SOTC

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, petehinton said:

I think it’s a combination of his agent, family, and having an insight into the new life his pal (Scott) now has after he moved up to the prem & all that entails. 

The interesting thing is that Scott has been warming the bench for Bournemouth and in fairness he stood out for us a lot more than Conway does. The jump is huge. Conway needs a standout season whether with us or elsewhere before he can even think about getting EPL starts.

[Numero Uno]

52 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Even with bringing Twine in, we struggled to provide Conway with chances. 

Tommy can't score chances if he's not provided with them. 

I've said this lots of times but if you put him in a team like Coventry then he scores 15-20 easily. 

Right now Tommy can potentially move to a lower premier league club or a top 6 side or go north to Scotland and get a huge pay rise. 

I'm not entirely sure those options would be there in 12 months time if us and Tommy have another similar season.

I think Tommy has done the smart thing already for himself by giving himself time to assess all of these options. 

We all would love Tommy to stay but I think our hand is quite weak at this point. 

I look at Conway and on the basis he may want to step up a level what does he bring to the party currently that you would need in the Prem? Blistering pace? No. Outstanding movement? Good but Prem standard? Hold up play? Definitely not. Great technique? Not seeing that. Finishing? Again, good at our level (he does miss a few) but Prem standard, not sure about that.

He needs to work on a number of things to get there, the only question is whether that’s with us or elsewhere. If a nailed on top 6 Champ side wants him (only three or four of those) they will be expecting instant results.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Roe said:

I see people say this a lot but I'm not sure what else the club are supposed to do. You can't force someone to sign a contract, so what do you do? Not play Conway at all going back how far before he signs?

How many other players would you have to sign on longer deals in case they develop well?

It's just an inevitability of football that every club in the world faces.

No, you can’t, but you can tie them in for longer, earlier.  An element of risk, but I’m only talking about the real stars.  I’ll reply further in Silvio’s post below.

There is some risk, I accept that.

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

Dave - I completely understand the perfectly sensible points that you’ve made but those aren’t my main point.

I’m in the same camp as Manning although he was far more subtle in his phrasing than me. I seriously don’t think that Conway is anywhere near as good as many posters on here seem to think and to me he’s overrated. Imo another season or two at City will significantly develop his game should he sign a new deal.

Tbh - from a playing perspective should Conway allow his contract to run down it wouldn’t bother me as much as it did when Semenyo was sold. On many occasions last season City really missed Semenyo’s his pace and power.I can’t see myself thinking that about Conway should he move on.

I don’t think Manning’s words reflect his true thoughts.  He’s just trying to be smart to get an early outcome, whichever way that falls.  He’s probably managing fans expectations too if he leaves, ie trying to play down his importance to us.

He’s probably our most valuable asset, transfer fee wise this summer.  Regardless of yours or my view on his ability.

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

No doubt Conway has improved under Manning. We can all see that.

However - I’m not sure that with the incoming signings the summer that Manning will stick to the one up top strategy. He’ll have a full preseason with an improved squad and it wouldn’t surprise me if he changes to two up top - we’ve seen how one up top has kinda suited the players he’s had but with another striker incoming plus any other additions (Twine?) I can see him changing things to maximise the strengths in his squad.

Has he improved?  I’d say Manning’s system has stifled Tommy.

He's given no indication of moving away from one forward, and he’s been asked that specifically.

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Just on that last bit Dave, there is a degree of what the club could reasonably have done. If I take the last four/five players that have come through (either having been direct from academy or elsewhere) that have played significant minutes then it’s the following:

Scott - Signs start of 2020, contract signed March 2021, improved 4 year deal signed August 2021. New deal offered in Jan 2023

Semenyo - Signs 2017, Turns pro Jan 2018, 4 year deal with 1 year option signed June 2019

Bell - First 3 year deal April 2021 (I think). Signs 3 year deal July 2022, new 3 year deal August 2023

Conway - 3 year deal July 2022 (played 11 times at that point) new deal offered August 2023

With all of those bar the exception of Semenyo we’ve regularly offered new deals to try and keep them here. Ironically the one we did tie down was Semenyo and his probable real breakthrough coincided with the final years of his deal. Scott’s progress was such that he outgrew us quickly so was never signing but I’m not sure what else we could have done. Kind of ditto Conway - we’ve offered a new deal 12 months into a three year deal and most players won’t want 4-5 year deals as that loses them the whip hand in negotiations.

FWIW I think he’s going. I think last summer was a big deal there - not just seeing what his best mate did but also the relative lack of ambition shown - why commit if the club aren’t investing? If he stays it will be because the club do back Liam heavily and he sees an upside, but there’s a reason that deal hadn’t been signed for a year. And I do think he gets in most championship teams squads - I see him probably being a starter for a side in or around the top six.

He’ll have offers. But dispassionately, his record bar penalties isn’t great this season (and for me, not reflective of his true worth), and that, together with the contract, means I think we won’t get a great deal.

Thanks for doing the contract digging.  At its simplest we have Semenyo and Scott 4 year deals rather than 3 year deals, and we reaped a fantastic fee for Scott and a pretty decent one for Semenyo.

That extra year for Conway (and Bell) would’ve given us more bargaining power.

[Sleepy1968]

10 hours ago, fgrsimon said:

A replacement for Mebude shouldn't be too hard to find. Hell I could even put myself forward! I'm 60 but reckon I could manage 30 mins on the pitch, 20 of which were spent running around like a headless chicken...

You wouldn't even have to avoid being in a position to take a pass with noone wanting to pass to you. Easy money.

[RedRoss]

Like most contract issues. I guarantee it's 80% down to money.

Fans always put far too much effort and emotion trying to work out why a player isn't committing to a new contract. Especially when its a good player that's come through the academy. Of course there will be other factors i.e stepping up (new league) or better chances of progressing or style of play, new manager, fresh challenge ect but mostly it'll be money.

I don't blame TC, from his perspective I can see pros/cons of him staying or leaving. If he's set on moving he needs to decide because from our perspective we need to move on and maximise the most from his exit. I'm glad LM said what he did, I hope behind the scenes we've set a firm date on his decision and then look at offers for him.

Edited May 15 by RedRoss

[chinapig]

42 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Has he improved?  I’d say Manning’s system has stifled Tommy.

Exactly. The lone striker role doesn't maximise Tommy's potential, especially when he gets limited support and service.

Wasn't he told that we would be getting behind the defence to supply him with pull backs? How much sign has there been of that?

Unless there is a change in Manning's approach I wouldn't blame Tommy for looking for a club that will play to his strengths.

[Steve Watts]

3 hours ago, Robbored said:

No doubt Conway has improved under Manning. We can all see that.

However - I’m not sure that with the incoming signings the summer that Manning will stick to the one up top strategy. He’ll have a full preseason with an improved squad and it wouldn’t surprise me if he changes to two up top - we’ve seen how one up top has kinda suited the players he’s had but with another striker incoming plus any other additions (Twine?) I can see him changing things to maximise the strengths in his squad.

OK, I'll bite.  On what basis do you think Manning has improved his game?  His impact has been massively reduced due to Manning's tactics, which do not suit Tommy.  

I also don't see any indication that he might be about to change those tactics.  What leads you to think he might?

[MarcusX]

6 hours ago, Robbored said:

You’re spot on Jackie.

There aren’t many other Championship teams that Conway would get into let alone a PL outfit. He’s still a young guy who’s learning his craft and another season or two at City would really improve his game, particularly his finishing.

If he hits the 20 goal mark next season then the PL will take note and his value will increase significantly.

I dont think there's any guarentee that another season or two at City will improve him. He's got worse under Manning IMO because we don't play to his strengths. I think he'd get in half the teams in this league, and if went somewhere that played to his style he'd improve.

I can't see him hitting 20 goals in our team, the way we've played this season. That style may change next season

[Natchfever]

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

I look at Conway and on the basis he may want to step up a level what does he bring to the party currently that you would need in the Prem? Blistering pace? No. Outstanding movement? Good but Prem standard? Hold up play? Definitely not. Great technique? Not seeing that. Finishing? Again, good at our level (he does miss a few) but Prem standard, not sure about that.

He needs to work on a number of things to get there, the only question is whether that’s with us or elsewhere. If a nailed on top 6 Champ side wants him (only three or four of those) they will be expecting instant results.

Or Rangers maybe.

[Numero Uno]

Just now, Natchfever said:

Or Rangers maybe.

Quite possibly but if you have ambition you are using the SPL as a stepping stone, no different from the Championship. The problem there is the lower end of that league is of League 1 standard (just look at the previous clubs of the players) and scoring tap-ins against some of those sides won’t improve his game to the level needed imo. I look at Rabbi Matondo (huge stand out at Academy level) who was considered the next bright young thing and, I could be proven totally wrong, wonder how close joining Rangers has put him to Prem clubs circling?

[KegCity]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Quite possibly but if you have ambition you are using the SPL as a stepping stone, no different from the Championship. The problem there is the lower end of that league is of League 1 standard (just look at the previous clubs of the players) and scoring tap-ins against some of those sides won’t improve his game to the level needed imo. I look at Rabbi Matondo (huge stand out at Academy level) who was considered the next bright young thing and, I could be proven totally wrong, wonder how close joining Rangers has put him to Prem clubs circling?

He would be getting to play in the Champions League next season if he went to Celtic or Rangers. Going to one of those two would be a step up.

[Natchfever]

22 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Quite possibly but if you have ambition you are using the SPL as a stepping stone, no different from the Championship. The problem there is the lower end of that league is of League 1 standard (just look at the previous clubs of the players) and scoring tap-ins against some of those sides won’t improve his game to the level needed imo. I look at Rabbi Matondo (huge stand out at Academy level) who was considered the next bright young thing and, I could be proven totally wrong, wonder how close joining Rangers has put him to Prem clubs circling?

Rangers an obvious step up from us though, with an enhanced chance of a full cap.

[Robbored]

“Has he improved?  I’d say Manning’s system has stifled Tommy”

In terms of Conway developing as a striker Manning has certainly had a significant effect by highlighting what runs he can make, what spaces to look for and how to utilising them - whether or no the ball reached him is down to Mannings style and/or his teammates not playing him in.

[The Coach]

If Tommy was going to sign a new deal I think he would have done it by now. Therefore firmly believe he will be gone this summer or he will run down his contract next year. 

I can’t see a PL club coming for him so it’s going to have to be a sideways step to another Championship club. Unless a side like Rangers want him.

If I’m Tommy. I personally wouldn’t sign an extension. It’s become apparent Manning isn’t playing to Tommy’s strength’s so he has justification to want to leave. Even a sideways step to another championship club that can get more out of him may support Tommy’s career to get into the PL. 

[Kid in the Riot]

34 minutes ago, KegCity said:

He would be getting to play in the Champions League next season if he went to Celtic or Rangers. Going to one of those two would be a step up.

CL qualification rounds, if it's Rangers. And Scottish clubs have proven themselves to be very bad at qualifying in those preliminary rounds. 

Also, as from 2025-26 season Scotland will lose its auto qualification spot to the CL - to the Czech Republic. 

 

[KegCity]

6 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

CL qualification rounds, if it's Rangers. And Scottish clubs have proven themselves to be very bad at qualifying in those preliminary rounds. 

Also, as from 2025-26 season Scotland will lose its auto qualification spot to the CL - to the Czech Republic. 

 

If they fail to qualify do they drop to the Europa League?

[Carey 6]

I really rate Conway, I expected a bit more from him this season though. 

I'm hopeful of him staying but I don't see it happening.

I only recall a couple of occasions where a contract offer has been on the table for a long time and that was Reid & Scott, neither ended up signing.

Am I missing anyone who we waited on to sign for a while before they eventually did? I can't think of any. 

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

“Has he improved?  I’d say Manning’s system has stifled Tommy”

In terms of Conway developing as a striker Manning has certainly had a significant effect by highlighting what runs he can make, what spaces to look for and how to utilising them - whether or no the ball reached him is down to Mannings style and/or his teammates not playing him in.

Do you not think he’d learned a lot of that already, or under Jason Euell.

Tommy admitted himself that most of the work had been done on learning Manning’s defensive / without the ball stuff, so I’m not sure how true your comment is!

[Kid in the Riot]

34 minutes ago, KegCity said:

He would be getting to play in the Champions League next season if he went to Celtic or Rangers. Going to one of those two would be a step up.

CL qualification rounds, if it's Rangers. And Scottish clubs have proven themselves to be very bad at qualifying in those preliminary rounds. 

Also, as from 2025-26 season Scotland will lose its auto qualification spot to the CL - to the Czech Republic. 

 

[Robbored]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Do you not think he’d learned a lot of that already, or under Jason Euell.

Tommy admitted himself that most of the work had been done on learning Manning’s defensive / without the ball stuff, so I’m not sure how true your comment is!

He also said how helpful Manning had been in advising him on his  positional game and where he’d be the most effective which was pretty much in the middle of the box.

Seems like six of one and half a dozen of the other………

[Silvio Dante]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

Thanks for doing the contract digging.  At its simplest we have Semenyo and Scott 4 year deals rather than 3 year deals, and we reaped a fantastic fee for Scott and a pretty decent one for Semenyo.

That extra year for Conway (and Bell) would’ve given us more bargaining power.

At its simplest yes, but there are a few key points here for me:

- Semenyo was still on his original deal and with 18 months left. It’s not a dissimilar situation to Conway in terms of stage of contract at the time it looks like he’s leaving. At the time he had two years left he’d scored 2 championship goals (remember the “Semenyo is not a striker”) thread. Although I always liked him, I can equally see there wasn’t a compelling reason to extend before 21-22 (particularly as we were still in Covid) and it was just that his explosion came at an inopportune time in respect of his contract.

So, Semenyo - I’m not sure it did give us bargaining power over that we do over Conway. The original deal was unusually long for an 18 year old and on a Sod’s Law basis, had we given him a “standard” 3 year deal we may have renewed and had him on a longer deal when Bournemouth came in.

- Scott is, and always should be, viewed as an exception. Three games played and given a four year deal but even then you could see he was as sure as a sure thing could be - and again, the contract length is unusual for an 18 year old

- And that’s for me where we get to the nub. We don’t want to be in a position where we are giving each 18 year old a 4 year deal because of the dropoff - and I think everyone acknowledges that Tommy and Sam are below Antoine and Alex. The three year deal at the start is sensible (and lower is often given), but then by the time they get to their second or third contract, they don’t want to sign longer than three years as they are established players and always have negotiating room. Look at how often we make signings for more than a three year deal - it’s not often.

So, for me, the duration of deals we gave Sam and Tommy feels right day one. An extra year would have been nice for negotiating but you’re giving that deal to someone who wasn’t a sure thing. Then once the first deal is in play, it’s into normal process.

I’m viewing the longer contract as nice in this case but ultimately quite a risky move in practice unless it is a Scott.

 

[INCRED]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

“Has he improved?  I’d say Manning’s system has stifled Tommy”

In terms of Conway developing as a striker Manning has certainly had a significant effect by highlighting what runs he can make, what spaces to look for and how to utilising them - whether or no the ball reached him is down to Mannings style and/or his teammates not playing him in.

Why is it always the head coaches fault? Good strikers should be able to adapt to different styles & formations 

If they are found to not be able to adapt regardless of coaching then they will usually be replaced by players who can 

If TC goes this summer then good luck to the lad but he has many limitations and flaws in his game still and until he addresses those he will not be a 20 goal a season striker for any club at this level or above IMHO

I would like him to sign a new contract and continue to work on his game and be that 20 goal a season striker but I fear whoever is advising him is not focussing on TC the footballer but more so TC the cash cow 

[George Rs]

.Think it’s quite clear to see Tommys off the ball work has improved under LM, his anticipation and ability to lead a press are very impressive at his age imo. 

Will be interesting to see what happens, as i don’t think he will go to another championship team but also don’t think he quite has the required pedigree to get a premier league move yet.

I do hope he makes a decison though, so we can either extend his contract or offload him with enough time to get a replacement and avoid losing him in the last week of a window and scramble for a replacement. 

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, INCRED said:

Why is it always the head coaches fault? Good strikers should be able to adapt to different styles & formations 

If they are found to not be able to adapt regardless of coaching then they will usually be replaced by players who can 

If TC goes this summer then good luck to the lad but he has many limitations and flaws in his game still and until he addresses those he will not be a 20 goal a season striker for any club at this level or above IMHO

I would like him to sign a new contract and continue to work on his game and be that 20 goal a season striker but I fear whoever is advising him is not focussing on TC the footballer but more so TC the cash cow 

It’s not about Tommy not adapting, it is about a head-coach adopting a style (generally speaking) that until Easter that doesn’t service his striker particularly well, ie the system created less chances, and less chances of quality.  So again, generally speaking, it’s not Tommy’s fault.

FWIW I think Tommy is a good striker, hence why he has “interest” from other clubs, some further up the pecking  order.

The other reason I do lay some fault at Manning’s feet is he actually said that he would create chances of a type that Tommy would thrive on, ie, getting his wide players / full-backs in behind for cut-backs, but hasn’t delivered that.  He then changed tack and said Tommy would have to get used to different chances.

Edited May 15 by Davefevs

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 hours ago, George Rs said:

.Think it’s quite clear to see Tommys off the ball work has improved under LM, his anticipation and ability to lead a press are very impressive at his age imo. 

Will be interesting to see what happens, as i don’t think he will go to another championship team but also don’t think he quite has the required pedigree to get a premier league move yet.

I do hope he makes a decison though, so we can either extend his contract or offload him with enough time to get a replacement and avoid losing him in the last week of a window and scramble for a replacement. 

Pressing was a huge strength of Tommy before Manning arrived so it was always likely he'd get even better at it as he ages. 

And considering we switched from a press to a block then I'm not sure how much credit can be given to LM for Tommys pressing abilities. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

He also said how helpful Manning had been in advising him on his  positional game and where he’d be the most effective which was pretty much in the middle of the box.

Seems like six of one and half a dozen of the other………

So all this stuff you're saying Manning has taught him yet Tommy has a poorer return from open play this season than last season. 

[Numero Uno]

4 hours ago, KegCity said:

He would be getting to play in the Champions League next season if he went to Celtic or Rangers. Going to one of those two would be a step up.

Celtic and Rangers as clubs are a step up, playing Ross County and possibly Montrose isn’t. They would get obliterated in the Championship. If City drew any team below the big 2 up there in a cup match you wouldn’t be shitting your pants that’s for sure. Aside from money and a few European matches I’m not sure if such a move would benefit him in the long run from a career point of view?

[Numero Uno]

2 hours ago, George Rs said:

.Think it’s quite clear to see Tommys off the ball work has improved under LM, his anticipation and ability to lead a press are very impressive at his age imo. 

Will be interesting to see what happens, as i don’t think he will go to another championship team but also don’t think he quite has the required pedigree to get a premier league move yet.

I do hope he makes a decison though, so we can either extend his contract or offload him with enough time to get a replacement and avoid losing him in the last week of a window and scramble for a replacement. 

Yet is the important word. Wherever he goes he’s got work to do. I’m not having this exaggerated narrative that Manning has somehow ruined the finished article, and I have just as many reservations on Liam as the next fan. I do agree with Liam to an extent, if Tommy wants to be here then great, as he will improve, and if he doesn’t then move on. The club won’t disintegrate without him. If he was on a longer contract, which is on the hierarchy anyway, and he was unhappy it wouldn’t help us much except we might get a bit more dosh if we could move him on.

[GrahamC]

10 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Celtic and Rangers as clubs are a step up, playing Ross County and possibly Montrose isn’t. They would get obliterated in the Championship. If City drew any team below the big 2 up there in a cup match you wouldn’t be shitting your pants that’s for sure. Aside from money and a few European matches I’m not sure if such a move would benefit him in the long run from a career point of view?

Montrose aren’t going to be in the Scottish Prem any time soon, as they aren’t even in the Championship.

Joining either of the Old Firm is definitely a step up, like joining Ajax would be, even though the overall standard of the league is inferior.

[INCRED]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It’s not about Tommy not adapting, it is about a head-coach adopting a style (generally speaking) that until Easter that doesn’t service his striker particularly well, ie the system created less chances, and less chances of quality.  So again, generally speaking, it’s not Tommy’s fault.

FWIW I think Tommy is a good striker, hence why he has “interest” from other clubs, some further up the pecking  order.

The other reason I do lay some fault at Manning’s feet is he actually said that he would create chances of a type that Tommy would thrive on, ie, getting his wide players / full-backs in behind for cut-backs, but hasn’t delivered that.  He then changed tack and said Tommy would have to get used to different chances.

And of the chances he has had and in particular 1 v 1 with the keeper he has a poor conversion rate 

I can recall numerous opportunities and good scoring chances he had and if he had taken a greater proportion he would have had another 5-6 goals to his name 

It’s not all about tap ins in the 6yd box!