The Bcfc Academy....

[RedUn]

Just answer this if we never had an academy would we start one

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We never had an academy before 1998 ... just as well we started one when we did ... I shudder to think how much worse off we'd be now, paying only journeymen and lads no better than the Gas have had.

See, I knew you wouldn't do those sums.

[Guest ashtonyate]

We never had an academy before 1998 ... just as well we started one when we did ... I shudder to think how much worse off we'd be now, paying only journeymen and lads no better than the Gas have had.

See, I knew you wouldn't do those sums.

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No but we alway had young players coming through the gas got most of there players from Wales And we got ours from Scotland,and It did not cost the 675k it cost the club now a year As the west country is not a hot bed of talent for football players I don't no why we bother

[Mr Mosquito]

No but we alway had young players coming through  the gas got most of there players from Wales And we got ours from Scotland,and It did not cost the 675k it cost the club now a year As the west country is not a hot bed of talent for football players I don't no why we bother

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Market conditions for footballers have changed. BCFC does not need to train young players in an expensive to run academy when we can get trained players on Bosman's for free. BCFC brought in 7 good players in the close season for less than £200,000 when it costs £675,000 per annum to run the academy. We got over 15,000 paying customers yesterday because we signed Marcus Stewart not because we have an academy !!!!!

To put it bluntly - stuff the academy, and all its expensive trappings, and concentrate resources on the first team for us to win promotion.

[RedUn]

it costs £675,000 per annum to run the academy

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... really, because ashtonyate says so?!

I think you'll find the net cost per annum has been a lot less than that; also that the net cost over and above what we'd have to find to a run a mandatory CoE is peanuts compared to what it would cost to replace the home grown talent with higher-waged imports.

Go win the lottery, clear the debts then can do what you will.

[Mr Mosquito]

... really, because ashtonyate says so?!

I think you'll find the net cost per annum has been a lot less than that; also that the net cost over and above what we'd have to find to a run a mandatory CoE is peanuts compared to what it would cost to replace the home grown talent with higher-waged imports.

Go win the lottery, clear the debts then can do what you will.

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I've got to admit that the figure of £675,000 came from ashtonyate

As BCFC wont come clean on the cost there have been several guestimates on the cost of the academy on this forum ranging from around £500,000 to £2 million per annum.

[RedUn]

As BCFC wont come clean on the cost there have been several guestimates on the cost of the academy on this forum ranging from around £500,000 to £2 million per annum.

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IIRC Milo (who knows about these things) stated that last year's costs had come down to ~£350k with the move to St.Georges.

[redsontour]

IIRC Milo (who knows about these things) stated that last year's costs had come down to ~£350k with the move to St.Georges.

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You mean 1/3 of a Lita? Oh please not, that would stop these completely uninformed views from the likes of Ashton Yate and Goblin...chuck in a few of the Nike believers and my life would be over...Now, where was that 20 Mil i need to get promoted....??

[Mr Mosquito]

IIRC Milo (who knows about these things) stated that last year's costs had come down to ~£350k with the move to St.Georges.

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£350,000 seems a reasonable sum, and as you state, probably not much more than a mandatory excellence centre. However, that sum probably does not incorporate dislocation of resources from essentials such as scouting networks and the first team - costs nonetheless. I just hope that Tinman is not under pressure to field academy 'starlets' in the first team just to make the academy look worthwhile. A pity also that the academy and our reserves coaches have not trained Cotterill to put in decent crosses - almost everything he crossed went straight to the keeper or even out of play.

[Nibor]

£350,000 seems a reasonable sum, and as you state, probably not much more than a mandatory excellence centre. However, that sum probably does not incorporate dislocation of resources from essentials such as scouting networks and the first team - costs nonetheless. I just hope that Tinman is not under pressure to field academy 'starlets' in the first team just to make the academy look worthwhile. A pity also that the academy and our reserves coaches have not trained Cotterill to put in decent crosses - almost everything he crossed went straight to the keeper or even out of play.

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You're making things up RG. What dislocation of resources from scouting networks? Details please.

Tinnion under pressure to play academy players yet allowed to make 7 new signings?

Cotterill not being a great crosser at the age of 17 despite being one of the best on the pitch for most of the game = terrible coaching?

If those arguements are the best you can do then the academy is in no danger whatsoever.

Clutching at straws.

Nibor

[Nibor]

double post.

[Mr Mosquito]

You're making things up RG.  What dislocation of resources from scouting networks?  Details please.

Tinnion under pressure to play academy players yet allowed to make 7 new signings?

Cotterill not being a great crosser at the age of 17 despite being one of the best on the pitch for most of the game = terrible coaching?

If those arguements are the best you can do then the academy is in no danger whatsoever.

Clutching at straws.

Nibor

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I cede defeat to Nibor and RedUn - the sacred BCFC academy cow is safe for now. But only if, as RedUn suggests, the academy costs less than £400,000 per annum

[Guest ashtonyate]

The 675k figure Came from Steve Lansdown not me in a reply in his forum,people say I don't give true facts but over the last year I think I have put a case together for the academy be shut down.

Now if you agree or not thats up to you. Since the club has had an academy we have been stuck in this 3 division, to me It points to the fact that money has gone into the academy instead of the football team.

The players we produce don't stay with the club,we have to put up with player learning there trade when they get to a good standard, they have a bit put into there contract that they can be sold.It crap And I still ask if we never had an academy would we start one???

[RedUn]

The 675k figure Came from Steve Lansdown not me in a reply in his forum,

And the net figure just came down somewhat from that figure didn't it? (hint: Lita), and you'll have missed the point about St.Georges then?

people say I don't give true facts

True.

but over the last year I think I have put a case together for the academy be shut down.

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Also true - you definately think that.

[RedUn]

I cede defeat to Nibor and RedUn -

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Righty, now about this Wessex Republic ...

[Dorset_Cider]

Bitter experience RG? ... the trick is to be less of a loser in the girl's eyes.

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Have we been better though RedUn are we less of a loser?

Looks a bit like we went out with them first but they liked fast cars and we still only have a reliant robin?

[Mr Mosquito]

Have we been better though RedUn are we less of a loser?

Looks a bit like we went out with them first but they liked fast cars and we still only have a reliant robin?

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Dorset_Cider, that's a brilliant analogy

I still wholly agree with ashtonyate on the question of the academy (especially his last post so far in this thread) but Nibor and RedUn have given a costed argument that I can't argue with as I haven't seen the BCFC accounts relating to the cost of our academy. I had to cede defeat on the acedemy sacred cow question but even with RedUn's costing the academy is still an expensive luxury for a club losing money.

[Mr Mosquito]

Righty, now about this Wessex Republic ...

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"And I still ask if we never had an academy would we start one???"

- RedUn, please could you answer ashtonyate's key question above, Wessex remains a Republic and this is a diversionary topic from the main issue of the academy.

[Milo]

When I posted up information recently about the cost of the Academy I was going from memory as I was on a different computer at the time. On double checking my facts, here's where I got my figure of around £380K from:

The City Acacdemy, Bristol has three business sponsors - Mr John Laycock on behalf of Bristol City Football Club, the University of the West of England and the Bristol Chambers of Commerce. In total, these three business sponsors "donated £384,297 during the period under review to assist the Academy to achieve its objectives".

Source. The City Academy, Bristol, Report and Financial Statements, Year Ended 31 August 2004.

Reading further down the accounts, however, the three sponsors' donations are separated and show John Laycock, Bristol City Football Club as £270,000.

All of which probably raises more questions than it answers. The first question is why the accounts state "John Laycock on behalf of" rather than simply Bristol City Football Club? Does this mean that John Laycock is funding the academy with personal donations and the cost to the Club is £0? If so, this smilie: is an understatement.

Other questions include whether Academy coaches and scouts are paid for by the City Academy or whether they are on the BCFC pay roll. I seem to remember an article suggesting that there were around 3 coaches so this might cost an extra £90K or so. Could there be other associated costs?

I'd be interested to know how long ago the £675K figure was quoted. The scholars used to go to Clifton College and the academic qualifications of the lads coming through used to have our 'A' Level results amongst the best of all Academies. Clifton College is not cheap.

If we argue the point that BCFC (John Laycock) pays £270K to the City Academy and incurs costs of, say, £100K ( ) we're up to £370K. To put that figure into perspective our turnover (income received) in the last accounts was £6,170,000 so the cost would be 6% of turnover. And if, as it appears, the bulk of that is a personal donation by John Laycock, then the cost is even less in percentage terms.

If you're incurring a cost, it's because you hope the benefits will outweigh the costs. The benefits include;

an investment in the local community as kids benefit from the support structure

development of players capable of playing in the top divisions without paying transfer fees

providing a team for supporters consisting of exciting, talented youngsters

transfer fees receivable when players are sold

attendance at the Academy Exit Trials where bargains (Lita) can be found

So the question has to be, do the benefits outweigh the costs? And surely there can only be one answer?

[RedUn]

So the question has to be, do the benefits outweigh the costs? And surely there can only be one answer?

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And that answer is "yes" - particularly when you compare it to the cost/benefit of the more players sourced from elsewhere.

[RedUn]

"And I still ask if we never had an academy would we start one???"

- RedUn, please could you answer ashtonyate's key question above, Wessex remains a Republic and this is a diversionary topic from the main issue of the academy. 

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The more assiduous readers of this thread might have noticed I did so in message #30 - for those who need it spelling out very slowly my answer is Y ... E ... S

Now has ashtonyate done the sums I suggested earlier or has hell frozen over yet?

[Guest ashtonyate]

When I posted up information recently about the cost of the Academy I was going from memory as I was on a different computer at the time. On double checking my facts, here's where I got my figure of around £380K from:

The City Acacdemy, Bristol has three business sponsors - Mr John Laycock on behalf of Bristol City Football Club, the University of the West of England and the Bristol Chambers of Commerce. In total, these three business sponsors "donated £384,297 during the period under review to assist the Academy to achieve its objectives".

Source. The City Academy, Bristol, Report and Financial Statements, Year Ended 31 August 2004.

Reading further down the accounts, however, the three sponsors' donations are separated and show John Laycock, Bristol City Football Club as £270,000.

All of which probably raises more questions than it answers. The first question is why the accounts state "John Laycock on behalf of" rather than simply Bristol City Football Club? Does this mean that John Laycock is funding the academy with personal donations and the cost to the Club is £0? If so, this smilie:    is an understatement.

Other questions include whether Academy coaches and scouts are paid for by the City Academy or whether they are on the BCFC pay roll. I seem to remember an article suggesting that there were around 3 coaches so this might cost an extra £90K or so. Could there be other associated costs?

I'd be interested to know how long ago the £675K figure was quoted. The scholars used to go to Clifton College and the academic qualifications of the lads coming through used to have our 'A' Level results amongst the best of all Academies. Clifton College is not cheap.

If we argue the point that BCFC (John Laycock) pays £270K to the City Academy and incurs costs of, say, £100K ( ) we're up to £370K. To put that figure into perspective our turnover (income received) in the last accounts was £6,170,000 so the cost would be 6% of turnover. And if, as it appears, the bulk of that is a personal donation by John Laycock, then the cost is even less in percentage terms.

If you're incurring a cost, it's because you hope the benefits will outweigh the costs. The benefits include;

an investment in the local community as kids benefit from the support structure

development of players capable of playing in the top divisions without paying transfer fees

providing a team for supporters consisting of exciting, talented youngsters

transfer fees receivable when players are sold

attendance at the Academy Exit Trials where bargains (Lita) can be found

So the question has to be, do the benefits outweigh the costs? And surely there can only be one answer?

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Well the figure that Lansdown gave was after 2004 it was last year when he posted it??also Milo smoke and mirror figure don't mean a thing its what it cost the club in real terms that matters.

The one thing that makes me think its higher is our club over the last few years have been involved in play offs and Ldv finals as well as having good crowds so why are we over 5 mill in debt??

When we had a lot more Ex academy player playing for us.It proves that having your own grown players is not a cheap option anyway Also in colin skuse year he was the only one to be good enough too be taken on how much did it cost to put the rest through the academy

[redsontour]

Your campaign kind of falls flat when you consider ambition...

1) You want us to be a Premiership club

2) All Premiership clubs must have an academy

Frankly, I have no idea why I continue to bite at these barking Academy threads but I suspect it is because I worry more than two people may start believing them

[annanimo]

a) I dare to post ideas contrary to excepted beliefs.

b) ...why have an academy when we can poach talent from other clubs like Swindon? Brooker and Heywood were great buys and this proves the talent is out there to take us forward if we look.

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a) I respect you for this and think the forum needs more people with independence of judgement. I certainly enjoy my debates with people like yourself who possess some individuality of thought.

b) Yes, we can just go out and buy players. But where do these players come from? from other clubs' academies. The problem is not with the academy - it's with football.

Our academy produces players like Lita - this is a success. That Lita would rather go somewhere else to earn a higher wage probably means that we've been too successful in producing talent. The real problem is that players with ambition will always be attracted by higher salaries and, let's face it, whatever level BCFC are playing at there will always be clubs above us to tempt promising talent away.

[Milo]

Well the figure that Lansdown gave was after 2004 it was last year when he posted it??also Milo smoke and mirror figure don't mean a thing its what it cost the club in real terms that matters.

The one thing that makes me think its higher is our club over the last few years have been involved in play offs and Ldv finals as well as having good crowds so why are we over 5 mill in debt??

When we had a lot more Ex academy player playing for us.It proves that having your own grown players is not a cheap option anyway Also in colin skuse year he was the only one to be good enough too be taken on how much did it cost to put the rest through the academy

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"Smoke and mirrors" is a little harsh when I've done some research and quoted my source. Especially as you're quoting a source of SteveL on this forum and yet you cannot be bothered to use the search facility to back up your quote - why don't you post a link to it?

I'd argue that the principle reason for our recent historic underperformance relates to the Club doing what you advocate and splashing out a fortune on experienced professionals during the tail end of Ward, Benny and Pulis. The hangover of that exercise took Wilson two years to turn around, followed by two unlucky Wilson promotion attempts and last season.

In my opinion, the academy products that matured in Wilson's last two seasons, who are all now mainly playing higher level football (see above) were capable of taking us up, it just didn't happen. All it does is back up the fact that football is a game - you cannot blame the academy for failing to get promotion (which is the other reason we're in so much debt).

[Guest ashtonyate]

SteveL Aug 8 2004, 8:47 PM Post #2

Chairman

Group: BCFC Officials & Staff

Joined: 24-October 03

Member No.: 5

The academy costs for the last 2 years were:-

2003 £672k

2004 £654k

We do receive some grants which we would get even if we did not have an academy and we do look to generate income from elsewhere towards it,which again we could possibly get without the academy, so I have not netted those off against the above.

Steve.

PS I do not have previous figures to hand.

I have just been on his web page and here it is

[Guest ashtonyate]

SteveL  Aug 8 2004, 8:47 PM Post #2 

Chairman

Group: BCFC Officials & Staff

Joined: 24-October 03

Member No.: 5

The academy costs for the last 2 years were:-

2003 £672k

2004 £654k

We do receive some grants which we would get even if we did not have an academy and we do look to generate income from elsewhere towards it,which again we could possibly get without the academy, so I have not netted those off against the above.

Steve.

PS I do not have previous figures to hand. 

I have just been on his web page and here it is

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Now Have you all seen this post Red Un, Milo, and the rest what I said is true do you agree

[purple_monkey_dishwasher]

Now Have you all seen this post Red Un, Milo, and the rest what I said is true do you agree

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What you have said in this thread is that "675k it cost the club now a year". I shall ignore that you always used to claim closer to a million...

Steve Lansdown's figures are for previous years and are less than 675K. Overheads for the Academy are reduced this year due to significant income from transfer fees, sponsorship and donations from City2000 etc. Also, I believe that the new facilities at St George will reduce the club's expenditure even more (I admit I do not know this for certain and will accept any proof to the contrary).

Therefore, the Academy does not now cost the club 675K a year so what you said is not true. Happy?

[redsontour]

Now Have you all seen this post Red Un, Milo, and the rest what I said is true do you agree

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As you are still being selective...please answer the following;

Do you wish to see, or believe it will happen, Bristol City reaching the Premiership?

That is pretty straightforward

If your answer is yes, then the club must under FA legislation operate an official sanctioned academy of the structure we currently have.

If the answer is NO then I guess we will settle for mediocrity and stay where we are..but at least you could then keep these nonsense threads going.

[Guest ashtonyate]

As you are still being selective...please answer the following;

Do you wish to see, or believe it will happen, Bristol City reaching the Premiership?

That is pretty straightforward

If your answer is yes, then the club must under FA legislation operate an official sanctioned academy of the structure we currently have.

If the answer is NO then I guess we will settle for mediocrity and stay where we are..but at least you could then keep these nonsense threads going.

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I think we are a very long way from the prem so I would cross that bridge when we come to it I don't think a team would be stoped from going into the prem without an academy and I am sure there are some clubs who don't have them in the prem Just one point how many of our ex academy players would hold their own in the prem may be 1 Rosener after 6/7 years

Now Monkey I have showed you were my figures came from now show were yours are coming from also you can just put Lita money for this year its got to go against all the years he was here and all the players who have not made.

[zookeeper]

Now Monkey I have showed you were my figures came from now show were yours are coming from also you can just put Lita money for this year its got to go against all the years he was here and all the players who have not made.

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I think the "monkey" and Milo were trying to say that this year costs were reduced and these are the figure Milo was producing.

Also there is a cost to running any sort of outh set up. We would still have to pay a sum which would be at least £50,000 towards it.