Mr Popodopolous Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 (edited) PL generally seem weak as water. They should in such a case have hammered the point about recklessness. In the Appeal they should hammer that point if possible. As I said above the Football League actually have Appealed multiple cases in recent years when they were not happy with the outcome. They got aspects of the Sheffield Wednesday one a bit wrong ie the bad faith bit but.. Edited March 26 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 (edited) Well I had more sympathy with Nottingham Forest vs Everton due to the sheer size etc but the Nottingham Forest Chair or the Supporters Trust ie Organisations who should know better, reportedly said on SSN that their breach was only there for 2 months?? I expect it from regular fans maybe but Chair of a Supporters Trust should know better. Or worse knows better but is feeding it. Edited March 26 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 (edited) Some of the takes in this... https://nffctrust.org/further-statement-and-analysis-of-profit-and-sustainability-rules/ There is a wider Regulatory debate to be had for another day but... It's basic Accounting!! End of May for e.g. Wolves, end of June for Nottingham Forest and end of July for e.g. Burnley. This is a fairly warped take. Especially the two months bit. They broke the Upper Loss limit to 2023 and possibly 2022- stayed up and won playoffs respectively. Edited March 26 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretSam Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 17 hours ago, pillred said: Has anybody who's appealed ever NOT had their punishment cut? it seems to me that you get an 8-point deduction appeal, and immediately it's reduced to 4. I think it should be 'double or quits' - if you lose the appeal, the punishment is doubled; you win, it's all wiped. And there should be VAR on all decisions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 (edited) The 2 months is just bollocks. They had a deadline and a number to hit, they missed it therefore they failed. They had a generous 3 year target albeit some big EFL loss in 2021-22. It's sophistry or he doesn't fully get it.. either way Head of a Supporters Trust should really be better briefed. Edited March 26 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: The Plea Deal thing maybe a myth or a supposition but the PL themselves should've Appealed I'd say. They had the right. What people maybe conflating is An Agreed Decision and a Plea Deal. You can't Appeal an Agreed Decision. The bizarre thing is Forest asked for either no points deduction or a minimum points deduction and they got what they essentially wanted. Another question I've got is that obviously they recieved a discount on the points deduction by 'pleading guilty' and by cooperating. But now they are appealing. Surely that discount they recieved for cooperating should now be void as they are no longer cooperating. There is now a real risk the season is going to end with a * against the final table whilst we await the outcome of their appeal. I'm not sure that's worthy of receiving a discount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 17 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said: The bizarre thing is Forest asked for either no points deduction or a minimum points deduction and they got what they essentially wanted. Another question I've got is that obviously they recieved a discount on the points deduction by 'pleading guilty' and by cooperating. But now they are appealing. Surely that discount they recieved for cooperating should now be void as they are no longer cooperating. There is now a real risk the season is going to end with a * against the final table whilst we await the outcome of their appeal. I'm not sure that's worthy of receiving a discount. I assume they wanted lower. That guy from the Supporters Trust says they were in beach for 2 no the and this is a bizarre take. Either that or it is some form of protest v the Premier League as they were quite scathing about them in their Statement last week. The Premier League possibly could have Appealed themselves on the grounds of leniency? I believe that would be for the Appeal Panel/New Commission as to whether the -2 is now Void. Appealing isn't necessarily the same but the optics make it seem a farce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kit Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 Surely the precedence from Bristol Rovers only being in the bottom 2 for 30 minutes of a season and still being relegated from the football league should stand here. It is a about as strong an argument to say they shouldn't be punished for a breach because they were only in a breach for a little while whilst benefitting for the whole of the breach period with the services of all the players they overspent on. Fact is they were in breach at the exact time that the rules say they shouldn't be in breach. Are Forest suggesting that the sale proceeds should be taken out of their 2023/24 numbers so 2 more years down the line they have an extra £xm of headroom so they can get double the benefit from the sale as well if they want the punishment gone for 22/23. There is a lot of mental gymnastics that seems to be going on from reporters, fans and clubs arguing against these punishments. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 (edited) Mental gymnastics is the killer line here. There really are. At first Nottingham Forest seemed relatively willing to take it on the chin at least a lot more than Everton. Yeah they had the opportunity as all clubs in the PL at least do to maintain their position in thr League and yet to get in line by June 30th. They failed to do this. Think £10-15m, maybe £17.5m the headroom added from selling Johnson when they did. The bits I do find interesting are Covid losses and Promotion Bonuses.. 1) Where do Fulham stand if you don't exclude Promotion Bonuses from the calculations. Especially as they've yoyoed and Bournemouth too. 2) It seemed to decisively set a cap of £2.5m for 2021-22 numbers after further analysis and deliberation between the 2 Leagues. Nottingham Forest sought to argue £9-10m more in 2021-22 especially. Edited March 26 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 (edited) Just thinking about it and tbis isn't club specific. A system whereby you can keep the advantage of an overspend during the season then scramble to compliance by end if June through Player Sales is mad. Or miss it and get docked months later and another unrelated side/sides benefit from the breach. Far better to have some forward planning like the Football League is moving towards and sanctions during the season where the 3 year threshold is crossed if at all possible.. Far worse if clubs win titles, get into Europe, Promotion/Relegation etc and benefit or lose out due to the retrospective angle. Edited March 26 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 I'd be tempted to say automatic relegation for FFP breaches and for Administration would focus minds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 28 Report Share Posted March 28 (edited) Had they followed the PL formula, Nottingham Forest would have got 13 points according to this and Everton 9 or 10. https://www.footballinsider247.com/nottingham-forest-richard-masters-wanted-a-13-point-deduction-kieran-maguire/ Probably less the 2 for mitigation? I like the idea of 6 for the baseline plus 1 per £5m..it provides certainty. Either way the process lacks a floor, and appears to be in the lap of the Gods somewhat. Edited March 28 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 Ornstein and Percy reporting that the Appeal has been rejected and-4 it remains. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenred Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Ornstein and Percy reporting that the Appeal has been rejected and-4 it remains. Quite right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 1 minute ago, lenred said: Quite right! Agreed. Hopefully that means the PL Written Reasons will be out sometime today, struggling to see their grounds for Appeal tbh- they got 1/3 off for excellent cooperation- can't present new evidence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Ornstein and Percy reporting that the Appeal has been rejected and-4 it remains. Does this affect their current league position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenred Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Agreed. Hopefully that means the PL Written Reasons will be out sometime today, struggling to see their grounds for Appeal tbh- they got 1/3 off for excellent cooperation- can't present new evidence. They would’ve just been trying it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said: Does this affect their current league position? I think this is the table including all deductions. Edited May 7 by 1960maaan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 5 minutes ago, 1960maaan said: I think this is the table including all deductions. Man City should be bottom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 4 minutes ago, BigTone said: Man City should be bottom If they ever get around to moving on the charges they should be half way down League 1 . 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said: Does this affect their current league position? Means they stay where they are. 45 minutes ago, lenred said: They would’ve just been trying it on. Agreed. Freeish hit and they (Plus Everton case 2) perhaps lucky the PL didn't Appeal in pursuit of more points too- Football League went through a phase of Appealing although this is a landmark for the PL in the sense of a failed Appeal. Edited May 7 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 Forest are pretty much safe anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 On 18/03/2024 at 15:22, supercidered said: Man City tribunal date has been set but not been made public. Next year, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 12 minutes ago, 1960maaan said: If they ever get around to moving on the charges they should be half way down League 1 . Should be taking FGR place 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 The Forest appeal failed, I've not been following this but does this mean the 4 points are taken this season with 2 games to go? Or is this for next season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 8 minutes ago, Spike said: The Forest appeal failed, I've not been following this but does this mean the 4 points are taken this season with 2 games to go? Or is this for next season? In effect. *When deduction/sanction handed down, it kicks in with immediate effect. Hence the-4 in mid March. *Only post a successful Appeal can it be removed or amended. This Appeal seems to have been unsuccessful so the -4 which was put there in mid March remains as it was. No change to the points or table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Geoff Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 14 minutes ago, Spike said: The Forest appeal failed, I've not been following this but does this mean the 4 points are taken this season with 2 games to go? Or is this for next season? Already deducted. They were trying to get a couple back. Doesn't affect the current league table in any way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midred Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 Will they get another 4 for criticising VAR on twitter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 3 minutes ago, Midred said: Will they get another 4 for criticising VAR on twitter? More likely they will claim that the Appeal Board Chair is a Luton fan. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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