Sunderland away match thread

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Fontaineofallknowledge said:

That Swansea performance was absolutely fine-we desperately needed a win that day and so we kept it tight and nicked one. You need to take the context of the position we are in, the opposition and the conditions for each match 

Shakes my head.  Doesn’t even warrant a reply. 

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Thing is, even if you include all of Manning's 26 league results, they're really not much worse than Pearson's last 26 games in charge. Maybe by a couple of percent, but that's it

Arghhhhhhh, it’s not Nige v Liam.  It’s about Liam only, versus expectations at the point he’s taken over.

If all you’ve got is “he’s only a tinsy winsy bit worse than Nige”, and you thought Nige was crap, it’s hardly a strong argument is it?

[Ashtongreight]

9 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Thing is, even if you include all of Manning's 26 league results, they're really not much worse than Pearson's last 26 games in charge. Maybe by a couple of percent, but that's it

So the coach that was brought in to improve performances THIS season, has in fact made things worse. Well that was a successful appointment then… not. 

[firstdivision]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Honestly, I won’t know until we see what happens over the rest of this season and the summers ins and outs.

But let’s just assume we get Tins no9 and no10 as per what he’s said as the significant signings and a bit of tit for tat with anyone else who leaves, gets replaced.

All things being equal, I’d expect:

• success to be playoffs
• met expectations to be a bloody good tilt at the playoffs, right in it up to the end(ish)
• failure a plodding season or worse

of course it can’t be as black and white as the above, but you get the gist.  It can’t be a plodding season.  I doubt  that would get him the sack either, I think bottom half would be though.

Nor do I hope it’s 46 games like Swansea’s performance either.

Whatever I think of Conway, losing him is not like losing Scott or Semenyo.

+++

how about you?

I think play-offs is out of reach as we stand (ie before summer recruitment - but it will need something significant to make us top six).  Success next season (for me) is top ten with some exciting performances. 
Failure is flirting with relegation/still looking  over our shoulder with ten games left. 

I think this league is brutal and there will be crap games and some poor performances. (I see myself as a realist.) We should kind of accept that , however frustrating it is.

I’ve no idea whether LM will ‘succeed’ or not, but I have some patience. I never bought the hierarchy’s supposed suggestion that we were capable of top six this season. They didn’t fund a big/strong enough squad for that. I take a lot of what football people say with a pinch of salt.

I can’t stand many of the unequivocal postings on this forum. They lack nuance and context. And I don’t like the personal attacks on LM. But that’s the world we live in: too much social media short-termism and knee-jerk reactions. Thirty years ago we went down the pub after a game, or whatever, and ranted with two or three mates about  a performance. Now we come on here and other sites, and everything is amplified. It’s nuts, frankly. Plus, some people take themselves far too seriously. I’ve hardly posted recently because I can’t be bothered with the aggro. 

Only two Bristol City managers in history have succeeded in getting us into the top division and I don’t even know the name of the first one. Mid-table in the Championship is not the worst place to be. Ten seasons in the Championship have been pretty good compared to many of the other forty-four seasons I’ve witnessed. I’d like to see us in the PL before I die but it’s a damn hard thing to achieve. It needs wisdom, skill, money, patience and luck. I’m not holding my breath. 

I really hate losing and I want every BC manager to succeed. I don’t mind a sacking (ruthless when necessary) but I think LM deserves more time. I’m surprised you’ve nailed your colours this early in his tenure but that’s your prerogative. I’ve seen good and bad under LM and I expect that will continue under him and every other BC manager I’ll see. Because that’s pretty much football life. 

 

[Street red]

1 hour ago, AshtonGreat said:

Recent results suggest otherwise

Not sure a result against Plymouth is anything to get flattered about under foster they offered nothing at all defensive and with Leicester if it wasn't for there poor form and vardys strange and unusual missed chances we would of been dead a buried.  But it in our case we had a chance and finished it.Again today he swapped Conway and wells why do a straight swap change it make things happen unfortunately he didn't. Nothings changed for me still doesn't feel right that he's sitting and coaching our club.

Least he had plenty of time to play champ manager on the way home. 

[Supersonic Robin]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

We still don't know what the "true" Bristol City is. 

1 hour ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Yeah we do, it's stuck somewhere between about 14th in the Championship/second tier, and just a little bit higher than where the Blue Few currently fester in L1. Letting in a little too many, not scoring quite enough. In front of about 12,000 people.

So we're doing alright, as things stand. Manning in (until ....)

And this is exactly the mindset that has kept us there whilst every other club of our size has achieved far more

 

[AshtonGreat]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Arghhhhhhh, it’s not Nige v Liam.  It’s about Liam only, versus expectations at the point he’s taken over.

If all you’ve got is “he’s only a tinsy winsy bit worse than Nige”, and you thought Nige was crap, it’s hardly a strong argument is it?

I was responding directly to the comment that Liam is out of his depth. If his results are more or less the same as Pearson's, does that mean Pearson was out of his depth? 

[AshtonGreat]

7 minutes ago, Street red said:

Not sure a result against Plymouth is anything to get flattered about under foster they offered nothing at all defensive and with Leicester if it wasn't for there poor form and vardys strange and unusual missed chances we would of been dead a buried.  But it in our case we had a chance and finished it.Again today he swapped Conway and wells why do a straight swap change it make things happen unfortunately he didn't. Nothings changed for me still doesn't feel right that he's sitting and coaching our club.

Least he had plenty of time to play champ manager on the way home. 

We should've had a penalty and had good chances ourselves

[maxjak]

3 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

We didn't have any problems defensively. He's had 6 months to sort out our goal scoring issues and has failed to do so.

 We had scored i believe 14 goals in 14 games prior to Manning's appointment, so it     was an on going issue before he   arrived?  It will not be resolved until the summer, when we can hopefully recruit a  goalscorer or two.  Manning cannot conjure up a decent striker out of thin air.....it is unrealistic, and just a illogical   criticism?

[bpexile]

19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Arghhhhhhh, it’s not Nige v Liam.  It’s about Liam only, versus expectations at the point he’s taken over.

If all you’ve got is “he’s only a tinsy winsy bit worse than Nige”, and you thought Nige was crap, it’s hardly a strong argument is it?

Arghhhhhhh this Nige v Liam is still going on isn't it Dave?

For me, I've  nothing against Liam, why wouldn't he take the job?. It's the underhanded manner in which it was done that still hurts me greatly. For the first time in my memory as a City supporter I felt we were in very good hands with Nige & his team, what the outcome would have been, sadly we'll never know will we?.

[redsquirrel]

no point sacking manning, we would only get another cheap league one manager with a few results on his cv that will say yes to anything to get a crack in the championship. the people above him got the personality they want, relying on tinnion to teach him how to manage it. with his management skills leading the way now, i fear we are in deep shit

[Ashtongreight]

4 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

I was responding directly to the comment that Liam is out of his depth. If his results are more or less the same as Pearson's, does that mean Pearson was out of his depth? 

That’s academic, he was supposed to be a better coach that would achieve more this season with our present squad. By your own admission, so far he’s failed, we’ve actually performed worse. Based on those facts why would anyone believe he’s the man to take us forward,  I genuinely don’t understand. 

[Kibs]

7 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

I think play-offs is out of reach as we stand (ie before summer recruitment - but it will need something significant to make us top six).  Success next season (for me) is top ten with some exciting performances. 
Failure is flirting with relegation/still looking  over our shoulder with ten games left. 

I think this league is brutal and there will be crap games and some poor performances. (I see myself as a realist.) We should kind of accept that , however frustrating it is.

I’ve no idea whether LM will ‘succeed’ or not, but I have some patience. I never bought the hierarchy’s supposed suggestion that we were capable of top six this season. They didn’t fund a big/strong enough squad for that. I take a lot of what football people say with a pinch of salt.

I can’t stand many of the unequivocal postings on this forum. They lack nuance and context. And I don’t like the personal attacks on LM. But that’s the world we live in: too much social media short-termism and knee-jerk reactions. Thirty years ago we went down the pub after a game, or whatever, and ranted with two or three mates about  a performance. Now we come on here and other sites, and everything is amplified. It’s nuts, frankly. Plus, some people take themselves far too seriously. I’ve hardly posted recently because I can’t be bothered with the aggro. 

Only two Bristol City managers in history have succeeded in getting us into the top division and I don’t even know the name of the first one. Mid-table in the Championship is not the worst place to be. Ten seasons in the Championship have been pretty good compared to many of the other forty-four seasons I’ve witnessed. I’d like to see us in the PL before I die but it’s a damn hard thing to achieve. It needs wisdom, skill, money, patience and luck. I’m not holding my breath. 

I really hate losing and I want every BC manager to succeed. I don’t mind a sacking (ruthless when necessary) but I think LM deserves more time. I’m surprised you’ve nailed your colours this early in his tenure but that’s your prerogative. I’ve seen good and bad under LM and I expect that will continue under him and every other BC manager I’ll see. Because that’s pretty much football life. 

 

This is a great post. And whilst we should of course aim high, it’s probably the most competitive league in the world. 

Theres not many teams above us that I look at and think “we should really be above them”, and similarly, there are a few below us who I think should probably be doing better, which leads me to believe we’re roughly where we should be right now. 

Losing Semenyo and then Scott, and to not adequately replace them (I know we couldn’t fully replace them, they’re too good) led me to the conclusion very early that we’d be mid table at best. Had we replaced them, I think we could possibly be abit closer to the play-offs. 

We’ve all watched loads of non City Championship games which are absolutely turgid, but when City are involved, it seems unacceptable. It’s just the league we’re in, good days, bad days, average players, very little between anyone on any given day. 

I think Mannings tenure has been underwhelming, but more in terms of performances than outcome - I know many will disagree, but I really think we’re pretty much where we should be with the “quality” of our squad. 

Will be a tougher division IMO next season, so without some real quality recruitment, I don’t see us mounting a top 6 challenge next year either I’m afraid - whoever is in charge. 

[Ashtongreight]

19 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Edited April 6 by Ashtongreight

[AshtonGreat]

1 minute ago, Ashtongreight said:

That’s academic, he was supposed to be a better coach that would achieve more this season with our present squad. By your own admission, so far he’s failed, we’ve actually performed worse. Based on those facts why would anyone believe he’s the man to take us forward,  I genuinely don’t understand. 

I don't think Manning's been great by any means. I think he's done alright - especially considering the pressure he's been under from many fans. For me, it's too early to say whether he'll take us forward, and I'm prepared to give him the summer to find out. To be honest, I don't hold out much hope of anyone doing it

[Ashtongreight]

21 minutes ago, maxjak said:

 We had scored i believe 14 goals in 14 games prior to Manning's appointment, so it     was an on going issue before he   arrived?  It will not be resolved until the summer, when we can hopefully recruit a  goalscorer or two.  Manning cannot conjure up a decent striker out of thin air.....it is unrealistic, and just a illogical   criticism?

Equally it’s not a criticism of Nige either, and as we’ve already established our defensive record was better under NP than it is under LM what was the point of the change? 
 

I get we are where we are,  but as of yet LM hasn’t demonstrated he’s the man to take us forward, not to me at least. 

[1960maaan]

40 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

I was responding directly to the comment that Liam is out of his depth. If his results are more or less the same as Pearson's, does that mean Pearson was out of his depth? 

Context, Pearson was brought in to completely overhaul the Club, Manning was brought in to take the current squad onto a level it should be at . The owners thought we were under performing.

I liked Pearson , I thought he should have been given until the summer at least , but he's gone.

Now I judge the team on what they do. I don't give a shit that Jon said top 6 side , I do care about trajectory . I don't see any forward momentum at the moment . 
The owners didn't take into account that we had the weakest squad out just before  Pearson was binned , how does that equate now ? It was really unlucky that Dickie was out , I think his leadership could have meant the difference. 
Last game I thought his half time Subs showed that front foot leadership we wanted. Today was back to the 60 ish minute, like for like Subs . Not inspiring .

More or less the same as Pearson, by the Boards ideas is under performing . Just saying.

 

[mozo]

7 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Context, Pearson was brought in to completely overhaul the Club, Manning was brought in to take the current squad onto a level it should be at . The owners thought we were under performing.

I liked Pearson , I thought he should have been given until the summer at least , but he's gone.

Now I judge the team on what they do. I don't give a shit that Jon said top 6 side , I do care about trajectory . I don't see any forward momentum at the moment . 
The owners didn't take into account that we had the weakest squad out just before  Pearson was binned , how does that equate now ? It was really unlucky that Dickie was out , I think his leadership could have meant the difference. 
Last game I thought his half time Subs showed that front foot leadership we wanted. Today was back to the 60 ish minute, like for like Subs . Not inspiring .

More or less the same as Pearson, by the Boards ideas is under performing . Just saying.

 

If you want to live in the real world, NP was sacked because the board didn't want to work with him and they saw an opportunity. Just saying.

[Ashtongreight]

The elephant in the room I believe is that NP wasn’t sacked for an underperforming squad, but for other reasons. Reasons that we’ll never find out about, the underperforming nonsense was just that, nonsense. 

LM was an ideal candidate as stepping up a league he’s going accept things that a more experienced manager wouldn’t stand for. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, maxjak said:

 We had scored i believe 14 goals in 14 games prior to Manning's appointment, so it     was an on going issue before he   arrived?  It will not be resolved until the summer, when we can hopefully recruit a  goalscorer or two.  Manning cannot conjure up a decent striker out of thin air.....it is unrealistic, and just a illogical   criticism?

You speak of a striker but perhaps the tactics under Manning have played a part in the regression of Conway. Maybe.

The creativity is still variable but we feel less dangerous than we did under NP in certain respects. 

League games, 15 in 14 under NP, became 16 from 15 at the handover stage after Fleming went.

Sykes and Bell had something at times..they certainly chipped in with goals and assists, injuries haven't helped..was hoping Sykes might chip in 5-10 League goals this season back in August.

Haven't looked at shot data for a while..

Edited April 6 by Mr Popodopolous

[mozo]

2 minutes ago, Ashtongreight said:

The elephant in the room I believe is that NP wasn’t sacked for an underperforming squad, but for other reasons. Reasons that we’ll never find out about, the underperforming nonsense was just that, nonsense. 

LM was an ideal candidate as stepping up a league he’s going accept things that a more experienced manager wouldn’t stand for. 

 

Exactly. It's probably to so with a frosty relationship and Nigel's health.

The board and Tinnion will be praying that Manning can pull it out the bag to save their blushes.

And I think that's why some fans ate automatically hostile to Manning. [Note, I only said some, that not all Manning critics].

What would be amazing is for 2024-25 to finally be the season where we aren't absolutely flooded with injuries, so that we can see Manning have a go with his preferred players most weeks. That way we'll really see what he's got.

[mozo]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You speak of a striker but perhaps the tactics under Manning have played a part in the regression of Conway. Maybe.

The creativity is still variable but we feel less dangerous than we did under NP in certain respects. 

League games, 15 in 14 under NP, became 16 from 15 at the handover stage after Fleming went.

Sykes and Bell had something at times..they certainly chipped in with goals and assists, injuries haven't helped..was hoping Sykes might chip in 5-10 League goals this season back in August.

Haven't looked at shot data for a while..

Well, Bell had a good start to the season and then lost his way, and got injured.

Conway started injured, and never really found form.

Wells has been getting limited minutes and has looked fine, but not lethal. 

Nige played a lone striker in a 4-3-3 and we often struggled to create many chances. 

Obviously, we can point to tactical bit and pieces; NP's break away football was often too head down and charge stuff and their brains didn't keep up with their feet a lot of the time. With Manning, I'm sure some would say he's not given players enough license to attack.

For me, the main issue is that we've got young inconsistent players, and the likes of Bell and Mehmeti have the ability to do great things, but not week in week out. 

[Ashtongreight]

5 minutes ago, mozo said:

Exactly. It's probably to so with a frosty relationship and Nigel's health.

The board and Tinnion will be praying that Manning can pull it out the bag to save their blushes.

And I think that's why some fans ate automatically hostile to Manning. [Note, I only said some, that not all Manning critics].

What would be amazing is for 2024-25 to finally be the season where we aren't absolutely flooded with injuries, so that we can see Manning have a go with his preferred players most weeks. That way we'll really see what he's got.

Whilst his health towards the end probably didn’t help, if he’d had a good relationship with the board I’m sure they’d have found a way to accommodate him.
 

I believe they used his bad health as an excuse to accelerate his dismissal, rather than being a genuine issue. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, AshtonGreat said:

I was responding directly to the comment that Liam is out of his depth. If his results are more or less the same as Pearson's, does that mean Pearson was out of his depth? 

Not for me. Depends how you want to judge though.  Results aren’t what I’m judging him on, or should I say not the only thing.  It’s more “complicated” than that.   I’ve written chapter and verse on it for you to know I don’t look at it as simply as points per game comparisons. In fact we’ve long gone past Nige v Liam comparisons, it’s now possible to compare Liam v Liam, ie just see what he himself has done and the direction of travel.

And I do think this job is a bit too big for him unfortunately.

He ain’t going nowhere.  I know that, certainly after the last 3 games.

He may well change my mind.  I might have to eat “humble pie”, albeit not the 3 game / 7 points flavour on offer from @Fontaineofallknowledge earlier.  But it might be that he succeeds for other reasons, e.g. they throw money at him.  Looks like we are just gonna have to wait to find out.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, mozo said:

Well, Bell had a good start to the season and then lost his way, and got injured.

Conway started injured, and never really found form.

Wells has been getting limited minutes and has looked fine, but not lethal. 

Nige played a lone striker in a 4-3-3 and we often struggled to create many chances. 

Obviously, we can point to tactical bit and pieces; NP's break away football was often too head down and charge stuff and their brains didn't keep up with their feet a lot of the time. With Manning, I'm sure some would say he's not given players enough license to attack.

For me, the main issue is that we've got young inconsistent players, and the likes of Bell and Mehmeti have the ability to do great things, but not week in week out. 

Agree with some of that, injuries got in the way of course. Young players do have variable consistency too.

Some gsmes we did, some we didn't. We had from memory good shot data vs Millwall, Hull, Swansea, West Brom, Plymouth and okayish v Stoke.

Injuries were biting by October, vs Ipswich we rallied quite hard last half hour, Cornick post iirc. Shot data is a metric.

Edited April 6 by Mr Popodopolous

[mozo]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Not for me. Depends how you want to judge though.  Results aren’t what I’m judging him on, or should I say not the only thing.  It’s more “complicated” than that.   I’ve written chapter and verse on it for you to know I don’t look at it as simply as points per game comparisons. In fact we’ve long gone past Nige v Liam comparisons, it’s now possible to compare Liam v Liam, ie just see what he himself has done and the direction of travel.

And I do think this job is a bit too big for him unfortunately.

He ain’t going nowhere.  I know that, certainly after the last 3 games.

He may well change my mind.  I might have to eat “humble pie”, albeit not the 3 game / 7 points flavour on offer from @Fontaineofallknowledge earlier.  But it might be that he succeeds for other reasons, e.g. they throw money at him.  Looks like we are just gonna have to wait to find out.

That's totally understandable Dave and a fair pov.

I would just say though that if Manning gets £4m to buy an attacker and £2.5m to buy a creative midfielder, for example, it would still be credit to LM if he got us close to top 6.

[Ashtongreight]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Not for me. Depends how you want to judge though.  Results aren’t what I’m judging him on, or should I say not the only thing.  It’s more “complicated” than that.   I’ve written chapter and verse on it for you to know I don’t look at it as simply as points per game comparisons. In fact we’ve long gone past Nige v Liam comparisons, it’s now possible to compare Liam v Liam, ie just see what he himself has done and the direction of travel.

And I do think this job is a bit too big for him unfortunately.

He ain’t going nowhere.  I know that, certainly after the last 3 games.

He may well change my mind.  I might have to eat “humble pie”, albeit not the 3 game / 7 points flavour on offer from @Fontaineofallknowledge earlier.  But it might be that he succeeds for other reasons, e.g. they throw money at him.  Looks like we are just gonna have to wait to find out.

Unlike you I haven’t fully made up my mind yet, the jury is still out, much like the team he isn’t consistent enough.
 

I hope he does convince me, and prove my doubts were unfounded, because more than anything I want us to be successful 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree with some of that, injuries got in the way of course. Young players do have variable consistency too.

Some gsmes we did, some we didn't. We had from memory good shot data vs Millwall, Hull, Swansea, West Brom, Plymouth and okayish v Stoke.

Injuries were biting by October, vs Ipswich we rallied quite hard last half hour, Cornick post iirc. Shot data is a metric.

DMd you

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Ashtongreight said:

Unlike you I haven’t fully made up my mind yet, the jury is still out, much like the team he isn’t consistent enough.
 

I hope he does convince me, and prove my doubts were unfounded, because more than anything I want us to be successful 

Yep, and it’s unusual for me to go so binary.  But I totally get those who are in-between / undecided, or frankly think he’s great.  I’m comfy with how I got here and why, but I don’t expect everyone (anyone?) to agree with me, or change their mind because of how I explain my view.

5 minutes ago, mozo said:

That's totally understandable Dave and a fair pov.

I would just say though that if Manning gets £4m to buy an attacker and £2.5m to buy a creative midfielder, for example, it would still be credit to LM if he got us close to top 6.

If we get to spend £6.5m on the two players (as you suggest) that Tins says we are after, to add to this squad (plus any replacements for the others we lose) then I think it’s the definition of “credit” that might help me.

I guess that’s why I went with:

- above expectations - playoffs

- met expectations - a bloody good tilt but fall short

- below expectations - mid-table (below top 10, ie 11th or below)

So I’d give him “credit” for “met” and “above”.

Is that kinda what you meant.  Apologies if I’m reading it wrong.  I agree the playoffs is hard task, hence “above”.  But I do expect him to take us forward / progress us next season.

Especially as £6.5m spend would require SL to fund us to an extent he’s said he wanted to stop doing.  So I expect he’d expect a good season too!

[mozo]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, and it’s unusual for me to go so binary.  But I totally get those who are in-between / undecided, or frankly think he’s great.  I’m comfy with how I got here and why, but I don’t expect everyone (anyone?) to agree with me, or change their mind because of how I explain my view.

If we get to spend £6.5m on the two players (as you suggest) that Tins says we are after, to add to this squad (plus any replacements for the others we lose) then I think it’s the definition of “credit” that might help me.

I guess that’s why I went with:

- above expectations - playoffs

- met expectations - a bloody good tilt but fall short

- below expectations - mid-table (below top 10, ie 11th or below)

So I’d give him “credit” for “met” and “above”.

Is that kinda what you meant.  Apologies if I’m reading it wrong.  I agree the playoffs is hard task, hence “above”.  But I do expect him to take us forward / progress us next season.

Especially as £6.5m spend would require SL to fund us to an extent he’s said he wanted to stop doing.  So I expect he’d expect a good season too!

Yeah if we signed two high quality players (and let's imagine they both stay fit for 40 odd games), then sell Conway and replace him too, I still wouldn't be expecting promotion based on what we would have, but I'd definitely expect a notable  improvement on this season, and that inevitably would mean we're in the playoff hunt.