Forest deducted 4 points

[Monkeh]

People need to stop bringing up the man City case to beat the epl with, its a completely different situation that's be faught by man City's state back lawyers  it's going to take time

[Mr Popodopolous]

There is one I don't get here.

If Promotion Bonuses aren't exempt then surely some other clubs are also in breach??

[Mr Popodopolous]

Apologies for the source but it appears that Nottingham Forest could be set to breach again potentially this season.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/26784986/nottingham-forest-another-points-deduction-premier-league-sell/

Edited March 19 by Mr Popodopolous

[Markthehorn]

Brentford, Brighton etc have shown you can stay up in the first season without having to go overboard with the spending.

But maybe that time has past now and teams do need to spend big,

Forest's main problem when they first came up was they had a lot of loan players that needed replacing.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Brentford still have quite a lot of their Championship players in and around the first squad.

Brentford granted are being hit horribly by injuries this year but off the top of my head.. 

Pinnock, Henry

Jensen, Norgaard, Janelt

Toney, Mbeumbo- Plus the return of Maupay

Raya loaned out, Jansson was there for a time too- I'm sure there are others.

Edited March 19 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just checked. They also had Canos, still have DaSilva.

What I'd call lesser players like Roerslev, Ghoddos.

[SecretSam]

22 hours ago, 22A said:

That's because Man C are "A Big Club". Remember when Alan Sugar was in charge at Spurs? They were deducted 24 points for some reason. Alan S appealed against this and had the deduction reduced to twelve points. He still wasn't happy, so appealed again and ended up with zero points deduction.

It's because Man City are facing about 500,000 charges, not just a few.

Personally, I'll shed no tears for the Florists, Everton, any of them. Reap what you sow.

[W-S-M Seagull]

21 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

£34.5m Overspend is ridiculous and 4 points is very lax on the face.

Interesting snippet(s) so far.

1) The costs of Promotion were not deemed to be excluded from the PSR. Which calls Bournemouth and Fulham and if we go further back many more into question IMO. Fulham on a few occasions?

2) For PSR, £2.5m for 2021-22 absolutely seems to be the Cap (they argued £11-12m as we recall).

Again I have to say this, where is the deterrent? 

Over spend by 34.5 million which gives a performance advantage and then get a measly points deduction. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Again I have to say this, where is the deterrent? 

Over spend by 34.5 million which gives a performance advantage and then get a measly points deduction. 

Agreed.

Times fwiw says their potential hole to this season about £30m ie they need £30m Profit just to comply by end of June.

I dread to think their position to next year if they are relegated...Johnson already sold for £45-50m pure profit and still they have a potential hole??

Everton got off lightly, maybe the 2nd deduction will redress the balance a bit but it should've occurred last year.

The £34.5m was missing the adjusted limit by 56%. Under EFL Regs that would equate to a 7 point deduction, plus perhaps 2 or 3 for the trajectory.

2 back for exceptional cooperation? 3 or 4 light I'd say.

Re-read, £20-25m perhaps.

Edited March 19 by Mr Popodopolous

[Markthehorn]

Everton will know their fate by April 8th.

 

Edited March 19 by Markthehorn

[Mr Popodopolous]

The EFL Tariff is as follows. Based on that, Nottingham Forest were some 56% over there Upper Loss limit so -12. Then 2 back for exceptional cooperation.

£15m+ over and above £39m constitutes a full 12 point breach, that comes too 38.46%.

You might also add points for the Losses going up each season. After all Everton didn't they get points back for declining losses. Birmingham got +3 for escalating but 10 minimum.

Everton were some 18.57% over the tariff. That equates to £7.24m in EFL terms and a 6 point deduction.

Cannot recall if Aggravating added or subtracted for them.

Everton Breach 2, who knows.

Edited March 19 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Were we to use the PL wished for Tariff.

Everton would get 9 or 10, with the -6 then 1 per £5m. 2 back for improving trends, that is Breach 1.

Nottingham Forest would get 12 or 13, less 2 for exceptional cooperation.

Then into Breach 2, who knows. You'd think the points back for improving trends you couldn't do again. 1 or 2 for cooperation.

Another 6 net maybe?

[bcfcredandwhite]

3 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Again I have to say this, where is the deterrent? 

Over spend by 34.5 million which gives a performance advantage and then get a measly points deduction. 

Agree - that’s just one win and a draw 

They have benefited far more than that. 

[bcfcredandwhite]

On 18/03/2024 at 15:24, 22A said:

That's because Man C are "A Big Club". Remember when Alan Sugar was in charge at Spurs? They were deducted 24 points for some reason. Alan S appealed against this and had the deduction reduced to twelve points. He still wasn't happy, so appealed again and ended up with zero points deduction.

Yes - and at about the same time Swindon Town was found to have made ‘illegal payments to players’ during their promotion season and were forcibly prevented from being promoted. As a small club they didn’t have the finance to fight the ruling. 
I’m not saying Swindon were in the right, but the rules need to apply to everyone equally. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Yes - and at about the same time Swindon Town was found to have made ‘illegal payments to players’ during their promotion season and were forcibly prevented from being promoted. As a small club they didn’t have the finance to fight the ruling. 
I’m not saying Swindon were in the right, but the rules need to apply to everyone equally. 

They weren't just blocked from promotion if memory serves but forcibly relegated on top albeit on Appeal that latter bit was overturned and blocked it was.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Nottingham moaning. 

Not as bad as a ******* Bournemouth fan preaching Financial prudence below though??

Yes he proclaimed a while ago that their 2015 cheating wad levelling the playing field. Hypocrite

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Hypocritical well I won't slam him further but..

The offending Tweet that I recall.

[ExiledAjax]

15 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Nottingham moaning. 

Not as bad as a ******* Bournemouth fan preaching Financial prudence below though??

Yes he proclaimed a while ago that their 2015 cheating wad levelling the playing field. Hypocrite

 

See. This is bullshit from this MP. This letter is a real mess, and it confuses the messaging, and sets fans up to misunderstand the intended role of the regulator and the PL's mechanism for P&S enforcement.

For the record and for anyone reading this:

The Regulator WILL NOT directly enforce P&S breaches.

The Regulator WILL NOT impose points deductions on clubs. 

The Regulator WILL NOT have anything to do with Man City's case.

The Man City case IS TOTALLY SEPARATE from the P&S cases of Everton and Forest. It's not relevant and should not really be discussed in the same breath as those two cases.

Yes it's annoying that the PL has no fixed matrix of points deductions, and so each P&S case is determined on it's merits, yes the timelines are slow compared to the pace of the football season, but those are not things the Regulator is going to fix! Using the regulator in this way is a complete misrepresentation of what it's expected to do, which means fans are wrongly educated, and so will wrongly blame the regulator when a club breaches P&S/SCMP/"FFP" after the regulator is in place.

It's really frustrating that MPs want to use this sort of thing to try and win support and votes with mixed messaging, incorrect explanation of bills, and generally flawed letter like this.

How are we supposed to have confidence in these people when they debate the Football Governance Bill if they apparently don't even understand what it is aiming to do.

Edited March 20 by ExiledAjax

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

See. This is bullshit from this MP. This letter is a real mess, and it confuses the messaging, and sets fans up to misunderstand the intended role of the regulator and the PL's mechanism for P&S enforcement.

For the record and for anyone reading this:

The Regulator WILL NOT directly enforce P&S breaches.

The Regulator WILL NOT impose points deductions on clubs. 

The Regulator WILL NOT have anything to do with Man City's case.

The Man City case IS TOTALLY SEPARATE from the P&S cases of Everton and Forest. It's not relevant and should not really be discussed in the same breath as those two cases.

Yes it's annoying that the PL has no fixed matrix of points deductions, and so each P&S case is determined on it's merits, yes the timelines are slow compared to the pace of the football season, but those are not things the Regulator is going to fix! Using the regulator in this way is a complete misrepresentation of what it's expected to do, which means fans are wrongly educated, and so will wrongly blame the regulator when a club breaches P&S/SCMP/"FFP" after the regulator is in place.

It's really frustrating that MPs want to use this sort of thing to try and win support and votes with mixed messaging, incorrect explanation of bills, and generally flawed letter like this.

How are we supposed to have confidence in these people when they debate the Football Governance Bill if they apparently don't even understand what it is aiming to do.

The neck of that Bournemouth fan though wow.

However I totally agree, there was a Report or Headline last year that the Regulator wouldn't enforce Points Deductions. Some Everton fans took that wilfully or otherwise as believing that their case should be therefore be shelved, reading the headline or cherrypicking.

I also remember Derby MPs kicking off in 2021 during their FFP battle with the EFL and Merseyside MPs plus Burnham.

[Superjack]

On 18/03/2024 at 15:13, Cole Not Gas said:

After the Everton debacle; lose ten points, get some back, here we go again, BBC confirm Forest are to lose 4 but then have another day in court to contest the deduction. If Leicester go up they could be deducted up to 10 points before their season starts - so maybe they will deliberately lose to us next Friday and take the hit this season.

Again, no mention of 155 charges against Man City

Wasnt it great when a goal given by the ref was a goal (no VAR) and when the teams who had most points went up and the teams with the least points went down? Now we are watching EPL and EFL Farce shows every year

Something we agree on.

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

The neck of that Bournemouth fan though wow.

However I totally agree, there was a Report or Headline last year that the Regulator wouldn't enforce Points Deductions. Some Everton fans took that wilfully or otherwise as believing that their case should be therefore be shelved, reading the headline or cherrypicking.

I also remember Derby MPs kicking off in 2021 during their FFP battle with the EFL and Merseyside MPs plus Burnham.

The messaging around the regulator has to be crystal clear. Fan buy-in is crucial and we've seen with P&S, with Man City, with Derby, that when messaging isn't clear, fans get angry at the rules and the institutions that seek to enforce them rather than THE ******* BILL/MILLIONAIRES THAT BREAK THEM.

Apologies for the caps.

Honestly this Whittome MP has got me angry here. The neck on HER to try and leverage some support with a letter that reads like it's been written by a 12 year-old entering a competition. I pity the poor people of Nottingham for being represented by her if this is a fair representation of her intelligence.

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

The messaging around the regulator has to be crystal clear. Fan buy-in is crucial and we've seen with P&S, with Man City, with Derby, that when messaging isn't clear, fans get angry at the rules and the institutions that seek to enforce them rather than THE ******* BILL/MILLIONAIRES THAT BREAK THEM.

Apologies for the caps.

Honestly this Whittome MP has got me angry here. The neck on HER to try and leverage some support with a letter that reads like it's been written by a 12 year-old entering a competition. I pity the poor people of Nottingham for being represented by her if this is a fair representation of her intelligence.

Agree with every word. Bandwagon jumping or worse doesn't know.

Fan buy-in is crucial as you say and not just that and love it when they spend spend spend. Not all but plenty. Did you get the chance to check Twitter between say August 1st word and Feb 10th 2021, key word search Dai Yongge. 

Chelsea fans are now moaning via their Supporters Trust. These are issues I have some sympathy on hut it is tempered by my wondering whether they called into question £1bn gross spend since summer 2022.

I could go on..you expect better from Supporters Trusts.

Edited March 20 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'm gonna try and find some stuff from Reading Supporters Trust to see if they raised any alarm in the 150-200% of turnover on wages era.

@ExiledAjax dunno how closely enfsgef you are with it atm but do hope that if SL or whoever was spending 150-200% or even more of turnover alone for more than a year thst the SC&T would raise alarm.

Edited March 20 by Mr Popodopolous

[ExiledAjax]

28 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'm gonna try and find some stuff from Reading Supporters Trust to see if they raised any alarm in the 150-200% of turnover on wages era.

@ExiledAjax dunno how closely enfsgef you are with it atm but do hope that if SL or whoever was spending 150-200% or even more of turnover alone for more than a year thst the SC&T would raise alarm.

Haha. I'm sure at the very least one or two of us on here would mention it to them. 

Hell I'd just email the club directly tbh.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Looks like Nottingham Forest are deciding to Appeal!

https://theathletic.com/5353603/2024/03/25/nottingham-forest-points-deduction-appeal/

[Markthehorn]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Looks like Nottingham Forest are deciding to Appeal!

https://theathletic.com/5353603/2024/03/25/nottingham-forest-points-deduction-appeal/

Likely to get anything cut ?

[pillred]

46 minutes ago, Markthehorn said:

Likely to get anything cut ?

Has anybody who's appealed ever NOT had their punishment cut? it seems to me that you get an 8-point deduction appeal, and immediately it's reduced to 4.

Edited March 25 by pillred

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Markthehorn said:

Likely to get anything cut ?

I struggle to see on what Grounds.

58 minutes ago, pillred said:

Has anybody who's appealed ever NOT had their punishment cut? it seems to me that you get an 8-point deduction appeal, and immediately it's reduced to 4.

The PL themselves if anything should be more robust and willing to Appeal. The EFL Appealed vs  Derby, vs Birmingham (Business Plan case), vs Macclesfield and I think vs Bolton.

The PL have the right, the PL need to prove they are capable of Governing by Appealing if needed.

Yes to your question. Wigan had theirs rejected for Administration, otoh Sheffield Wednesday had theirs halved.

EFL won their cases vs Derby, Macclesfield when Appealing and won a key legal point on the Birmingham Business Plan...oh they had prolonged and multiple litigation via Arbitration with Derby but the PL seem unwilling to get in there and scrap for it.

I would have considered Appealing a -4 as the Governing body.

Edited March 25 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Looks like Nottingham Forest are deciding to Appeal!

https://theathletic.com/5353603/2024/03/25/nottingham-forest-points-deduction-appeal/

Ha so they basically took a plea deal and got a reduced deduction on the understanding the matter would be dealt with swiftly and that they wouldn't appeal. 

They then appeal. 

You couldn't make this crap up. Clubs are taking the right piss. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Ha so they basically took a plea deal and got a reduced deduction on the understanding the matter would be dealt with swiftly and that they wouldn't appeal. 

They then appeal. 

You couldn't make this crap up. Clubs are taking the right piss. 

The Plea Deal thing maybe a myth or a supposition but the PL themselves should've Appealed I'd say. They had the right.

What people maybe conflating is An Agreed Decision and a Plea Deal. You can't Appeal an Agreed Decision.