want a different perspective…ok, a different voice, because I might get the same perspective. But until I hear from them I’ve no idea whether this is a single vision or a vision built on acceptable challenge.

Please…please…please.

Smiths! How very apposite.

[JP Hampton]

29 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Yes, but what of ther here and now and prospect for upturn?

  Well I think @LondonBristolian has put it in better words, explaining what I’ve tried to articulate in other threads. The plan is being applied to players. NP learnt with the players he had, he had to allow them to play in a way, that brought out the best in them and I think that’s where we were, when he left. 
   He realised a one size fits all approach wasn’t going to work and I think we can agree from the post match interviews , LM either hasn’t discovered that yet or believes his way is the only way it will work in the end. 
 

  So I could say he needs to have more of this in his coaching, but I really don’t believe that’s going to happen. In short players are either going to have to “get it “ or we’re going to see very much more of the same. 

[Gert Mare]

6 hours ago, The Original OTIB said:

There is a possibility that things might go on an upward trend fron now until seasons end (yes, I know ....). Anyway, what single thing (or perhaps a few) would bring that about from this moment forth? For me, this stuff is cobblers:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/liam-manning-bristol-city-season-9125248

The reality, generally is: ""You can have all the coaching manuals, all the university degrees, and all this, and all that. You modern guys, you youngsters, it's all data and all that. But do you know 90-95% of being successful is man management... getting the best out of what you've got."

Notwithstanding the reported comments, will our Head Coach actually work on the above? If not, will the players urge that to be the course, with some tweaks? I think it might happen with a combination of the two.  That usually works best when strong minded, senior players are close to the Head Coach / Manager. Some signs suggest that ours is fearful or at least mistrustful of those strong characters. That may be incorrect, but we shall see. This situation somewhat smacks of the need for a bridge between players and coaches. That usually starts with the senior pros. Being down one significant one in Andi does, in my opinion, make a difference. One less alternative voice. This isn't the time for coaches/managers to come out with doom laden comments about hard work and standing up and being counted. Yes, good on paper, but you also need to raise esteem, spirit and drive in more subtle ways. That is man management. Does LM do it on his own or with the senior pros? To me, that is how it might go right, along with less of the data and drills and more of doing what we are good at already.

Successful managers get inside players heads and are masters at man management. They understand personality types and can speak in appropriate language to deliver their message and get the optimum performances out of their players.

Nige had this. I haven’t seen it with Liam yet.

The theory and tactics might well help improve results, but if you cannot deal with different personalities and communicate your ideas into a language that can be interpreted and understood by the individuals then you’re on a hiding to nothing.

A football team’s success is the sum of its parts. Every man needs to know his job!

Edited February 27 by Gert Mare

[spudski]

For me, this is an opportunity to see whether the players we intend keeping are good enough.

Do we agree we are most likely losing King, James, Wells, ( obviously Weimann ) maybe Williams, and most likely Twine won't be here next season. 

So as much as I'd want them to play, what's the point in playing them? They have nothing to play for...they won't be judged on their ability in these last games. 

Put out a team that will be here next season. Play them how you want them to play. If they don't succeed, you will know they aren't good enough, and that you still need experience and older heads to lead. 

We have nothing to play for...what will Manning learn from playing players that he has no intention of using next season. 

[TDarwall]

11 minutes ago, spudski said:

 

We have nothing to play for...what will Manning learn from playing players that he has no intention of using next season. 

I don't disagree in principle but I'm not sure Manning explaining to the fans that getting trounced by Cardiff was ok as it gives him a clearer idea of what we need for next season is going to play out very well.

Hopefully we can have a half decent run of results, & then he can experiment for a few games if he chooses but in a less febrile atmosphere.

[Engvall’s Splinter]

16 minutes ago, spudski said:

For me, this is an opportunity to see whether the players we intend keeping are good enough.

Do we agree we are most likely losing King, James, Wells, ( obviously Weimann ) maybe Williams, and most likely Twine won't be here next season. 

So as much as I'd want them to play, what's the point in playing them? They have nothing to play for...they won't be judged on their ability in these last games. 

Put out a team that will be here next season. Play them how you want them to play. If they don't succeed, you will know they aren't good enough, and that you still need experience and older heads to lead. 

We have nothing to play for...what will Manning learn from playing players that he has no intention of using next season. 

Disagree with these statements although I do understand your point, however I want us to finish as strongly as possible. If we do, there is a chance that those in the prospective signings pot who may be 50/50 on joining - see the upward trend and are enticed into signing. If we have a poor finish and look like relegation fodder for the following season, it will make it increasingly difficult to sign a better calibre of player (unless we pay over the odds). 
 

Manning has to finish positively not just for him, but for the players who are staying and those we may sign. 

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, TDarwall said:

I don't disagree in principle but I'm not sure Manning explaining to the fans that getting trounced by Cardiff was ok as it gives him a clearer idea of what we need for next season is going to play out very well.

Hopefully we can have a half decent run of results, & then he can experiment for a few games if he chooses but in a less febrile atmosphere.

If we get trounced by Cardiff using ' next season's players' so to speak, then surely that's something he will have learned. Trying to beat Cardiff using players that won't be here means nothing. I'd rather lose and learn, than win and learn nothing that we don't already know. 

[TDarwall]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

If we get trounced by Cardiff using ' next season's players' so to speak, then surely that's something he will have learned. Trying to beat Cardiff using players that won't be here means nothing. I'd rather lose and learn, than win and learn nothing that we don't already know. 

Personally, don't disagree with a word of that. However I don't think the timing or the opposition this weekend lend themselves to experimentation.

2 games ago some said it was the best we'd played in years.  Now he's lost/confused/bored the dressing room.  A big loss to Cardiff isn't going to help him.

[eardun]

What could possibly go right? Play like we did v Southampton and beat Cardiff, Ipswich and Swansea and watch the mood change. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, eardun said:

What could possibly go right? Play like we did v Southampton and beat Cardiff, Ipswich and Swansea and watch the mood change. 

Yes that would certainly assist but would it paper over the cracks?

It would very much help but perhaps it then buys time for a better minimum level, a better consistency of performance and principles.

[eardun]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes that would certainly assist but would it paper over the cracks?

It would very much help but perhaps it then buys time for a better minimum level, a better consistency of performance and principles.

I’ve felt that our best performances under Manning have been much better than we’ve seen for years, so the highs are higher. So that gives me some confidence that there are some positives to focus on. As you say we need to find the consistency - our lows are still as low as they ever were. I think the players have been guilty of believing the hype after Southampton, Boro, West Ham and Forest. They just weren’t at it v QPR and Sheff Wed and we won’t get consistency until they (or new players) can do it game after game relentlessly.

[1960maaan]

12 hours ago, spudski said:

For me, this is an opportunity to see whether the players we intend keeping are good enough.

Do we agree we are most likely losing King, James, Wells, ( obviously Weimann ) maybe Williams, and most likely Twine won't be here next season. 

So as much as I'd want them to play, what's the point in playing them? They have nothing to play for...they won't be judged on their ability in these last games. 

Put out a team that will be here next season. Play them how you want them to play. If they don't succeed, you will know they aren't good enough, and that you still need experience and older heads to lead. 

We have nothing to play for...what will Manning learn from playing players that he has no intention of using next season. 

It is something I have said before, but ....
That would leave a CMF of Knight & TGH , I like that pairing but we would be light there.
Then add there is a good chance TC might not be here, who do you play up front?

I also take @TDarwall's point , as a supporter Cardiff is one of those games you hate to lose and doing that while experimenting as a new , and some what untrusted coach would be risky.

9 hours ago, eardun said:

What could possibly go right? Play like we did v Southampton and beat Cardiff, Ipswich and Swansea and watch the mood change. 

If we played like that Vs Ipswich and Swansea we could see good results, but that's the problem. Against those teams that battle to restrict space, that don't come out , those that play like Cardiff probably will , we struggle against. We didn't set out to play like we did Vs QPR & SW , they made the game like that and we struggled for answers. Cardiff would have seen that and will probably try t do their version.

One more point on the players leaving.
If we are definitely playing with a 10 next year, why not play Twine and see how that fits ? It may not be him, but if we are playing that way with someone similar, it makes sense. 
If we are likely to rotating TGH, Knight and Bird, start with Knight and TGH .
If Williams is wanted next year add him.

We haven't got the squad to just drop the players that won't be here, we can use the ones that will, more often though , and in the right positions. 

Manning needs wins first because with many more games like the recent 2 , then he won't be here to rebuild. You can see the pressure on him in the recent Presser's . A decent win Saturday buys him time, then two games against more open sides and hopefully we get nearer a Southampton performance .

It's all a balance, but he could really do with some good feeling from the fans.