What do we need to see in the last 12?

[Silvio Dante]

In other threads, I’ve expressed the view that I’d give Liam until the end of the season and if things haven’t improved, I’d part ways (logic here being throwing money at something if there are major concerns it’s unlikely to work).

However, the other side of that is that it has to be fair to say what that improvement needs to be. I’m not seeing this as a he “must win 9/12” or something like that, but just what needs to be seen in the remaining fixtures to give confidence that he is the right man. For the purposes of this, I’m trying not to go too generic (commitment) or things that aren’t going to change (principles of ball retention) but others welcome to do so.

With that in mind, these are my top 3:

- Game Management - to be fair, this could be 1,2 and 3. My largest concern about Liam to date has been his ability to “counter the counter” and it hasn’t improved. Being realistic, we aren’t going to steamroller teams for 90 minutes all the next 12 (and if we do the thread is null) and we’re going to have several periods where we’re not on top. In the context of alleviating concerns, that will be a good thing. I want to see us come out the other side of adversity. I want to see us adapt when the other team are on top. I want to see the tweaks in game. If that doesn’t improve - he’s toast.

- Speed of Play - Liam isn’t going to move from the principle of ball retention, and that’s fine. If you watch the latest Robins Uncut, he makes the point about holding the ball too long or releasing too quickly and he’s spot on there. But right now we are holding the ball too long (both in terms of overall pattern and individually). It makes us easy to defend against, takes the excitement out of the game and is massively predictable. It doesn’t need to be less passes (it does need to be at times), but I’d like to see a marked improvement in this

- Bravery - Slightly generic but to expand - in a recent match thread, a poster predicted that subs would be made on 60 minutes. It’s sarcasm, but true - and kind of linked to point one. Liam is very safe in his subs - like for like, certain time. If someone is having a mare, he should do a half hour sub. If they’re not following instructions, he should haul at half time. The only time I’ll mention Nige here is the Cov home game - he got selection there spectacularly wrong and we were getting battered. He made subs on 35 minutes. It was brave. It worked. I’d like to see signs Liam could do the same.

My view is that Liam has a job to do to convince certainly myself and others - but if he gets number one right, then in his own words “that’s the biggest bit”

[Davefevs]

Re Game Management, I’d include Tactical Plan.  I think there is too much change based on opponent.  Totally need to cover opponents strengths, but can go too far, and forget about imposing your own game…and making your opponent change, not us.

Southampton’s game-plan wasn’t a huge deviation from his principles, at a simple level it was “get back into a block asap and when you win it, counter”

Blocking is nothing new for the team.

Counterattacking is nothing new for the team.

No players able to handle what was really just a change in intent (simplified).

Whereas Sheffield was.  Out to WB, into CM for first time clip into the channels.  We don’t play like that.  Huge deviation.  Made even worse by execution.  At what point do you think - “shit, this isn’t working”?

Was QPR the game that sewed the seeds of doubt?  Personally I don’t think we’ve been playing much patient build-up for weeks, but I do think there was a view that that game caused the Sheffield re-think.  Yet for me, Sheffield play nothing like QPR.

Today’s press conference will be interesting!

[Silvio Dante]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Re Game Management, I’d include Tactical Plan.  I think there is too much change based on opponent.  Totally need to cover opponents strengths, but can go too far, and forget about imposing your own game…and making your opponent change, not us.

Southampton’s game-plan wasn’t a huge deviation from his principles, at a simple level it was “get back into a block asap and when you win it, counter”

Blocking is nothing new for the team.

Counterattacking is nothing new for the team.

No players able to handle what was really just a change in intent (simplified).

Whereas Sheffield was.  Out to WB, into CM for first time clip into the channels.  We don’t play like that.  Huge deviation.  Made even worse by execution.  At what point do you think - “shit, this isn’t working”?

Was QPR the game that sewed the seeds of doubt?  Personally I don’t think we’ve been playing much patient build-up for weeks, but I do think there was a view that that game caused the Sheffield re-think.  Yet for me, Sheffield play nothing like QPR.

Today’s press conference will be interesting!

Agree, and they’re both sides of the same coin. It does all feed into the wider adaptability/playing to strength piece for me. I shied away from it as I think - and I think we agree - that Liam knows his ideal “destination” but his sat nav to get there is IMO a bit ropey!

[headhunter]

A minimum 4 wins so we better the 15 we have achieved in each of the past 3 seasons.

16 more points to better last season's 59

So from 12 games that's 4 wins 4 draws & 4 defeats

Anything less is abject failure and should lead to exiting Manning

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, headhunter said:

A minimum 4 wins so we better the 15 we have achieved in each of the past 3 seasons.

16 more points to better last season's 59

So from 12 games that's 4 wins 4 draws & 4 defeats

Anything less is abject failure and should lead to exiting Manning

Just one game at a time for me…as you know.

But it will take a huge decline for him to be sacked.  And as it stands he isn’t producing a huge decline, a small regression is all - and that’s just my opinion.  Others think he has taken us forward.  So, contemplating a view of sacking is a bit of a stretch at this juncture.  I guess if you think that the last two games are a sign of continued decline, then you’ll reach that view.  We could of course finish the season strongly.

[Son of Fred]

10 minutes ago, headhunter said:

A minimum 4 wins so we better the 15 we have achieved in each of the past 3 seasons.

16 more points to better last season's 59

So from 12 games that's 4 wins 4 draws & 4 defeats

Anything less is abject failure and should lead to exiting Manning

Should but won't

Next season will be a bumpy ride!

[Sheltons Army]

Enough signs that we won’t be any worse than mid table , or even lower mid , next season 

And that’s an honest answer

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Enough signs that we won’t be any worse than mid table , or even lower mid , next season 

And that’s an honest answer

If you’re inclined to read through to the summary in the last few of posts in the tweet thread, which move away from the boring old data.

[Silvio Dante]

37 minutes ago, headhunter said:

A minimum 4 wins so we better the 15 we have achieved in each of the past 3 seasons.

16 more points to better last season's 59

So from 12 games that's 4 wins 4 draws & 4 defeats

Anything less is abject failure and should lead to exiting Manning

There’s the balance here isn’t there between the tangible (the points) and the intangible (my list).

If I think he’s actually hit the intangibles but we end up winning 2 and losing 8 then the pressure may be too much (acknowledging if we lose 8 he’s unlikely to have hit my list). Conversely if we get 15 points but there are real signs of life, then I don’t think your analysis is probably fair.

I do agree with Dave that he’s unlikely to go, come what may, unless we do go on a spectacular losing run. With that in mind I’m more concerned with what sets us up for how we feel next season - I saw Ian tweeted that he should get until October which to me seems illogical and the worst of all worlds.

Either way, that we’re even having the discussion is pretty damning on Tinnion and Lansdown.

 

[Baba Yaga]

I am especially looking out for the fixtures against the bottom half teams before the end of the season, so far I don't think Manning has beaten any and it's been like half a goal per game or something very close to that.

[Gol]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Agree, and they’re both sides of the same coin. It does all feed into the wider adaptability/playing to strength piece for me. I shied away from it as I think - and I think we agree - that Liam knows his ideal “destination” but his sat nav to get there is IMO a bit ropey!

was going to say I want to see more adaptability from Manning, or at least better in game management - when plan A doesn't work it always seems like we have no plan B

[Keep the Faith]

53 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

I am especially looking out for the fixtures against the bottom half teams before the end of the season, so far I don't think Manning has beaten any and it's been like half a goal per game or something very close to that.

I think this is a huge part of it for me. Mid to lower table teams at home. Unless we work out how to win/draw the majority of these we aren’t going anywhere. I’m relatively comfortable with how we play and fair against better opposition at the moment (clearly improvements can be made there as well).

Home games against Cardiff, Swansea, Blackburn, Huddersfield and Rotherham. We need points and far more convincing displays. 

[spudski]

Tbh...whatever results and performances he gets between now and the end of the season, will bare no relation to how will do in the future/ next season.

As I've said in previous posts, if we are likely to lose Wells, King, Weimann, James, Twine and maybe Williams, and replace them with the likes of what we've bought and loaned back, and bring in ' young hungry athletic, league 1 type players, with little or no experience at this level or above, how are we to guage what will happen next season?

[bearded_red]

Winning a game while having the majority of possession for the first time under this manager would be a start.

[Merrick's Marvels]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Today’s press conference will be interesting!

That'll be the day. 

[Galley is our king]

2 hours ago, headhunter said:

A minimum 4 wins so we better the 15 we have achieved in each of the past 3 seasons.

16 more points to better last season's 59

So from 12 games that's 4 wins 4 draws & 4 defeats

Anything less is abject failure and should lead to exiting Manning

Better tell Mr Gay then eh?

[IAmNick]

Maybe it's too simplistic an answer, but I want to see evidence he can improve things at the offensive end of the pitch, without compromising what has been an outstanding defence this year. I'll be keeping an eye on our GD.

People talked about game management - I don't want to see us going for broke in the last 15m and conceding late on again. I want to see players like Vyner and O'Leary continue the frankly staggering progress they've made in the last couple of years and not regress.

We've conceded less goals this season than half the top 6, and joint least out of the entire rest of the division. Our defence has been brilliant. That's a serious platform we need to build on. I don't want to see us making such an effort to break down teams that we lose that. I want to see us find a way to build on our solid defensive foundations, not compromise them.

People talk about exciting football - well I want to win games. That's what makes a season exciting in the long run I think. I don't care as much about styles, "front foot", or whatever personally.

Edited February 29 by IAmNick

[Packman]

I just don't want to be bored out of my skull every week, not even that fussed about results as long as the team put a shift in. 

[cidercity1987]

Manning needs less than Lansdown and Tinnion that's for sure

60 points will be enough for the fans regarding Manning, however for the two above him anything less than 65 points and top 10 at least is a damning failure of their actions 

[hinsleburg]

I think there needs to be a tangible improvement in the style and clear signs of Implementation even with the personnel that we've got. I do actually think there's been glimpses of improvement and spells in games where it seems to be working but largely our style of play has been ineffective.

I appreciate it takes time to embed and implement and think the end of the season gives us enough time to assess and judge if there's enough there or if a change of tact is needed. Whilst the argument will be 'we can't keep changing plans' if it's not working with the 'Top 6 squad' we've got then ultimately it's not going to work at all. I'm not expecting us to be 2010 Barcelona but there should be consistent signs as a group and individually of methods working. This means the squad needs a 'tweak' in the summer and not a '3 window rebuild' as it undermines and contradicts everything the board has said previously.

Maybe we're at the 'needs to get worse before it gets better stage' but it needs to start getting better by the end of the season, otherwise we're sleep walking into a season of, at absolute best, mediocrity.

[BCFCGav]

I'm not going to be Manning out this summer pretty much regardless. Owners are the issue. I won't go on my 8th tirade about that!

For me, I'll look down more of a performance lens than a result lens for the remainder of this season since points return is relatively academic now. However, I want to pick out 3 games where I think we need a result above all else, even if we play crap.

Cardiff on Saturday, as it's a derby. And we could all really do with a lift right now.

Swansea, another derby. 

Stoke. Last game of the season so a chance to take some feel-good into the summer. And we could relegate one of the shiny 'former prem teams' that the media/Sky love so much, which would just be really funny.

All the rest, we can focus on getting Manning-ball instilled into the squad and identify changes the squad may need in the summer.

If we lose all three of my pinpointed matches. Painful but so be it. I'll still want Manning to be given the summer. The problems are above his head. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I hope for..

*A consistent style of play and yes 'principles'.

*A shape and approach that fits what we have presently not what we may have in 18 months.

*A cohesive, competent well-drilled unit in which incremental tweaks can be made and who can deliver a consistent minimum baseline of performance.

Obvious I have my hopes of points too and especially 60 minimum, 63-65 ideal but that in  a sense is immaterial.

[W-S-M Seagull]

Finishing less than 10 points off the play offs is the expectation for me. 

Edited February 29 by W-S-M Seagull

[DaveInSA]

I’d like to see us try new things, finish strongly and the Lansdowns to have sold up.

[TonyTonyTony]

This will be the ninth season since promotion in 15/16. If we do get to 60 points, that would mean it would be our 4th best season in terms of points since promotion. Win 4/ Draw 4/ Lose 4 gets us to that, and on almost exact current ppg of 1.3

Pretty average all round, no matter how you look at it. Considering the expectation set by the board, you would have to grade that a C Minus.

Anything less than that means we have gone backwards.

Apart from points, i want to see the team on the pitch that played West Ham, Forest and Southampton. That Southampton game showed what we can do when it all clicks.

[Numero Uno]

53 minutes ago, BCFCGav said:

I'm not going to be Manning out this summer pretty much regardless. Owners are the issue. I won't go on my 8th tirade about that!

For me, I'll look down more of a performance lens than a result lens for the remainder of this season since points return is relatively academic now. However, I want to pick out 3 games where I think we need a result above all else, even if we play crap.

Cardiff on Saturday, as it's a derby. And we could all really do with a lift right now.

Swansea, another derby. 

Stoke. Last game of the season so a chance to take some feel-good into the summer. And we could relegate one of the shiny 'former prem teams' that the media/Sky love so much, which would just be really funny.

All the rest, we can focus on getting Manning-ball instilled into the squad and identify changes the squad may need in the summer.

If we lose all three of my pinpointed matches. Painful but so be it. I'll still want Manning to be given the summer. The problems are above his head. 

Agreed, it feels like the solution on here is to get rid of the monkey and keep the organ grinders. Not sure how that improves anything. It seems to be a given that if we were to bin Manning we would bring in better…I wouldn’t bet ten pence on that tbh.

If we use the argument that Nige steadied the ship but progress was too slow who is out there that could fast track what he was doing with know how AND fits in with the compliant, non boat rocking style that the hierarchy clear prefer?

[Simon bristol]

I really cant see anyway hes getting fired, unless we literally collapse and get relegated, or look like its possible with a couple of games to go…   And until we get the good number 9 and a decent number 10, nothing will change anyway.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

Agreed, it feels like the solution on here is to get rid of the monkey and keep the organ grinders. Not sure how that improves anything. It seems to be a given that if we were to bin Manning we would bring in better…I wouldn’t bet ten pence on that tbh.

If we use the argument that Nige steadied the ship but progress was too slow who is out there that could fast track what he was doing with know how AND fits in with the compliant, non boat rocking style that the hierarchy clear prefer?

I don’t overly disagree but I don’t think it’s binary.

I don’t think the organ grinders are going anywhere, regrettably. So the question has to be whether Liam is doing/will do as well as anyone could, or whether someone else could reasonably do better. Just because he’s here, it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t roll the dice if he doesn’t show enough to give confidence that he can do the job long term.

The organ grinders got the appointment of Liam wrong. He’s a coach who needs to rebuild the squad to how he wants to play and is reticent to play youth (historically). Doesn’t make him a bad coach, but does make him an appointment not aligned with the clubs position and strategy. You either follow that path down and rip up your strategy for another reset, or you take a brave decision.

I’ve got no confidence in Tinnion picking the next manager. But that in itself isn’t a reason to retain someone who seems to be the opposite of what the club wanted both short term (kick onto playoffs) or long term (youth development)

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

That Southampton game showed what we can do when it all clicks.

And yet “clicking” was a million miles from “front foot, high press, forward thinking, attack minded football”.  It wasn’t possession-based.  It was “get into a low block and hit them on the counter” wasn’t it?  That’s not me being facetious, it’s what happened / how we played.

Yet, it was bloody exciting.  I, like many, was buzzing coming away from the ground, so much so, I tried to watch the whole game back on sky (dozed off - not in boredom - by halftime).

And you might argue, West Ham was similar.