Forest deducted 4 points

[Cole Not Gas]

After the Everton debacle; lose ten points, get some back, here we go again, BBC confirm Forest are to lose 4 but then have another day in court to contest the deduction. If Leicester go up they could be deducted up to 10 points before their season starts - so maybe they will deliberately lose to us next Friday and take the hit this season.

Again, no mention of 155 charges against Man City

Wasnt it great when a goal given by the ref was a goal (no VAR) and when the teams who had most points went up and the teams with the least points went down? Now we are watching EPL and EFL Farce shows every year

[Sir Geoff]

6 minutes ago, Cole Not Gas said:

After the Everton debacle; lose ten points, get some back, here we go again, BBC confirm Forest are to lose 4 but then have another day in court to contest the deduction. If Leicester go up they could be deducted up to 10 points before their season starts - so maybe they will deliberately lose to us next Friday and take the hit this season.

Again, no mention of 155 charges against Man City

Wasnt it great when a goal given by the ref was a goal (no VAR) and when the teams who had most points went up and the teams with the least points went down? Now we are watching EPL and EFL Farce shows every year

If they contest the 4 points then that's crazy. I heard from a reliable source that they would receive a more lenient penalty if they agreed not to appeal.

I was therefore expecting to see a 3 point deduction and no appeal.

[supercidered]

Man City tribunal date has been set but not been made public. 

[22A]

8 minutes ago, Cole Not Gas said:

After the Everton debacle; lose ten points, get some back, here we go again, BBC confirm Forest are to lose 4 but then have another day in court to contest the deduction. If Leicester go up they could be deducted up to 10 points before their season starts - so maybe they will deliberately lose to us next Friday and take the hit this season. Again, no mention of 155 charges against Man City

That's because Man C are "A Big Club". Remember when Alan Sugar was in charge at Spurs? They were deducted 24 points for some reason. Alan S appealed against this and had the deduction reduced to twelve points. He still wasn't happy, so appealed again and ended up with zero points deduction.

[ExiledAjax]

10 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

If they contest the 4 points then that's crazy. I heard from a reliable source that they would receive a more lenient penalty if they agreed not to appeal.

I was therefore expecting to see a 3 point deduction and no appeal.

It's -3 for the initial breach, which Forest accepted. Then a further -3 for the circumstances and size of the breach (basically them holding off on selling Johnson and a relative breach 77% larger than Everton's).

Then they got 2 back as mitigation because they co-operated with the investigation.

18 minutes ago, Cole Not Gas said:

Again, no mention of 155 115 charges against Man City

Why would a decision in the Forest case, or any article reporting it, mention a completely different case dealing with a completely different alleged offence, and being considered totally separately from this one.

Don't worry, Everton's case and appeal are mentioned extensively throughout the Forest piece.

18 minutes ago, Cole Not Gas said:

the teams who had most points went up and the teams with the least points went down

This will still happen.

Edited March 18 by ExiledAjax

[Show Me The Money!]

They really won’t want to be finding Man City of being guilty as that brings the whole premier league management into question if the multi premier league champions are found to have been cheating and all the implications that would follow around that and Champions League etc.

 My guess is they will do there absolute most to not find them guilty of most of those charges and just give them a slap on the wrist

[lenred]

Quite bloody right they got deducted.   Should’ve been more.   Taking the piss with their ‘why should we balance the books when they are due if we can make more money afterwards’ excuse.   Hope they go down.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, lenred said:

Quite bloody right they got deducted.   Should’ve been more.   Taking the piss with their ‘why should we balance the books when they are due if we can make more money afterwards’ excuse.   Hope they go down.  

Agreed, mostly.

The only small challenge I'd make would be really both Everton and Nottingham Forest probably merit relegation for their Financial Management but such is the relative weakness of in particular Burnley and Sheffield United, only one at most might drop.

Who of the 2 therefore then merits the drop more (for FFP reasons).

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.premierleague.com/news/3936397

Statement with Written Reasons contained therein. Looking forward to a quick read.. 

£34.5m overspend??

Edited March 18 by Mr Popodopolous

[lenred]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agreed, mostly.

The only small challenge I'd make would be really both Everton and Nottingham Forest probably merit relegation for their Financial Management but such is the relative weakness of in particular Burnley and Sheffield United, only one at most might drop.

Who of the 2 therefore then merits the drop more (for FFP reasons).

Forest.  Their constant bleating about their overspending penalty and how unjust it is is bad enough. But add in the constant moaning about refereeing decisions they have had (and actually bringing in Clattenburg to challenge them and then moaning even more when refs won’t engage with him!) makes me just want them to go.  Never liked them since Amici / Calderwood etc season so sod ‘em!

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

https://www.premierleague.com/news/3936397

Statement with Written Reasons contained therein. Looking forward to a quick read.. 

£34.5m overspend??

Yes but got 2 points back for being helpful. What a piss take!! If I was an Everton fan I’d be screwing. 

Edited March 18 by lenred
Typos

[myol'man]

The final appeal results date for both Forest and Everton is a week after the season finishes!

You couldn't make this sh it up

[Numero Uno]

Just enough to relegate Luton.

[Mr Popodopolous]

£34.5m Overspend is ridiculous and 4 points is very lax on the face.

Interesting snippet(s) so far.

1) The costs of Promotion were not deemed to be excluded from the PSR. Which calls Bournemouth and Fulham and if we go further back many more into question IMO. Fulham on a few occasions?

2) For PSR, £2.5m for 2021-22 absolutely seems to be the Cap (they argued £11-12m as we recall).

Edited March 18 by Mr Popodopolous

[GrahamC]

6 minutes ago, lenred said:

Forest.  Their constant bleating about their overspending penalty and how unjust it is is bad enough. But add in the constant moaning about refereeing decisions they have had (and actually bringing in Clattenburg to challenge them and then moaning even more when refs won’t engage with him!) makes me just want them to go.  Never liked them since Amici / Calderwood etc season so sod ‘em!

Yes but got 2 points back for being helpful. What a piss take!! If I was an Everton fan I’d be screwing. 

This.

Plus their owner being a massive crook, who has to be about as “fit & proper” a person to own an English club as Roman Abramovich was.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, myol'man said:

The final appeal results date for both Forest and Everton is a week after the season finishes!

You couldn't make this sh it up

In all honesty it isn't as unprecedented as it sounds.

Our PL centric media may make it sound so but in recent times we've had..

1) Derby and the Interchangeable Fixture List, 2021.

2) Macclesfield safe but not safe when EFL win on Appeal the suspended portion of the Points Deduction activated. 2020, in the Covid Period.

3) Wigan and their Appeal vs-12 for Administration. Force Majeure, correctly lost- -12 upheld. Also 2020, in the Covid Period.

It is only a few days after the last game anyway and maybe should even incentivise clubs to not try and drag it out 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I reckon Nottingham Forest based on some of that early reading but subtracting the Promotion Bonuses breached it in the Promotion season or would have if no sale by June 30th 2022 had they stayed down.

Maybe by £4-5m.

£5-10m?

Quite how they got down to £3m for the Covid Period but up to £40m for 2021-22..

I know Adjusted Earnings don't align to the Accounts as such but some of these don't make sense. Are we therefore excluding the debt write off in 2019-20 and 2020-21 because I'm quite sure EFL Regs do not lower losses off the back of it 

Edited March 18 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

One thing for sure, provided the PL don't Appeal we can cross off any legal cases vs Nottingham Forest as such a breach deduction wouldn't have relegated them in the final analysis, unless Everton get zero and Leicester too.

Edited March 18 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Of course they're moaning.

https://www.nottinghamforest.co.uk/news/2024/march/18/club-statement/

I'm wondering if the PL themselves should Appeal?

[Mr Popodopolous]

John Percy is a Nottingham Forest fan.

One of the excellent Football journalists out there but this seems to blur lines a bit.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/03/18/nottingham-forest-points-deduction-evangelos-marinakis/

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

John Percy is a Nottingham Forest fan.

One of the excellent Football journalists out there but this seems to blur lines a bit.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/03/18/nottingham-forest-points-deduction-evangelos-marinakis/

Try Barney Ronay as an alternative:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/mar/18/supporters-should-blame-club-owners-not-the-rules-for-points-deductions

[Show Me The Money!]

Forest’s excuses are weak as rules are rules but you can understand the frustration for any team going up the prem and trying to stay up. Sheffield Utd and Burnley showing what tends to happen if you don’t try and compete financially.
 

I’m an Everton fan as well as City so I’d obviously prefer them to go down over Everton, but I get why some fans would think Everton should go down. They pissed away a lot of money trying to chase the European dream buying lots of players after every manager sacking (A warning to us who have done similar but on a smaller scale and narrowly avoided breaking FFP ourselves).

I could take Everton going down if it would help them reset and get there shit back in order but the big worry for Evertonians is that if they go down they will go into financial meltdown.

Plus you don’t want to be in the Championship or league 1 for that matter with a 52,000 brand spanking new stadium

[Mr Popodopolous]

53 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Try Barney Ronay as an alternative:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/mar/18/supporters-should-blame-club-owners-not-the-rules-for-points-deductions

Thanks.

For me, the FFP starting point of -6 and no Upper points limit of 1 point per £5m would be a some way to go. Subject to mitigation and aggravation of course. This is just chaos, a loss markedly higher and yet 2 lower..3 and 3 -2..

Plus a Lower Loss Limit ceiling overspendt by more in % terms and limit plus expenditure ie £61m + x vs £105m + x. Then again I thought Promotion Bonuses were excluded?? (Plus debt write offs at the other end).

24 minutes ago, Show Me The Money! said:

Forest’s excuses are weak as rules are rules but you can understand the frustration for any team going up the prem and trying to stay up. Sheffield Utd and Burnley showing what tends to happen if you don’t try and compete financially.
 

I’m an Everton fan as well as City so I’d obviously prefer them to go down over Everton, but I get why some fans would think Everton should go down. They pissed away a lot of money trying to chase the European dream buying lots of players after every manager sacking (A warning to us who have done similar but on a smaller scale and narrowly avoided breaking FFP ourselves).

I could take Everton going down if it would help them reset and get there shit back in order but the big worry for Evertonians is that if they go down they will go into financial meltdown.

Plus you don’t want to be in the Championship or league 1 for that matter with a 52,000 brand spanking new stadium

It is hard to say really, personally as someone with no dog in the fight except strongly in favour of FFP regs I'd say that compliant clubs should have the best possible chance of staying up and or prospering.

At least theoretically possible that all 3 Relegated clubs this year could be compliant and 2 of the sides directly above failed last year. Doesn't sit well.

Plus rowing back, last year possible that 20th and 19th complied, 16th, 17th and maybe 18th breached. We know 16th and 17th did, Leicester remains to be seen.

Burnley absolutely complied in 2021-22 and finished 4 points off Everton. Leeds seemed to comply too.

I can understand it from one level but the Sanctioning or otherwise illogical though it may sound has to or should not take so much Account of individual club circs or potential for a downward trajectory. There are 3 if not 4 Objectives to these cases and the Everton one may have fulfilled it better than the Nottingham Forest one..

*Punishment- -6 is worse than -4.

*Deterrence-EFL FFP measures seem better for this to date.

*Vindication- I'd question this. Burnley miles and miles within FFP went down. Wolves sold off 1/4 to 1/3 of their squad last summer and lost Lopetegui into the bargain. Nottingham Forest sanction seems unfeasibly light in some respects. I think the PL FFP Sanctioning us too light anyway.

*Restoring and Upholding Confidence in the League or whatever it is- Absolutely not. Been a shitshow so far, in respect of some of the reasoning.

[North London Red]

6 hours ago, 22A said:

That's because Man C are "A Big Club". Remember when Alan Sugar was in charge at Spurs? They were deducted 24 points for some reason. Alan S appealed against this and had the deduction reduced to twelve points. He still wasn't happy, so appealed again and ended up with zero points deduction.

Pedantry alert, but it was 12 points initially, then reduced to 6, then reduced to 0. 
I think the appeal was made by Sugar on the grounds the irregularities were committed under previous owners. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I did read that the PL wanted 8 for Nottingham Forest...I wonder if there is any chance they would/should Appeal?

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

It's a farce as things stand with owners considering violations of FFP a risk worth taking. Clubs will continue to gamble and break the rules hoping they won't be caught but will fess up if they are for a lenient penalty. The system isn't working for anyone, the owners, the clubs, the footballing authorities or the fans. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

It's a farce as things stand with owners considering violations of FFP a risk worth taking. Clubs will continue to gamble and break the rules hoping they won't be caught but will fess up if they are for a lenient penalty. The system isn't working for anyone, the owners, the clubs, the footballing authorities or the fans. 

IMO.

The -10 for Everton was an excellent benchmark.

-6, to some extent.

-4? Not especially. Particularly given the rise of the breach and the escalating nature of it even exceeding the major rise in revenue post Promotion.

The EFL system of Points, more real time monitoring, Soft Embargo, Business Plan etc yes that is a lot better. Provided these are enforced in a correct and timely manner.

(Think Nottingham Forest may have broke EFL Regs too but it is hard to say).

Edited March 18 by Mr Popodopolous

[exAtyeoMax]

 

[kiwicolin]

They should do what the Scottish FA did to Rangers.  Demote them to the bottom of there football league. They had to come up from the bottom and reorganise the whole club. They were promoted each season.  

Unfortunately that will never happen . 

Another club that should be looked at is Manchester United !. 

[Laner]

16 minutes ago, kiwicolin said:

They should do what the Scottish FA did to Rangers.  Demote them to the bottom of there football league. They had to come up from the bottom and reorganise the whole club. They were promoted each season.  

Unfortunately that will never happen . 

Another club that should be looked at is Manchester United !. 

I agree something should happen but doesn't that make a bit of a farse to the lower leagues for a couple of seasons? One giant club wins everything, effectively reducing the promotion spots for all the other clubs. 

[Midred]

Wasn't it Forest who went all out for promotion with expensive loans and then were using the excuse  that they had "lost" 10 or more players at the end of the season and had to go shopping for another overblown squad?